[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by theAutomaniac

1. Approximate FE is expected to be around 35-40KMPL so FE for sure won't be a problem! In fact, this might even become a bestseller solely due to those figures!

Originally Posted by Carma2017

As per specs of Nissan Note e-power in Japan, which is a Series Hybrid vehicle, the FE quoted is 2.9L/100km, which translates to close to a humongous 35kmpl.

As per Nissan Singapore the FE of Note ePower is 4.1 l per 100 km which 25 km per l. I don't know how 35 kmpl is being arrived at.

Link for the specification

And a few points on Maruti trying to create a Series Hybrid -
1. It is easier said than done. Other manufacturers have spent years in mastering the tech. When you do it from the scratch, there are bound to be hiccups.
2. Series Hybrid is like carrying a petrol generator in your car. You can do that in an EV as well.

[Carma2017]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

As per Nissan Singapore the FE of Note ePower is 4.1 l per 100 km which 25 km per l. I don't know how 35 kmpl is being arrived at.

Link for the specification

A very basic cursory check on Nissan Japan website reveals the following in their product catalogue (Dorrt):

Please note (pun intended), that there will be variation from country to country depending on the cycle to be followed for FE calculation. The 2017 Note actually had a higher value quoted but with time the regulations have become stiffer. So, a 2024 Note may have a lower quoted FE value than an older one but it will be way more realistic and efficient.

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by Carma2017

A very basic cursory check on Nissan Japan website reveals the following in their product catalogue .... So, a 2024 Note may have a lower quoted FE value than an older one but it will be way more realistic and efficient.

Sorry for my failure to read Japanese - There are multiple mileage figures on the screenshot, out of which some are nearer to the claimed mileage on the Singapore site. WLTC number is quoted as 28.4 kmpl. Also none of the figures touch or go beyond 35 kmpl.

As the thread is about Maruti making their own series hybrid. It will be hard to believe that they will beat Nissan in the mileage numbers. This is not designing a new NA 1.2 L engine. This is hybrid tech.

[Carma2017]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

....

As the thread is about Maruti making their own series hybrid. It will be hard to believe that they will beat Nissan in the mileage numbers. This is not designing a new NA 1.2 L engine. This is hybrid tech.

That is exactly what I mentioned in my comment. Nissan has developed and perfected E-Power to the extent that they can now deliver Real World mileage of close to 20kmpl for XTrail / Qashqai sized vehicles at very reasonable prices.

Suzuki cannot do so at the get go for sure even though they have been making hybrids in Japan for a while now. And that was exactly my point. My post was more in regards to previous posts that said Series Hybrids cannot be very fuel efficient. I quoted Nissan to prove my point a well designed Series Hybrids can be really efficient as well.

[sunilarkt]

Originally Posted by purohitanuj

plug in hybrid

Plug in hybrid are not really good. Bigger battery with ICE engine also make them cost prohibitive.

[purohitanuj]

Originally Posted by sunilarkt

Plug in hybrid are not really good

Any point or data backing it up or is it just a statement?

[mack.mehul]

I think the longevity & durability of batteries used in hybrids & EV shall only be known after a few years from now as batteries (for running the car) have been in use in india in vehicles generally after 2020-21. But leaving this aside, i believe that hybrids is the way forward when compared to EV's. No plugging in, fast/slow charging or range anxiety, and with high FE like 20-25 kmpl, one can easily get a range of 800-1000 kms in hybrids.

[Joe367]

Originally Posted by purohitanuj

Any point or data backing it up or is it just a statement?

It's evident from the market right. Plug in hybrids have always been big and expensive. Maruti is trying to go the opposite direction here.

[purohitanuj]

Originally Posted by Joe367

It's evident from the market right. Plug in hybrids have always been big and expensive. Maruti is trying to go the opposite direction here.

Anything is expensive unless it's made for mass market.

PHeV simply has a small onboard AC to DC charger additional to a regular Hybrid. The main reason that PHeV are little in number is due to the miniscule battery they are offered with as they don't translate into much KMs on pure EV mode; hence it makes no sense to provide an onboard charger.

As per the original post, " PHeVs are not good". It still remains open question. Even if they are expensive and big, how does that translate into them being bad?

[sunilarkt]

Originally Posted by purohitanuj

Any point or data backing it up or is it just a statement?

It is not just statement. For years now, environmental groups have been opposing plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) due to their lack of environmental benefits. PHEVs are still powered primarily by petrol, and their electric-only range is often limited, resulting in a minimal reduction in greenhouse gas emissions compared to conventional ICE vehicles. Additionally, many consumers avoid charging their PHEVs altogether due to the absence of fast-charging. This lack of consumer adoption, coupled with dwindling sales, is moving car manufacturers away from PHEVs and towards small hybrids or fully electric vehicles (EVs).

There are multiple reports and papers available that provide further evidence and analysis of the environmental and economic drawbacks of PHEVs. For example, a 2021 study by the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) found that PHEVs emit more greenhouse gases than EVs over their lifetime, even when accounting for the electricity used to charge them. Another study by the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) found that PHEVs are only as clean as the electricity they're plugged into, and that in areas with a high percentage of coal-fired power plants, PHEVs can actually be worse for the environment than conventional gasoline-powered vehicles.

Here is one such article which talks about it in detail - https://www.latimes.com./environment...for-the-planet

[purohitanuj]

Originally Posted by sunilarkt

It is not just statement. For years now, environmental groups have been opposing plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) due to their lack of environmental benefits. PHEVs are still powered primarily by petrol, and their electric-only range is often limited, resulting in a minimal reduction in greenhouse gas emissions compared to conventional ICE vehicles. Additionally, many consumers avoid charging their PHEVs altogether due to the absence of fast-charging. This lack of consumer adoption, coupled with dwindling sales, is moving car manufacturers away from PHEVs and towards small hybrids or fully electric vehicles (EVs).

There are multiple reports and papers available that provide further evidence and analysis of the environmental and economic drawbacks of PHEVs. For example, a 2021 study by the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) found that PHEVs emit more greenhouse gases than EVs over their lifetime, even when accounting for the electricity used to charge them. Another study by the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) found that PHEVs are only as clean as the electricity they're plugged into, and that in areas with a high percentage of coal-fired power plants, PHEVs can actually be worse for the environment than conventional gasoline-powered vehicles.

Here is one such article which talks about it in detail - https://www.latimes.com./environment...for-the-planet

Thanks for the detailed write up. The article does state what I had written as:

Where a regular hybrid car runs on gasoline, using battery power to improve gas mileage, a plug-in hybrid can go a few dozen miles on battery power alone. A regular hybrid has no plug to recharge a battery: The gasoline engine takes care of that. The plug-in hybrid can be attached to a wall socket or an EV charger for a battery refill, at home or at work, and the gas tank can be refilled at a service station.

That’s enough for fans, who see plug-in hybrids as a way to drive on mostly pure electric power and not have to worry about iffy public chargers on longer routes. They consider them a more flexible alternative to all-electric vehicles, in particular for those who rely on a single car.

It does also state about the PHeV as:

Foes, including Greenpeace, the Sierra Club and other environmental groups, say plug-in hybrids depend too much on fossil fuels and don’t make sense for anybody.

But that above is true for Hybrid as well.

One goes through the whole article, the biasness against PHeV is due to the fact the owners neglect to charge them regularly, reducing the environmental benefit over Hybrids.

The technology is not at blame here.

The only point I see here is that PHeV is more expensive than Hybrid and if people are not taking advantage of that, then it tends to be worse than Hybrids.

I hope I got this right.

[greenhorn]

My prediction
Maruti will launch this as a pure ev. The base version of the car will have 5 km range, the top version will have a big battery with a usable range. There will also be a range extender accesory available in the brochure.
Since the car is an ev, maruti and their customers get to claim full EV discounts.
The top model will be vapourware with no additional features, premium pricing which will make the jimny launch pricing look reasonable,1 year waiting periods and no discounts
The base model will be sold to a couple of corporates who might use the cars as airport/inter office shuttles etc, and the occasional scrapyard bhai who has donor car with a trashed body and salvageable ice power pack (not that rare given maruti build quality)
The majority of the cars available in inventory at dealers will be the ones with the range installer, installed from the factory itself for dealer convenience

Did anyone say "Regulatory Compliance"?

[Joe367]

Originally Posted by purohitanuj

Anything is expensive unless it's made for mass market.
PHeV simply has a small onboard AC to DC charger additional to a regular Hybrid.

It isn't just the onboard charger, PHEV's usually have larger battery pack compared to regular strong hybrid cars. PHEV with small battery doesn't make any sense. It is quite difficult to package everything into a car the size of Fronx and again it would drive up the cost of the vehicle.

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

My prediction
Maruti will launch this as a pure ev. The base version of the car will have 5 km range, the top version will have a big battery with a usable range.

Is Fronx/Baleno platform EV compatible though? Tata has been delaying Altroz EV seeing low volumes for Altroz ICE as well as the fact that the floor will be too raised to accommodate the battery pack or else lower the GC too much for our roads.

With hybrid, the battery can go in the boot but with EV that much size isn’t enough for any meaningful range.

Tiago has split Battery under rear bench and below boot, the boot area housing the extra 5kWh in the LR over the MR. Around similar space would be available on baleno/fronx.

There will also be a range extender accesory available in the brochure.
Since the car is an ev, maruti and their customers get to claim full EV discounts.
The top model will be vapourware with no additional features, premium pricing which will make the jimny launch pricing look reasonable,1 year waiting periods and no discounts

The issue with this is that GST may be paid on ex factory price (which doesn’t include REX price) but won’t a separate GST need to be paid on buying the REX accessory? Similar to what has to be paid on a small genset like Honda ones.

Further, if at time of sale, the genset is not installed, it can be sold as EV and may get waived from Registration and Road tax (in states where applicable) but once you add genset, won’t the car need to be re-registered as Hybrid/Petrol vehicle again?

After all it is a huge modification—I don’t know if Indian CMVR allows engine swap but it is equivalent of that.

They made special provision in CMVR to allow registration of ICE vehicles after EV conversion, I’m not sure that there is a provision for the opposite ie EV to ICE conversion or not.

At best, if provision is present, then buyer will have to pay registration fee and road tax as applicable again (nullifying the benefits) and at worst, if it is not in the provisions, then the buyer is stuck with a car having 5km range and no REX.

Did anyone say "Regulatory Compliance"?

Don’t give them ideas, one hybrid scandal was enough for govt to completely sideline the technology.

[digitalnirvana]

Originally Posted by Shresth_EV

Is Fronx/Baleno platform EV compatible though?

The post you replied to is satire/sarcasm