[Mustang_Boss]

Victims of BS6
- All Diesel cars from MS portfolio.
- VW Ameo and its sister brand products
- Renault & Nissan portfolio.
- And now, the most sought & excellent D segment cars from VW Group.

Tata/Jeep is an exception as they are using 2.0 MJD with AdBlue and its understandable.

Only Hyundai/Kia & Mahindra had been successfully meeting the strict emission norms and are able to sell their vehicles without any concern/issue.

How? We all know, Hyundai uses CRDI tech. Is it the primary factor aiding them in meeting the strict emission norms? How about Mahindra? They sell humongous vehicles with almost a diesel only portfolio. How come these two companies are at ease wrt norms while the big long time global players are axing models? Any insights into the details are highly appreciated.

[Goldikam]

Really a sad news!
I was eagerly waiting for the new Octavia last year and even went down to see (& maybe book one) on the launch day.
But the steep price increase stopped me from making that call.

Would be missing this car a lot. Though still open to buy one, if I get at a good price in near future.

[SLK]

There are two impacts:

• As a market, we are becoming smaller (less choices) in real sense. Only the somewhat overpriced C-SUVs will remain as a segment. We are moving backwards in some sense. Chevy, Ford, VW.
• For some people like me, who ventured out of the ordinary become victims of these exits every-time. I bought an Optra and then I replaced it with an Octavia. Not just resale, the spare availability slows down, so does the skillset to repair these relatively more complicated machines.

After owning two such relics, which result into some heartburn, inconvenience and monetary losses, some would refrain from spending large amounts on such cars and would probably settle for something more basic! Who loses? the market, which will further shrink to only the Japanese and Korean surviving. We are in a downwards spiral as far as the depth of the market is concerned.

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

Victims of BS6
Only Hyundai/Kia & Mahindra had been successfully meeting the strict emission norms and are able to sell their vehicles without any concern/issue.

How? We all know, Hyundai uses CRDI tech. Is it the primary factor aiding them in meeting the strict emission norms? How about Mahindra? They sell humongous vehicles with almost a diesel only portfolio. How come these two companies are at ease wrt norms while the big long time global players are axing models? Any insights into the details are highly appreciated.

That is a valid question. While I don't know the answer, I think it is to do with how emission is measured in India. So anything trying to meet global norms becomes too expensive for this market, but some seem to be able to manage how it's done in India.

[abhkop]

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

Victims of BS6
- All Diesel cars from MS portfolio.
- VW Ameo and its sister brand products
- Renault & Nissan portfolio.
- And now, the most sought & excellent D segment cars from VW Group.

Tata/Jeep is an exception as they are using 2.0 MJD with AdBlue and its understandable.

Only Hyundai/Kia & Mahindra had been successfully meeting the strict emission norms and are able to sell their vehicles without any concern/issue.

Two things to look at here.

One is the BS-6 emission regulations which are defined by predefined norms. This is basically done on an engine level. Failing to meet, you are not allowed sell that particular engine in any model.

The second is CAFE regulations which is defined by a complicated formula. For simple understanding, Fuel efficiency, kerb weight and volumes impact the CAFE. This is calculated for all models on a OEM level. Failing to meet, the OEM has to bear a hefty penalty but they are still allowed to sell the vehicles.

Now coming to your point, OEMs such as Renault-Nissan, VW group etc. have optimised their engine line-up. Reason: BS6 upgradation cost + Low volumes doesnot make business case.

Since cost of upgradation of diesel engine to BS-6 is high, almost in the range of 60-100k, diesels doesnot make any sense for R-N & VW considering their lower market share. Also their gasoline engines have been downsized considering they have to achieve better F.E keeping CAFE in mind.

Coming to the case of Maruti, Fiat has decided not to upgrade their 1.3L to BS6 owing to cost. Maruti has developed thier own 1.5L diesel inhouse and launched it in BS4 era. However, they failed to make the engine BS6 compliant. Hence, no diesel in Maruti.

Hyundai and Mahindra have made conscious efforts to make their diesel engines BS6 compliant because of thier higher volumes. Partial costs are anyways passed onto the customer.

[AROO7]

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

How come these two companies are at ease wrt norms while the big long time global players are axing models? Any insights into the details are highly appreciated.

The incentive they have for offering a diesel engine in terms of sales (read more margins) and the volume of diesel-powered cars they sell is reason enough to keep making diesel engine compliant. Also, remember it's not the engine that's the culprit because every problem has a solution some easy some difficult, it's the motivation behind solving the problem that's at play here.

That said, global demand for diesel engines is almost negligible compared to petrol, hybrid, and EVs. So global manufacturers are diverting the R&D money towards electric, hybrid, and hydrogen powertrains, recent examples are Nissan and Hyundai. Thus in the long run I believe even Hyundai/Kia will stop offering diesel and only Mahindra will be left with its diesel engine while Tata will be at the mercy of Fiat for the oil-burner.

[pqr]

Both sedan segments have been on decline since 2010, but these two products from Skoda soldiered on.



Octavia was the one to start this very segment and also happens to be the last. What is more surprising is that Skoda (besides Toyota) has sold 2,419 units of the 4th generation Octavia without a sunroof in a premium category. In India, a sunroof is more of a ‘want’ than a ‘need’!

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

Only Hyundai/Kia & Mahindra had been successfully meeting the strict emission norms and are able to sell their vehicles without any concern/issue.

Is Mahindra not using Adblue?

How? We all know, Hyundai uses CRDI tech. Is it the primary factor aiding them in meeting the strict emission norms? How about Mahindra? They sell humongous vehicles with almost a diesel only portfolio. How come these two companies are at ease wrt norms while the big long time global players are axing models? Any insights into the details are highly appreciated.

All diesel engines are CRDI tech, branding changes between manufacturers.

From what I understand, Tata and Mahindra should be fine with CAFE standards because they also sell EVs(Mahindra to start from Feb 2022). Toyota and Maruti to bet on hybrids for CAFE standards.

Don't know what's happening with Hyundai/Kia, they are not selling EVs(in large number) and their diesels also don't use Adblue.

[aniketi]

Superb and Octavia being phased out soon, Toyota stopped diesel Innova. Ford is already gone. What's going on in Indian automotive industry? What could be the reasons behind such weird decisions?

[tunedv8]

Originally Posted by TusharK

The Skoda Superb and Octavia are among the last remaining D-segment sedans in India and soon, they will be axed. Sources tell us that Skoda will stop producing these models in India in February 2023, with sales ceasing by March 31, 2023.

Attachment 2349364

Link to Team-BHP News

I have always loved the Octavia. I drool uncontrollably over a solid grey RS and is one of wishlist cars. It's sad to see these sedan beauties take the fall.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by AROO7

On a general note push for localization, irrational tax slab, and exorbitant taxes on CBU and CKDs have and eventually will put global products a.k.a value luxury cars out of reach for us mango people. In hindsight, I feel the cars (CR-V, Accord, Santa Fe, Jetta, Passat, and now Octavia and Superb) and manufacturers (Ford) we have lost would have been a benchmark that other manufacturers could have looked upon to match. They would have ensured enough competition and a slew of choices for car buyers. Instead, we have taken a step back.

Couldn't agree more. It's easy to brush this aside as companies unable to compete but we need to see why these companies are unable to compete. The tax structure will have to be rationalized but I don't see that happening anytime soon because very few people in India can afford a car anyway, let alone cars that cost 25-30 lakhs. So, the ones who can afford are cash cows.

India didn't have a tradition of purchasing mass-produced global Japanese cars from Toyota and Honda unlike our neighbors which is why the Hilux, for example, is sold as a halo product in India but as a mass product in say Pakistan or Sri-Lanka. But it does mean that Indians are able to purchase cheaper vehicles developed for India (eg. something like the Tata Ace instead of the Hilux or SUVs like Creta and Nexon that are wildly popular in India instead of Corolla/Civic) which is a luxury not available in many other countries.

[Mustang_Boss]

Originally Posted by abhkop

Two things to look at here.
The second is CAFE regulations which is defined by a complicated formula. For simple understanding, Fuel efficiency, kerb weight and volumes impact the CAFE. This is calculated for all models on a OEM level.

Coming to the case of Maruti, Fiat has decided not to upgrade their 1.3L

Hyundai and Mahindra have made conscious efforts to make their diesel engines BS6 compliant because of thier higher volumes.

Maruti is a leader and they sell cars in all segments.
Cost, yes it is a factor, but for them, having a product in all categories is more important. Hence, they have all sorts of permutations and combinations in their products.

Why would such a company leave a segment? Even though Ignis/Celerio are Dud's they still produce and sell them. It's not always about having a good portfolio. Its always to have overlapping products in their portfolio.

Current market's premium for a diesel engine is 150K - 200K over petrol engine. And still the demand for I20/Venue/Creta diesel buyers is ever increasing. It appears, initial Cost is not a factor for these buyers. So, there are a significant number of takers. Hence this question.

Originally Posted by AROO7

The incentive they have for offering a diesel engine in terms of sales (read more margins) and the volume of diesel-powered cars they sell is reason enough to keep making diesel engine compliant. Also

There are too many takers for Venue/I20/Creta diesels. i couldn't get one and am in the waiting line.
There are many takers and are waiting in the line, who are willing to pay 200k more than their petrol counterparts. So, why would anyone leave such a market? even if they could sell 20-30K diesel cars, the sale price would go up drastically for each unit and so does the profits.

Coming to the fuel part, for every barrel of oil, you get 95L of petrol and 30L of diesel (appx numbers). The country must consume petrol and diesel. Both can co exist with a 3.5:1 ratio. While the west does export diesel to other nations and use it for shipping industry, manufacturing industry and others, we do not have such huge demands, hence its easily acomodatable i guess.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

From what I understand, Tata and Mahindra should be fine with CAFE standards because they also sell EVs(Mahindra to start from Feb 2022). Toyota and Maruti to bet on hybrids for CAFE standards.

Sir, If we consider CAFE statndards, Maruti's emissions per vehicle will always be atleast 2X less than Mahindra's or Tata's. Considering the humongous number of small cars being sold while mahindra sells mostly their 2.2Mhawk. Tata has a huge commercial vehicles presence. While i agree with your views, but the real reason might be different.

All points do make a lot of sense to me, but they don't add up. I think i am missing something.

[acquillew]

I feel bad when I see news such as this. I have owned and loved VW cars. The Skoda Laura L&K was my first powerful/luxury sedan and I have several memories with that car. Of course, owning these cars comes with hassles, high service costs and headaches, but the drive brings smiles each time you find an empty stretch. We as a country are moving towards SUVs and Crossovers and sadly, manufacturers will listen to the market. Who would have thought of a 180 mm ground clearance Skoda sedan in 2010?

Here is a picture from times when boxy shapes were still trendy. Nostalgic:

[chandu]

I know a lot of people are upset that the octavia and the superb are going away but I fail to understand how Skoda who introduced the Octavia at around 10-11 Lakh in 2002 expected it to sell well when they increased the price to more than 18L by 2013 and further to 22L+ by 2020.
We had the original Octavia bought in '02 and the Corolla bought in '08 and I did look at the Octy as a replacement in '13 but decided that it was not worth the asking price and went with a Fortuner at 24L.

Its the same story with every sedan in the same class, the Corolla, the Elantra and the Jetta. They were no longer made any sense in terms of VFM.
VW/Skoda made half hearted attempts to localize their cars and even now their local content is much lower than the Koreans and Japs.
The only cars that have survived being doubled in price are the Innova and the Fortuner but that is a whole another story.
of course, IMHO and all

[axe_deo]

Originally Posted by chandu

... I did look at the Octavia as a replacement in '13 but decided that it was not worth the asking price and went with a Fortuner at 24L...

The same Fortuner is almost 50L on road now. The Octavia L&K is almost 35L now. Prices of every car have increased.
The Octavia is still worth its price. Its a well built car. It has a decent feature list, premium interiors, powerful engine, modern cabin, premium audio, etc. Although it misses out on ventilated seats and a sunroof, it is still good value for money for what it offers.
Its really sad that it will be discontinued.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by axe_deo

The Octavia is still worth its price.

Exactly. For what it offers (the refinement) and the feel of a well done finished product, its not overpriced in today's world (same with Superb). Indian market is shallow because not many want to venture out of routine (because car is a fair share of annual income).

In the Ford exit thread, ford was blamed for the exit and not refreshing old products by most. For me, I believe when Endeavor was better than Fortuner, why did people not buy at least in equal numbers, is the answer to the shrinking Indian market.

With the current VW-Skoda numbers, they have almost no skin in the game, they may quit after one bad quarter.