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Old 8th December 2020, 10:57   #6931
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Originally Posted by andafunda View Post
I am not talking about road tax. I am talking about income tax. Please read the rest of my post.
Well, you were blaming the luxury car owners. The amount the owners pay as taxes while purchasing a luxury car is many times larger than the income tax they suppose to pay. Buying a Luxury car is a public service. Also why should poor people suffer for Governments inability to collect income tax ?

Last edited by anb : 8th December 2020 at 10:59.
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Old 8th December 2020, 10:59   #6932
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Well, you were blaming the luxury car owners. The amount the owners pay as taxes while purchasing a luxury car is many times larger than the income tax they suppose pay. Buying a Luxury car is a public service. Also why should poor people should suffer for Governments inability to collect income tax ?
Sir, with all due respect, you are missing the point I am making. Are you telling me that the tax one pays on a car is more than the income tax a person is supposed to pay? Please do the math.
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Old 8th December 2020, 11:04   #6933
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Well, the money for the new Parliament building, compensation, TA/DA & retirement benefits for the soon to be expanded MP seats, those two B777s, cost of various blunders.......all these has to come from somewhere!!

The stark irony is that if we were to cut down the current number of MPs by 50%, this wouldn't really affect the life of ordinary citizens like us. In fact, the standard of life might just improve as our tax money won't be wasted.

Find inner peace and calm by dreaming about that shiny new EV I guess. And also walk to the booth for the local elections happening today?? That way one wouldn't feel the pinch of these high fuel prices and can improve the health & fitness too.
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Old 8th December 2020, 11:38   #6934
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I thought this thread was for fuel prices. But, high taxes on fuel and high fuel retail prices even when international crude prices are low is fully justified in varied ways. Oh.. its a push for electric cars.. oh, it has to be raised because fair share of income tax is not paid, etc etc etc..!

Taxes on fuel prices are raised because government revenue collected through various means has fallen. Various means = direct + indirect taxes. Indirect tax collection has fallen, or at best has remained flat MoM or YoY because economic growth has been falling mostly (even before Covid struck). But this should be ignored.

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Originally Posted by andafunda View Post
If even 20% of luxury car owners in India paid their fair share of taxes, we wouldn't have the problem of the government trying to recover revenue through indirect taxes.
I do not own a luxury car. But, who so ever has bought a luxury car.. Last I checked, it is not a crime to be earning high incomes (as long as it is through legal means). But, how would one define 'fair share'? They already would be taxed at a minimum rate of 33%. [approximated, 30% tax rate bracket + cess on top of it] That is no way a small tax rate. Especially when some basics like decent roads, clean water, uninterrupted power supply, do not exist in most places in India. On top of the high tax rate, taxes at every level. Dividends from investments - Tax. Buy a luxury car - as already said in above quote - astronomical tax rate of 50%. Basically.. you have high income.. tax tax tax..! That is the solution.

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Originally Posted by andafunda View Post
Forget businessmen, there is no way we only have 2,200 doctors, lawyers and CAs making over 1 crore per year in India (as per last year's tax filings). Heck, I can show you atleast 5,000 doctors in Mumbai that make more than 1 crore per year. If you don't believe me, befriend any real estate developer and ask how much of his informal debt comes from doctors at 2% p.m. interest.
Hasn't successive governments failed at identifying and taxing such individuals, including current government? Demonetization - one of the benefits of it was supposed to be destruction of black money [= money not declared as income] and identification of HNI's so that they could be taxed. So, demonetization failed.. right?

Also, if you have such concrete information that you can show at least 5,000 doctors who make more than 1 crore per year, I'd strongly suggest you to report such incomes and help government authorities. You may find further details here https://www.incometaxindia.gov.in/pa...back-home.aspx and https://www.incometaxindia.gov.in/Do...eme-1-5-18.pdf


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Originally Posted by andafunda View Post
We are a lower-middle income country with relatively low treasury reserves / natural resources / gold etc. We can't print money out of thin air - we tried that between 2004 and 2010. Guess what we got? Massive currency depreciation, which made everything more expensive.
Fuel got very expensive because of high international crude oil prices. Even after they were subsidized during the 2004-2010 period.

Also, could you please point me towards an information source which shows there was printing of money in excess of what was needed during that period?

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Originally Posted by andafunda View Post
Then we have the bureaucratic machinery and massive corruption, particularly at state / local level. For your reference, we are already at 120% of fiscal deficit target only in 6 months of the financial year owing to COVID revenue losses, stimulus and refusal of state governments to raise debt on their books.
If governments have refused to raise debt on their books, is that not a good thing. Also, if I understand it correctly, state governments refused to raise debt as central government suggested it as a solution to compensate fall in GST revenue. State governments position (especially the opposition party state governments) was correct in my opinion, since the central government (the current one) assured compensation of short fall to get through GST constitutional amendment. It seems going back on commitments made is the trademark of the current government.. for example, critizing high fuel prices in the 2010-2014 period and now raising taxes on fuel indiscriminately.

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Originally Posted by andafunda View Post
Therefore, the government is forced to tax stuff that they can recover easily -- and unfortunately the salaried class has to bear the brunt of double taxation, while our family doctors / lawyers / chacha with a factory in Bhiwandi happily skirt paying income tax and even electricity charges in some cases.
This purely demonstrates all governments, irrespective of the tall promises they make are incompetent.

No, the government can choose to not tax stuff. It can choose to trust and hire economic experts, take criticism and make changes on the way. Enable growth, such that direct and indirect tax collection increase due to increased economic activity. And salaried class does not have to bear the brunt.

Salaried class too can aspire pay less fuel tax. Salaried class too can aspire high incomes, and thus buy luxury cars after paying reasonable taxes (50% indirect tax on cars is not fair share in any world, I would think).

More importantly, salaried class can change their opinions too. Especially come to believe that it does not matter which government comes to power, they will be taken for a ride. And thus, choose to vote any which way.

In the mean time, let me fuel up petrol and pay fair share taxes of 65% because government has failed in its economic policies.

Also, I have only attempted to rebut the points you have made. I do apologize if you find the tone of the message harsh. I no way intend to do that. I only wanted to make my points. Cheers.
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Old 8th December 2020, 12:00   #6935
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Originally Posted by andafunda View Post
If even 20% of luxury car owners in India paid their fair share of taxes, we wouldn't have the problem of the government trying to recover revenue through indirect taxes.

Forget businessmen, there is no way we only have 2,200 doctors, lawyers and CAs making over 1 crore per year in India (as per last year's tax filings). Heck, I can show you atleast 5,000 doctors in Mumbai that make more than 1 crore per year. If you don't believe me, befriend any real estate developer and ask how much of his informal debt comes from doctors at 2% p.m. interest.

We are a lower-middle income country with relatively low treasury reserves / natural resources / gold etc. We can't print money out of thin air - we tried that between 2004 and 2010. Guess what we got? Massive currency depreciation, which made everything more expensive.

Then we have the bureaucratic machinery and massive corruption, particularly at state / local level. For your reference, we are already at 120% of fiscal deficit target only in 6 months of the financial year owing to COVID revenue losses, stimulus and refusal of state governments to raise debt on their books.

Therefore, the government is forced to tax stuff that they can recover easily -- and unfortunately the salaried class has to bear the brunt of double taxation, while our family doctors / lawyers / chacha with a factory in Bhiwandi happily skirt paying income tax and even electricity charges in some cases.
So country was not developing at 10% plus GDP when these same doctors and rich folks supposedly were not paying their share of income tax?

Are you saying that before Covid there was parity between pump price and international crude price?

I have paid for diesel at 65 when crude was 130 plus dollars and I am paying for diesel now when crude is 49.03 dollars

In Covid like government has lost revenue, so have people who have lost their jobs, businesses, loved one's, property (Yeah, moratorium for 6 months then what, magically money appears?), why this additional burden of fuel prices which makes everything else expensive too?

If money is such an issue, why did the supreme court rap them yesterday about stopping them the 20 thousand crore central vista to be built? Why is bullet train not scrapped? Why such extravaganzas are not being stopped when they are finding it difficult to pay the states their rightful GST share too?

About Chacha with a factory in Bhiwandi, my father is one of those Chacha's and since 2016 and there are spiders and macchar's roaming around in that place.That is the case with most of Bhiwandi because that entire industry is destroyed and people have sold their looms with their weight in metal.

Please don't justify the unjustifiable

Last edited by humyum : 8th December 2020 at 12:03.
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Old 8th December 2020, 12:03   #6936
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Originally Posted by OrangeCar View Post

I do not own a luxury car. But, who so ever has bought a luxury car.. Last I checked, it is not a crime to be earning high incomes (as long as it is through legal means). But, how would one define 'fair share'? They already would be taxed at a minimum rate of 33%. [approximated, 30% tax rate bracket + cess on top of it]=
Not a crime to own a luxury car or earn high income. Trust me I pay a 20% surcharge over the regular tax rate. It hurts. What I am refering to is that only 3% of people in India pay income tax. 2,000 doctors and lawyers declared income above INR 1 crore. Count the number of luxury cars in India. It totals more than 2,000. Conclusion - a lot of people don't pay income taxes. It affects honest tax payers like me who have to pay a surcharge over normal tax disproportionately.

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Originally Posted by OrangeCar View Post

Also, if you have such concrete information that you can show at least 5,000 doctors who make more than 1 crore per year, I'd strongly suggest you to report such incomes and help government authorities.
Not my job, thank you.


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Originally Posted by OrangeCar View Post
Also, could you please point me towards an information source which shows there was printing of money in excess of what was needed during that period?
Check inflation numbers for those years plus flow of money into the system. RBI site is your friend.


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Originally Posted by OrangeCar View Post
If governments have refused to raise debt on their books, is that not a good thing. Also, if I understand it correctly, state governments refused to raise debt as central government suggested it as a solution to compensate fall in GST revenue.
Umm, okay. Let the central government drop sovereign guarantee on all those state DISCOM loans and see the gravy flow stop.


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Originally Posted by OrangeCar View Post
Salaried class too can aspire pay less fuel tax. Salaried class too can aspire high incomes, and thus buy luxury cars after paying reasonable taxes (50% indirect tax on cars is not fair share in any world, I would think).
Agree with you. This was the whole point of my original post.

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
So country was not developing at 10% plus GDP when these same doctors and rich folks supposedly were not paying their share of income tax?
Yes, and look at the inflation rates during that time. The value destruction can be seen in the following chart if you bother to build it - China and India GDP (in absolute terms) in home currency and in USD over 2000-2020. You will realize the mistake in your statement.

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
I have paid for diesel at 65 when crude was 130 plus dollars and I am paying for diesel now when crude is 49.03 dollars
The damage to our fiscal position and related currency depreciation was massive. Anyways not a topic of discussion for this forum.

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Why is bullet train not scrapped?
Offtopic, but check the source of funding for this project. Getting a free loan from Japan. Only a fool would scrap it.

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
About Chacha with a factory in Bhiwandi, my father is one of those Chacha's and since 2016 and there are spiders and macchar's roaming around in that place.
As long as people pay rightful taxes we should be good as a country.

Last edited by Eddy : 8th December 2020 at 12:31. Reason: Merged
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Old 8th December 2020, 12:21   #6937
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Originally Posted by andafunda View Post
Therefore, the government is forced to tax stuff that they can recover easily -- and unfortunately the salaried class has to bear the brunt of double taxation, while our family doctors / lawyers / chacha with a factory in Bhiwandi happily skirt paying income tax and even electricity charges in some cases.
The salaried class too would go the same way if they had a choice. So let's not paint them as saints either. Everyone wants to save their taxes right from the Doctor to the corner sweet shop who you may not appreciate but earns a lot of money without having to declare that income. And this is going to just start parallel discussions where one may argue that the government has failed to show any accountability when it comes to spending our taxes. Freebies, failed schemes, corruption, abysmally poor quality roads, hospitals, and whatnot. The list goes on.
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Old 8th December 2020, 12:22   #6938
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https://finance.yahoo.com/news/india...081047731.html

India's November diesel sales plunge after rising in October

Quote:
NEW DELHI (Reuters) - India's diesel sales fell 7% in November from a year earlier, after rising in the previous month, according to preliminary data on state refiners' fuel sales, signalling industrial activity is still slow to pick up after a national lockdown was eased.

Diesel sales in India, the world's third biggest oil importer and consumer, had risen in October for the first time in eight months due to pent-up demand ahead of the festival season.

Diesel consumption, a key parameter linked to economic growth and which accounts for about 40% of overall refined fuel sales in India, totalled about 6.21 million tonnes in November.

On a month on month basis, sales of diesel by state refiners rose 8% in November from October, reflecting some improvement in activity but the year-on-year decline suggests activity is still well below levels of a year ago.

The three state refiners - Indian Oil Corp, - Hindustan Petroleum Corp and Bharat Petroleum Corp - together operate 90% of the retail fuel stations in the country.

The contraction of the Indian economy eased off in the three months to September amid signs of a pick-up in manufacturing, and economists expect a steady recovery next year if progress on coronavirus vaccines spurs consumer demand.

Sales of gasoline rose 4.9% in November from a year earlier to 2.4 million tonnes, or growth of about 8% from October, the data showed.

Sales of liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) during the month rose 4.5% from a year earlier to 2.36 million tonnes, while jet fuel sales declined by 48% to 346,000 tonnes as air travel was still largely restricted.
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Old 8th December 2020, 14:48   #6939
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Originally Posted by andafunda View Post
Not a crime to own a luxury car or earn high income. Trust me I pay a 20% surcharge over the regular tax rate. It hurts. What I am refering to is that only 3% of people in India pay income tax. 2,000 doctors and lawyers declared income above INR 1 crore. Count the number of luxury cars in India. It totals more than 2,000. Conclusion - a lot of people don't pay income taxes. It affects honest tax payers like me who have to pay a surcharge over normal tax disproportionately.
Oh man, this 3% myth again, why why why?

Let me quote my own post from another thread

Please look beyond mere numbers, there is an entire socio-economic data behind this. 97 % are tax evaders and 3% run the country is not really the case and far from the truth, let me parse some mota-moti data.

Less than 3 percent file income tax return in India

Only 3.5 crore people, or 2.89 percent of the country's total population of more than 121 crore, file income tax return in India

Out of the 121 crore people might be someone's 1 year old son and a 95 year old grandma who might be earning no income. Neither need to file taxes. In fact, there are only 47 crore people who are actually working, which means only 47 crore have any sort of income.

Of these almost half are employed in agriculture. That is pretty much exempt from income tax. Our nation, like many others, have an idealistic attitude towards agriculture - a hangover from the agricultural past. We somehow assume that farmers are doing a more important job than rest of us, which I believe they are and they should not be taxed. Food is a survival item and people who make it need to be provided the best of everything, but anyway that is just my point of view.

In any case, that leaves only about 23 crore workers who work in factories and the service sector, IT industries etc etc.

To pay income tax you need to be earning Rs. 5 lakhs or more per year now. Because, we don't want to tax the poor. Now, how many of the workers do you see around you make Rs. 41000+ or more per month? How about your maid? Not likely. How about the assistant sitting in the shop? Not likely.

Out of these about 15 % I assume must be making more than 5 lakhs per year, that leaves you with a realistic number of the people who are going to file taxes this year.

Sure there is tax evasion and lots of businesses and businessmen evade tax but its no where near what is being peddled around. Even people who earn less than 5 lakhs pay indirect taxes in whatever they spend, every rupee that goes out of their pocket, some amount it is tax. Wheels of an economy run when people have money to spend, not when they are taxed to death.

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Originally Posted by andafunda View Post

Offtopic, but check the source of funding for this project. Getting a free loan from Japan. Only a fool would scrap it.
its not free, not even close to it, read for more.

That free propaganda is just a myth. When you tell a lie a 100 times in full volume with the entire media at your helm, its bound to sound true.

http://mybs.in/2UYpe1u

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Originally Posted by andafunda View Post
As long as people pay rightful taxes we should be good as a country.
Nope, country will be good when rightful taxes are rightfully used for the people of the country, not to fund a megalomaniacs dream of grandeur



About the fuel prices, since this thread is about that.

--> https://www.pgurus.com/lower-fuel-pr...omic-benefits/

and a little food for thought

The price ex-refinery of petrol is Rs. 30/litre. All kinds of taxes and Petrol pump commission add up the remainder Rs.60.

60 rupees as TAX!!!!
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Old 8th December 2020, 15:15   #6940
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I think just like black money we will start to see "black-fuel" shortly! With the micro refineries being so cheap, i am not sure why no one is smuggling or importing crude legally into the country! It now makes perfect sense to buy crude and refine it one self than to buy petrol! Heard Californians, Canadians and the Iraqis have micro setups like these.

Sad to say, the leadership of country has no vision when it come to economy(or for that matter anything!). It is like flogging a horse and letting it run in the direction it wants. Or if I am to put it - Simply depressing accelerator when the drivers hands are tied behind the seat. Just rethinking whether I want to be a passenger on that car!!!
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Old 8th December 2020, 15:32   #6941
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Oh man, this 3% myth again, why why why?

Sir, I can appreciate that you may not know my background, but please stop with the funnel analysis that you just did. It does not make sense when you look at it on an overall basis. In developed economies, 30-50% of households pay some sort of income tax. In India, this is lower than 10%. Even ex-agriculture this is less than 20%. During my days as a rookie investment banker we had done an analysis which showed that 50%+ of businesses under-report earnings. This has not changed much. Not sustainable at all.

This creates a double jeopardy scenario for the people who pay income taxes - high income tax and high indirect taxes. Hence my tirade against the rest of the medical and lawyer community (part from the 2,000 good souls) who under-report their incomes.

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its not free, not even close to it, read for more.
Again very offtopic, but with all due respect to Mr. Venu and you, a soft loan over 50 years is just that, free money. I know a little bit about investing and finance (do it for a living) - yes currency depreciation impacts your payout and therefore effective interest rate, but assuming a straight 3% depreciation every year for 50 years is just plain stupid. Plus, you have to take into account the concept of Economic Value Added - a concept alien to Mr. Venu and his kind - which enables the economy to generate activity due to the creation of a public asset. With the same logic, why should we have created any highways or public infrastructure at all? Why do you "invest" in infrastructure, while "spend" on welfare. The concept of EVA comes in. My late professor Sudipto Bhattacharya would have explained this to you better over beer at High Holborn, London.

Anways, this is my last reply on the topic. I was merely trying to present a financier's point of view on the prevelance of indirect taxes in our country. I don't have any political affiliations, although would recommend people to stop reading the finance equivalent of Gruhshoba and commenting on fiscal issues.

Last edited by andafunda : 8th December 2020 at 15:44.
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Old 8th December 2020, 20:06   #6942
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Hence my tirade against the rest of the medical and lawyer community (part from the 2,000 good souls) who under-report their incomes.
I'm not sure where you get this 1 Crore income that every doctor and lawyer earns. I do remember someone ranting about it on the radio though.

Most doctors I know struggle to make ends meet. seeing 10-15 patients per day charging 200-300 per patient, paying staff, paying rent, water and electricity bills at commercial rates. Most barely scrape through to the 10% bracket. Many doctors I personally know fudge their income tax returns by quoting non-existent income to be eligible to avail loans to buy instruments. Sure there are certain hotshot doctors who earn a lot, but they are more businessmen than doctors.

I don't know much about lawyers, but the few I know are running around courts in the hot sun trying to rustle up cases.
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Old 8th December 2020, 20:45   #6943
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Sorry, Time crossed to edit the previous thread. Cross posting from the credit card thread.

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I have never realized this excess charging by the card companies.
My observation from this minimal data is that Shell charged Rs. 100/- extra of which Rs. 31 was reversed. IOC charged Rs. 30 extra of which Rs. 25 was reversed. SC seems to charge a uniform Rs. 10/-
But what I am appalled by is the brazen way in which the billed amount and the amount is the statement are manipulated. If I get an SMS saying X amount has been spent, Why would I assume that X+a would be charged to me?
Is this practice even legal and can something be done to stop this?
So The actual price I'm paying per liter of petrol is more than what is displayed. I didn't know about this discrepancy till just a few minutes back. Just wanted to highlight in a thread about fuel prices about how even credit card usage promoted by the government is trying to make fuel costlier. Not sure if it's the same with other digital modes of payment.
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Old 8th December 2020, 22:37   #6944
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Quote:
So The actual price I'm paying per liter of petrol is more than what is displayed. I didn't know about this discrepancy till just a few minutes back. Just wanted to highlight in a thread about fuel prices about how even credit card usage promoted by the government is trying to make fuel costlier. Not sure if it's the same with other digital modes of payment.
There is always a fuel surcharge and 18% GST on the surcharge whenever you are using your credit card to buy fuel. There are cards that offer you a reversal for the surcharge but not on the GST. There are cards that offer you full reversal (surcharge and GST) and there are cards that offer no reversal at all. This charge can be avoided if you use apps like Paytm, phonepe etc or debit cards.
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Old 10th December 2020, 15:22   #6945
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BJP Rajya Sabha MP, also a trained economist, Dr. Subramanyam Swamy tweeted the below image.

Well.. at least somebody has a sense of humor and a spine. Rare qualities these days!

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