[turbo]

Originally Posted by shortbread

If Tata does offer it 4x4 and kit it right the Gravitas/Safari should be a very capable off road machine, infact hard to think of a 3 row sub 20 lac rival in its segment capable of the same.

There's no chance any Monocoque can ever do the things that a Ladder on Frame 4x4 can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p-P2bq3wjQ

[museycal]

If branding the car in question as "Safari" results in sustained decent sales run for TAMO (maybe 800 - 1200 units per month over Harrier sales), there is nothing wrong with this re-branding. Looking at it this way, the new Safari will bring tangible additions of increased seating capacity over Harrier, which in its second avatar, is more sorted vehicle as per the review and ownership reports.

The company doesn't owe it to specifically anyone on the pedigree of the brand Safari. To a prospective buyer who isn't deep on 4x4, AWD and off-roading (which high end Seltos, Creta and Hector sales figure prove), prospect of owing a Tata Safari may yet swing the decision in Tata's favor.

And, I didn't realize most of us here have already seen, tested and experienced the next-gen Scorpio and XUV 5OO to dismiss the Gravitas/Safari already.

Does this feel like a last minute hack job? Yes, it does. But for a product already written off months ago on forum like ours, seems like Tata set a cat among pigeons. Not a bad way to stir some excitement in a 'DOA' product.

[condor]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Wrong, the Land Rover D8 platform that the Harrier/Gravitas uses, is the same platform the likes of the Freelander, Evoque, Disco Sport is based on.

From what I remember, the Harrier's OMEGARC platform is based on the D8. It is not the same.

If it was the same, then we would have a 4x4 Harrier. Or AWD. So I will believe the 4x4 part WHEN Harrier comes with 4x4 / AWD, and without changes to the current platform.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by turbo

There's no chance any Monocoque can ever do the things that a Ladder on Frame 4x4 can.

And vice versa, especially when it comes to ride and handling. You can imgaine taking a high speed bend in a Scorpio!

Monocoque offers the best compromise in real world conditions. The Gravitas/Safari would be aiming for the XUV500, Scorpio/Bolero serve a different market altogether.

[turbo]

very capable off road machine, infact hard to think of a 3 row sub 20 lac rival in its segment capable of the same.

Originally Posted by shortbread

And vice versa, especially when it comes to ride and handling. You can imgain taking a high speed bend in a Scorpio!

Talk about moving the goalposts.

Monocoque offers the best compromise in real world conditions. The Gravitas/Safari would be aiming for the XUV500, Scorpio/Bolero serve a different market altogether.

I dont know if you're familiar with the Indian automotive landscape (going by your location, seems unlikely), but the Safari has always been a Scorpio competitor, and the Aria/Hexa were XUV competition.

[Sebring]

You must remember that Hexa did not do well in the first outing. Though, after its demise, there has been a bit of a clamour in Whatsapp groups. It's not easy to sell a car that hasn't clicked in the first attempt, (in the Indian context). I'm sure TAMO are weighing this aspect

Originally Posted by Strangerintown

What this announcement does however also ensure is that we are unlikely to see the Safari edition Hexa. Could this mean that the Hexa resurrection is off the cards?

[Singh101]

Originally Posted by krishnakarthik1

What's shame in that? It's good business thinking. The competition is getting better and they thought they had to get an old brand name to add numbers. They can't change the car so they thought at least they can change the name to make it sell a lot more. A couple of thousands of safari's is always better than a couple of hundreds of gravitas's isn't it.

The shame is in shamelessly doing this last minute.

If they had promised and created a buzz about the Safari like they were doing with the Gravitas like- "Look, folks, it's going to be a monocoque and it's going to be based on the Harrier, but we're confident in the platform and we're going to give you a modernized, refined, reliable Safari soon with optional Land Rover-derived AWD", I'd have lauded their efforts. I'd have been excited for it. I'd probably have considered shortlisting it as an upgrade to my 2008 Scorpio 2.6 CRDe.

Instead it's icky..slimy. It feels like it has a grubby businessman's finger grease all over it and that- vexes me.

Originally Posted by krishnakarthik1

Tata must be wondering where all those were when the safari was still around. It became a legend because no one bought it

Well, we ARE nostalgic about the first home-grown SUV of an Indian automaker and it's iconic shape and yet we didn't buy it because Tata didn't care about it! No one wanted to spend 15L on an SUV with interiors from the 90s and no climate control. Tata chose instead to revive the spectacular failure of an automobile- the Aria as the HEXA and discontinued the Safari name! I mean what the hell were they thinking?!

And now they go and do this. Unfortunately, it still reeks of Tata's typical half-assedness (is that even a word?) and it's irksome to me.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by turbo

Talk about moving the goalposts.

I dont know if you're familiar with the Indian automotive landscape (going by your location, seems unlikely), but the Safari has always been a Scorpio competitor, and the Aria/Hexa were XUV competition.

The Gravitas/Safari will be priced north of the Harrier, 18-20 lac+ which is where the XUV500 and its newer version will sit. This is why the word 'segment' is significant.

Scorpio sits in a segment 5lac below, TMLs attempt at competing with the Scorpio was the Sumo Grande.

Originally Posted by condor

From what I remember, the Harrier's OMEGARC platform is based on the D8. It is not the same.

If it was the same, then we would have a 4x4 Harrier. Or AWD. So I will believe the 4x4 part WHEN Harrier comes with 4x4 / AWD, and without changes to the current platform.

From what I remember of the OMEGARC's presentation TML mentioned AWD will not be offered to 'keep costs down'. I have never seen a statement saying the platform is not capable of AWD.

[turbo]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Use your common sense rather than shoot from the hip!

Scorpio sits in a segment 5lac below, TMLs attempt at competing with the Scorpio was the Sumo Grande.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/suvs-...mpetition.html (Mahindra Scorpio vs the competition)

Please show me your ultra mega fail Grande in this list.

PS: Instead of telling people to use common-sense, perhaps you need to wake up and smell the coffee. The Safari was always positioned as a Scorpio competitor, and pricing the Safari at 20-ish lakhs will only make the Scorpio look tremendous VFM.

PPS: Also see

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/suvs-...vs-others.html (Tata Hexa vs XUV500 vs Innova Crysta vs others)

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ri-please.html (Mahindra Scorpio vs Sumo NOT Tata Safari please)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmnrOA7XFvQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLtgt6F2wyE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KOG3rhbKeo

[Singh101]

Originally Posted by shortbread

This is why the word 'segment' is significant.

TMLs attempt at competing with the Scorpio was the Sumo Grande.

The XUV is a more premium offering than the Scorpio for sure but there is now significant overlap between the cheapest XUV and the top-end Scorpio you can buy today. That will not change even with the next gen launches. What I'm saying is that "segments" get quite grey in that price bracket. High end sub-4m crossovers can overlap with their cheapest bigger cousin, for example.

However, your suggestion that the Scorpio and Safari weren't competing in the same segment is absolute malarkey. I don't know what the Grande was but right from launch, the Scorpio had the Safari in its sights. Mahindra kept it fresh with each variant and refresh and Tata just couldn't keep up with them.

[vellatechie]

Originally Posted by Thumping Soul

Oh My! Its arriving this month! Here's the latest from Tata Motors

https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=crJ0Xm7AmK8

Boss: We need to create a teaser for Safari
Intern: Let me start Powerpoint. We will use those fancy fading effects!
Boss: Urmm..
Intern: Ill let you do the voice over
Boss Sold!


Regarding shifting from Gravitas -> Safari shift, this is what I think.

+ves:
1. Safari as a name/brand is much much better than Gravitas. Gravitas is a horrible name for an SUV to begin with
2. It makes great business sense. Milk whatever brand equity SAFARI has left.

-ves:
1. If you ask anyone who still wants a safari pretty much no one wants a stretched Harrier.
2. XUV500 which is right around the corner, with its 4x4, Seltos like HU, Level 1 autonomous driving technology will ensure this is DOA if there is very little to distinguish from standard Harrier
3. Does this mean HEXA is officially dead and there won't be any Safari Edition?

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by Singh101

The XUV is a more premium offering than the Scorpio for sure but there is now significant overlap between the cheapest XUV and the top-end Scorpio you can buy today. That will not change even with the next gen launches. What I'm saying is that "segments" get quite grey in that price bracket. High end sub-4m crossovers can overlap with their cheapest bigger cousin, for example.

True, and this is this is a challenge M&M will face soon when launching the Scorpio and XUV consequently

Originally Posted by Singh101

However, your suggestion that the Scorpio and Safari weren't competing in the same segment is absolute malarkey. I don't know what the Grande was but right from launch, the Scorpio had the Safari in its sights. Mahindra kept it fresh with each variant and refresh and Tata just couldn't keep up with them.

The Scorpio was utilitarian from the get go. Thousands are driven up and down India with yellow boards, this was never Safari's target segment. The Safari was a comfortable 5 seater with two jump seats. Scorpio's predominant sales comes from the taxi sector and Mahindra will only try to reinforce this because its other attempts like the Xylo, Marazzo etc have failed. This is not the space the upcoming Gravitas/Safari will be in and neither will it be priced as such.

[Singh101]

Originally Posted by shortbread

True, and this is this is a challenge M&M will face soon when launching the Scorpio and XUV consequently

Challenge and consequences? To me it sounds like there is something for everybody, give or take a few things here and there. Mahindra nails it's segments perfectly, IMHO.

Originally Posted by shortbread

The Scorpio was utilitarian from the get go. Thousands are driven up and down India with yellow boards, this was never Safari's target segment. The Safari was a comfortable 5 seater with two jump seats. Scorpio's predominant sales comes from the taxi sector and Mahindra will only try to reinforce this because its other attempts like the Xylo, Marazzo etc have failed. This is not the space the upcoming Gravitas/Safari will be in and neither will it be priced as such.

Ah, yes. Just because a vehicle sells in the commercial segment means that it's a "taxi". A Superb is a taxi in the UK and is considered an executive sedan out here. E-classes are Germany's airport run taxis but are supreme luxury yachts in India. So just because the Scorpio does well with a yellow plate, doesn't automatically peg it down to a lower segment. Infact, being trusted by fleet owners means that it's rugged and dependable.

Mahindra nailed both the utilitarian market and the more premium markets with a choice of variants and engines. The M2Di did duty in the yellow plate long haulers while the peppy 2.6 CRDe gave way to the brilliant, refined 2.2 mHawk and kept things fresh up top.

The Harrier already competes with the XUV and I'm glad it's doing well. But if you think that people aren't going to cross-shop between the new gen Scorpio and the Gravitas/Safari while in the market for a "big, 7/8 seat SUV", I don't know what to tell you.

[turbo]

Originally Posted by shortbread

True, and this is this is a challenge M&M will face soon when launching the Scorpio and XUV consequently



The Scorpio was utilitarian from the get go. Thousands are driven up and down India with yellow boards, this was never Safari's target segment. The Safari was a comfortable 5 seater with two jump seats. Scorpio's predominant sales comes from the taxi sector and Mahindra will only try to reinforce this.

I don't see Mahindra having any problems, as they are two different well differentiated products having two separate functions. One is a rugged ladder-on-frame 4x4, and the other a monocoque crossover for city slickers.

The Scorpio was relatively utilitarian, true.
But contrary to your biased view, it was never a taxi.

[Turbo_head]

Originally Posted by condor

From what I remember, the Harrier's OMEGARC platform is based on the D8. It is not the same.

If it was the same, then we would have a 4x4 Harrier. Or AWD. So I will believe the 4x4 part WHEN Harrier comes with 4x4 / AWD, and without changes to the current platform.

Tata's decision of not to bringing an AWD/4X4 Harrier is not due to any limitations of the Platform but due to the market for AWD being miniscule.