[Delta Wing]

@CPH:

For the fact that nobody ever was hurt physically by a Nano I think you make it sound so dramatic!
...All I can do is help preventig other incidents happening to prevent repeating such incidents.

You beat me to the dramatics (fear mongers about Nano being the first) so I took the lesson from them and you...
Your help is appreciated (for goodness' sake, do not misinterpret this).

What you fail to understand is that ranting is not getting anyone anywhere. How much ranting was done when the Union Carbide desaster happened? A hell of a lot. What was the result? Nothing.

If ranting were not useful, there would never have been a single recall in history. But then, you saying this after nice doses of rants on Toyota and Mercedes (...I would never buy one...) is a little too hard to digest. And Union Carbide...actually not enough ranting took place, but I'll not debate this issue.

Whatever you are coming up with you just prove my point, which you don't want to see.

If you think so, you're welcome. I'm not out to prove anything. Just telling people to chill till some concrete facts about the burnt Nano emerge. Like everyone else, I too see what I want to see.

Not a single person of over one billion people in India do know the exact cause of the fire. But everyone blames Tata from the word 'go'.

Then deductive logic implies that I do not exist since I am one of the people in India and I don't blame Tata yet but I do exist so your statement is tagged false.

What has consumer protection to do with Tata? Tata is not the government. If Tata has bodged your pressure leads to shooting yourself in the foot without consumer protection. Sort the consumer protection and any company bodging can be held at ransom.

Everything. Public pressure and bad publicity is a very crude yet effective way of consumer protection which all businesses need to be careful of.

I have seen enough investigations that were wound up in the way you describe and later it turned out that the conclusions were wrong, which led to more people dying.

I do not recall describing any way of investigations. Timely investigations do not mean a slipshod job. Do NOT twist others' words, man. Discrediting others does not credit you.

It took 2 years to figure out why the Air France Concorde had its fatal take off. Experts came to many conclusions. They had video evidence, they had a flight recorder, they had maintainance records, the planes wer regularly inspected, they had all the experience with wear and tear and the flaws of the construction. In many other aircraft incidents it is the same story.

The Concorde is not the Nano.

Again you are wrong. I am not telling people to not jump up and down. I am against false accusations! Jumping up and down on false accusations is wrong, immoral and self defeating.

I bow to your being right...about what? What false accusation did I make here, telling people to chill and implying they were heated up? If so, guilty as charged LOL.

Junp up and down when it is the right time. And then it should be done in an effective way. Or do you think that your jumping up and down is effective? You mentioned Bhopal and claim nothing has happened to the guilty ones. Why hasn't anythinjg changed since? Because your jumping up and down is predictable. Every authority and institution has got a plan 'in the drawer' to get out of this predictable situation.

Not being the expert you are, our jumping is bound to be a little random and feebler as well. Guess every time you jump, a Toyota or a Mercedes goes out of business.

Sort the government to sort the laws and regulations. Jumping at the Nano won't change the manufacturers ways if they need changing.

If only.

You claim to care, but at the same time run Tata down on things you don't even know exactly what they are doing. This sounds to me like a headless chicken. Where is the agenda? You are trying to fight a battle and don't even know were it is!

Trying to put words in my mouth again. The agenda is to CHILL a while and not spill attitude all over the thread calling people headless chickens.

Ratan Tata can today close its factories and live very comfortable till th end of his life and never needs to bend a finger again for work and this would be the same several generations down. His future is a lot safer in this respect than any of ours. If you run down Tata you are bound to lose because it affects your economy. This is what we have to face.

Thanks for reminding me of my economy, had forgotten it totally, I do respect Tata (for Steel/Indica/go/Nano). Again, putting words in my mouth would not serve anything.

Unfortunately the ranters did not present facts, which certainly does not aid the project Nano.

Well, neither did you.

Concerns are constructive, ranting is not.

Your concern concern, our concern rants. Your rants concern, our...oh rats. You've worn me down now.

[airbender]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

I have no great for love for Toyota now that their recent antics in the US have come to light. I have no great respect for Tata either, having worked inside some of their companies for over ten years and seen their interest in built in quality, or even business ethics. Indeed, I think that all large corporations only work in their self interest. If they can get away with murder, they all will. If they are ethical it is only because of business compulsions.
That said, here are some thoughts and theories with reference to the recall subject in developed markets. Recalls have a cost, and if such a practice is to be followed, then ultimately this will find its way in the price of each car on some statistically calculated basis. This does not happen in India, and is one of the reasons why cars are sold so cheap here. They may not appear as cheap as they really are, because the price today contains a high amount of taxes in it at various levels. If one were to strip out the tax content of a car sold in the US from one sold in India, the price difference would be a lot more than what it is on paper today. This is also why the cars here do not have a lot of features that the ones overseas have. As the Indian standard of living goes up, things will change, and we will also have to start facing the silly things like class action lawsuits for things like personal injuries caused by defective products and services like loose carpets. But we will also have to pay for these in the price of the products, because no company will plan to make a loss. Product liability issues have driven many companies out of such businesses like elevators, and even aircraft manufacture because the liabilities can be huge enough to bankrupt companies.
We can't want a one lakh car as well as a recall policy for it - the arithmetic just won't add up.

Your argument about cost and recall is quite logical. But it only holds good if the costs are as you say. Let's compare.

Camry Rs 21,49,220 $19,395
Civic Rs 1,207,000 $15,455
CRV Rs 2,192,000 $21,545
Accord Rs 1,831,000 $21,055
5series Rs 43,20,000 $45,800 (525 in US, 528 in India)
E Class Rs 4,100,000 $48,050

I only compared some models. Our government imposes 100% tax on imported models. Even considering that some models do not have all the goodies they have in US models , the costs are almost 100% in some cases more than 100%(1 US Dollar = 45.5 RS). So where are they cutting costs. Marketing costs in India are quite less than in US. There may me very few models which are priced less though.

It's not just the recalls that are different in these markets. Almost all auto makers offer a 5 years/60000 miles(not KM) in US. That's bumper to bumper warranties.Some offer 10 years/100000 miles or lifelong power train warranty in US. ALl of them also give you a car rental for free if you have to drop of your car at the dealer for repairs. Some of them also offer free road side assistance for some time after purchase. Do you get all these in India inspite of paying the complete price. Also, the price I quoted is the Maximum price in US. Even the worst bargainer would get atleast a $1000 off.

[Sawyer]

The cars you have used in the comparison are CBU imports. I suggest you do the comparison using cars made here. A B segment car that is sold for say, Rs 4 lakhs. If you see what the maker gets after stripping out the taxes, and compare a similar car sold in the US after stripping out taxes charged there, it will show how much cheaper the car needs to be sold for in India to find a market.

[airbender]

Originally Posted by greatmana2000

@CPH .. TATA released the NANO without even setting up a factory because of the JLR ( jaguar land rover) .

Originally Posted by greatmana2000

Tata setup factory at Pantnagar. May be an invisible factory for you. Release of Nano faced problems not bcoz of JRL but BCOZ of Mamata B.

Now , to part finance the acqusition , the NANO was rushed and Indians were fooled into making them believe that the car was the cheapest .

No other car sold in recent times has had any application forms or bookings ..LOL .. what were the TATAS thinking ? The applications are a mere proof for tata to show the demand for the car and there by raise capital for funding the operations .

So to sum it up , i am sure the NANO release was one of haste rather than a proper product release . ( this is my view )

No car factory in recent times experienced what Tata had to go through in Singur. No car in recent times was booked for 2 lakh + units even without a test drive. No car launch in India gained so much popularity and also envy over the world as Nano. Buy the way having application forms and booking amount is indeed a credit for that product. You are one perfect example of poeple posting without knowing the facts.

@CPH .. people in India are so much frustrated with TATA that no one will see reason beyond a certain amount of patience .

People in India are so frustrated with TATA that they are no 2/3 in a market where all the major auto makers are competitors.

Are you supporting TATA just because they are more european than Indian ?

One more silly statement.

[airbender]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

The cars you have used in the comparison are CBU imports. I suggest you do the comparison using cars made here. A B segment car that is sold for say, Rs 4 lakhs. If you see what the maker gets after stripping out the taxes, and compare a similar car sold in the US after stripping out taxes charged there, it will show how much cheaper the car needs to be sold for in India to find a market.

As of now only Maruti and Hyundai have major presence in A, B segments. Others only sell CBU imports(mostly) which are charged 100% tax and those are once having a recall too in other markets(I mean US, I am not familiar with Europe). I guess I am doing an apples to apples comparision here. Comparing a car manufactured at different locations and with different components is not a apples to apples comparision. Can you explain why a car manufactured with similar components, at a same location and sold at same price(before taxes) at all locations gets recalled in only some locations?

Vinaydas can you answer this question as you are the one who started this topic on this thread.

[airbender]

Originally Posted by Delta Wing

@CPH:

Originally Posted by Delta Wing

If ranting were not useful, there would never have been a single recall in history. But then, you saying this after nice doses of rants on Toyota and Mercedes (...I would never buy one...) is a little too hard to digest. And Union Carbide...actually not enough ranting took place, but I'll not debate this issue.

It's not ranting but activism that made recalls happen(that's how recalls started). It's not ranting but activism that makes culprits of Union Cabide to face justice.

What we do on this thread is not activism but ranting.

Think of Union Carbide or any other scam in india. We confine our self to posting(in our words ranting). How many of us on this thread would go to the ground start being an activist?

By Sawyer:
We can't want a one lakh car as well as a recall policy for it - the arithmetic just won't add up.

It takes some common sense to understand this arithmetic.

One Question to all the t-bhp members: How can we self proclaim us to be well informed experts on automobiles? I agree there may be some members who really know about auto's(what percent 1,2 or 10 to the max) but what about others?

[Ponmayilal]

Originally Posted by airbender

..... Don't Indian drivers deserve a agency caring about their safety?....

Atleast one BHPian seems to have raised the query.

Originally Posted by Ponmayilal

....What about our country? Is there not even a single authoritative agency to look into such serious incidents that affect the passenger safety? Did the Automotive Research Association of India (ARAI), Pune send its team to the spot?.....

Since many people talked aout Hondas, Lambhorginis (sorry I don't even know how to pronounce) and what not catching fire, the same BHPian raised another query.

Originally Posted by Ponmayilal

Can anyone cite a 100% similar burnout of any car straight out of the showroom and within hours? I am just curious. My perception is that therein lies the gravity of the event and the consequent uproar, disbelief and disenchantment.

No answers.

[airbender]

Originally Posted by Ponmayilal

Atleast one BHPian seems to have raised the query.



Since many people talked aout Hondas, Lambhorginis (sorry I don't even know how to pronounce) and what not catching fire, the same BHPian raised another query.



No answers.

A incident not reported by Media or not seen on T-bhp does not mean it did not happen. Even if we take Media and T-bhp as reference we have hundreds of car fire incidents. One Honda City caught fire just days after coming out of showroom. People were charred to death here. Yet no one shows any interest in government's no role in ensuring safety. That itself proves that we are only interested in ranting. Remember the pesticides in pepsi and coke incident, almost a decade after that we have no rules for softdrink contents. Even after a decade they cannot be punished by law(Union Carbide happened in 1984, almost 3 decades). Ours is a country where terrror attacks happen as if like festivals(India stands no 1 for Terror deaths. Do not worry about the ranking, rest are very very behind), yet we only limit ourself to blogs. Countries much smaller and poorer than us have better guidelines for soft drinks and have tighter laws to combat terror(Bangladesh for ex). I can quote million examples like this and I will say it will keep on happening. Yet we only rant. We say India will be a super power yet these things keep on happening.

Comon guys, lets take up something. Unlike people in some countries we have zillion choices. In a country with maximum road fatalities in the world(if you consider the percentage of car buyer to road side deaths, the rate is alarming), why don't we(40000+ T-BHP communitiy) start something instead of just rant. Irrespective of which ever region or religion we come from we all have to live in this country.

[wildon]

Is it because of Nano, this thread is so active !!!

The below thread needs some attention guys....

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...tration-2.html

[greatmana2000]

Originally Posted by airbender

No car factory in recent times experienced what Tata had to go through in Singur. No car in recent times was booked for 2 lakh + units even without a test drive. No car launch in India gained so much popularity and also envy over the world as Nano. Buy the way having application forms and booking amount is indeed a credit for that product. You are one perfect example of poeple posting without knowing the facts.

lol, not only car companies , but a lot of other industries face similar problems in different countries . Many people are concerned with environmental , pollution , deforestation problems to warrant a strike against any form of industrialisation .
more than 2 lakh bookings happened because of the media hype generated , rather than the product . believe me some have booked the car or bought applications from super markets without even knowing what it is all about .
It is kind of IPL match scenario where most of the indian get involved because of promotions , but is actually not relevant . infact some of the ipl teams do not have local players , but players from all nationalities are there in a team , an yet we see people cheering the teams . so the I can best say that the nano is a marketing sucess .

@CPH .. people in India are so much frustrated with TATA that no one will see reason beyond a certain amount of patience .

People in India are so frustrated with TATA that they are no 2/3 in a market where all the major auto makers are competitors.

What ever that meant , i didnt understand ..hmmz

Are you supporting TATA just because they are more european than Indian ?

One more silly statement.

Well , I just wanted to point out that Tata is not a fully indian owned company and does not need any nationalist sentiments whatsoever .

[greatmana2000]

Originally Posted by amitk26

So whatever exists in Pantnagar is a cowshed ? And are you sure you mean JLR and not Mamta Banarjee ?

Do you really know how time is needed to set up a factory and get it operational ?
After singur , do you within how many months the car was launched ?

[airbender]

Originally Posted by wildon

Is it because of Nano, this thread is so active !!!

The below thread needs some attention guys....

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...tration-2.html

Thanks a lot for the link. I would say this is the first useful post on this thread.

Having a law is the first step and enforcing it should be the second step.

In some cases where we have a law, concentrate on the second step(enforcement).

If we don't have a law, work to make the first step a reality.

We have a thread where people died bcoz of car fire but no one was guilty. If both steps are completed not only it will save some lifes but also a lot of money. Only if people are ready to act(as long as lwe won't we will remain a laughing stock for rest of the world).


By Greatmama2000:
Well , I just wanted to point out that Tata is not a fully indian owned company and does not need any nationalist sentiments whatsoever .

Another silly statement. Go check out wikipedia(or Google) on who holds how much stake in Tata group or Tata motor's. Nothing to do with nationalist sentiments but only about facts and fiction.

By Greatmama2000:
Do you really know how time is needed to set up a factory and get it operational ?
After singur , do you within how many months the car was launched ?

I will only post if I know what I am writing is a fact not a fiction.

[CPH]

Originally Posted by airbender

Having a law is the first step and enforcing it should be the second step.

In some cases where we have a law, concentrate on the second step(enforcement).

If we don't have a law, work to make the first step a reality.

I was thinking of raising the subject to force a law being set up. But then I was thinking that I am not even a citizen of your country and have no right to force a law that doesn't affect me.

But what I can offer is to help shape a law that covers the aspects of human rights and covers all aspekts to protect the harmed ones.

[wildon]

^^ Thats a welcome step, Looking forward to it.

Irrelevant of who is the manufacturer the End user must be protected by law. A group like this can make a difference , by signing a mass petition and submit to the respective Govt.agency to implement the Anti Lemon Law /Quality monitoring law.

A national drive to complete the signing of mass petition will get attention, T-Bhp members from each state/district can co-ordinate to complete the signing of mass petition, from there on the media will take care.

Its better to act now.

Can some body who has knowledge of drafting a Mass petition regarding the subject come forward please.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by greatmana2000

Do you really know how time is needed to set up a factory and get it operational ?
After singur , do you within how many months the car was launched ?

That is a silly statement , Initial nanos are being rolled out from pantnagar plant of TML.

Do you mean every company need to set up a dedicated factory to launch every model of Car ? Do you even know that factory lines are shared not just for models of cars and CVs but products from different companies.

China is manufacturing house of the world because outsourcing manufacturers share factories for entirely different products

I fully understand time required to set up factory but any one who has studied even one mandatory semester course on production Engineering required for all branches of engineering in colleges would know what is meant by assembly line.