[bkbkr1212]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

Maruti has sold more cars than Suzuki Japan - False

Maruti has sold more cars than Suzuki Worldwide - True

In fact, Suzuki survives the global meltdown on its own because of Maruti.

further, restrictions on Technology transfer are gone for good. Wonder what holds Suzuki from bringing 1500cc 125bhp petrol motor that runs the Swift Sports in Europe & SX4 in Japan to India. Plus there are few good diesel engines as well.

I believe that Suzuki has always milked the Indians. Even the Swift was a majboori to avoid Hyundai & Tata cars (good or bad) taking over market share from Suzuki.

If Maruti is miliking, what are Honda guys upto? Looting poor, snobbish Indians. They park their bum on a Honda car and start thinking that they are driving a Ferrari. Aplogies to Ferrari. Comparing Honda with Ferrari can invite a sue
Honda,another Jap manufacturer, one has to take a look at the cars they launch abroad, whether it be Civic, City(I think in another name),Accord etc.
The base variant of each of them in Western world are better than highest variants we got here.
Sample this:-
My friend bought a ANHC last month.Middle variant without alloy wheels and fog lamp.
When he quieried about fitting a fog lamp at a later point of time, sales guy said, "well, bumper need to be replaced"

Replacing bumper for a fog lamp.
I a nutshell the point is quite simple.Now that Maruthi is leading in car cales, we would like to see it down in dumps. If tomorrow Honda or Hyundai or Tata or M&M or for that matter any other manufactures overtakes Maruti (which is going to happen sooner than later), then we all will start bashing them for their quality and will try to bring them down too. For all god-knows-what reasons.

This happens in every sphere of life.
Most of the human race (see, I didn't generalise, so no flaming on that front) loves to bring people down than trying to reach their level. Or just accept the limitations and live (or exist) with it.

The above paragraph doesn't apply to Maruti though. I wouldn't want to see other co's to bring down the quality of their cars(price will naturally come down) to up their volumes trying to overtake Maruti in just numbers.

Oh forgot to mention,I have two cars from this very stable. SX4 and Zen Estilo.

Let's wait for a year or two before we jump up and down on all these Figo's, polo's etc. Selling a new product is quite easy. But mainitaining it is the challenge.
Imagine for a moment (with unbiased mind) what would have happened to Verna,Linea etc if they didn't have diesel variants

It'll just be over priced Honda and very average SX4. (Won't include Manza with these two. It looks like an army man's trunk box fitted on to a Indigo)Tata cars are "either they take you with it after 3 years or you throw it after 3 years"


Durability matters and that can be tested only with the passage of time.


P.S:- I am all set to get flamed. But flame with reasons.
Best Regards,

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by bkbkr1212

They park their bum on a Honda car and start thinking that they are driving a Ferrari.

Nice analogy. Have always wondered what snob value could be there in an 8lakh NHC, when we have cars costing crores.

Originally Posted by bkbkr1212

My friend bought a ANHC last month.Middle variant without alloy wheels and fog lamp.

Someone in my organisation got a Civic (11lakhs odd) and no alloys. But hey that's OK since its Honda.

Originally Posted by bkbkr1212

Imagine for a moment (with unbiased mind) what would have happened to Verna,Linea etc if they didn't have diesel variants

Well, nothing really happened with linea sales even with diesel variant being available. I stand by my belief that till Fiat sets up independent sales/service centres, they are not going to succeed here.

Originally Posted by bkbkr1212

Won't include Manza with these two. It looks like an army man's trunk box fitted on to a Indigo

True. The Logan did not have competition for baddest rear till the Manza came in.

Originally Posted by bkbkr1212

I am all set to get flamed. But flame with reasons.

Ha. Be prepared for even your patriotism to be questioned if you have any adverse comment to make about Tata.

[airbender]

Originally Posted by longhorn

Can you name any other foreign manufacturer in India who has not done the same ? Maruti cars are the cheapest in every segment. If Suzuki is milking Indians, what about other foreign manufacturers? Why blame Suzuki alone?

Suzuki is the only company which continues to ship out decades old models without updating them. They actually follow a different strategy for India. They have upgraded M800 in other markets but released the upgrades as a different product in india.

Maruti is bigger than suzuki now but how much R&D/Product development happens in India?

Coming to honda, they are suffering bcoz of overpricing. Comparing other foriegn makers to suzuki is different. Suzuki's sold all over the world are cheap and that's no different in india. But they only sell in india.

Originally Posted by bkbkr1212

They park their bum on a Honda car and start thinking that they are driving a Ferrari.

Honda's are no ferrari but none can beat them in reliability. I am not trying to defend honda here. here in usa if I were to choose between honda and suzuki, I will go for honda even if suzuki is cheaper by 20%. It's not just me but the whole world expect india is doing that. All this to say honda's come with something more than just a badge.

In india, honda's are the least localized ones so their products are more expensive. ANd so their sales are suffering.

[blackasta]

Originally Posted by bkbkr1212

I a nutshell the point is quite simple.Now that Maruthi is leading in car cales, we would like to see it down in dumps.

That is not the case why people criticize maruti - not because they are the top car seller. They criticize because though MSIL have the top spot by a comfortable margin - MSIL shuns from R&D, launches facelift variants as new products, does not have the courage to set industry standards and provides el cheapo quality.

If tomorrow Honda or Hyundai or Tata or M&M or for that matter any other manufactures overtakes Maruti (which is going to happen sooner than later), then we all will start bashing them for their quality and will try to bring them down too. For all god-knows-what reasons.

This happens in every sphere of life.
Most of the human race (see, I didn't generalise, so no flaming on that front) loves to bring people down than trying to reach their level. Or just accept the limitations and live (or exist) with it.

Only way for other manufacturers (exception to some extent - older TATA vehicles, few batches of FIAT vehicles which have bad/cheap interiors) to reach the level of MSIL is to go downwards!

flame on!
My opinions in line and based on long term experience in 3 MSIL vehicles - BS1 M800, BS2 M800 and 2007 Wagon R.

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by airbender

Suzuki is the only company which continues to ship out decades old models without updating them.

What about Hyundai, who sells old Santros and Accents in India?
What about Tata, who sells old Indicas and Indigos along with Vista and Manza?
What about FIAT, who sells old Palios in India?

Originally Posted by airbender

...how much R&D/Product development happens in India?
...
In india, honda's are the least localized ones so their products are more expensive. ANd so their sales are suffering.

This is clearly a double stand. Apart from production, you expect Suzuki to do the very important phase - R&D here in India, but justifying expensive Hondas by the reason of non-localization of production!

[gshanky]

It would be interesting to understand why Suzuki would "milk" indian customers with the risk of "the milking" to end/decrease in the short term. However this is a classic example of "What you reap is what you sow" albeit very slow in this case

To be honest, other than a few enthusiasts, the majority need(is happy with) sedate driving with some reliability and that is what suzuki has been giving out. But we still haven't seen their plans for the new competition from TATA, FORD, Hyundai, etc.

There is a reason for suzuki to be where they are with respect to their market position in Japan and elsewhere. They were lucky and opportunistic to agree to the deal with indian govt back in 80s.

IMO, they could sustain the market share if they do (atleast some of) the following
1) Replace alto with its worldwide replacement - A*
2) Re-design the Dzire
3) Bring all variants of SX4 with the european trim, engines, etc.
4) Bring Kizashi and position it inbetween Honda City and Toyota Altis
5) In the future, release all the Global/European models from India

More thoughts?

[airbender]

[quote=romeomidhun;2001346]What about Hyundai, who sells old Santros and Accents in India?
What about Tata, who sells old Indicas and Indigos along with Vista and Manza?
What about FIAT, who sells old Palios in India?

Except for Santro, nothing else you mentioned sells in big numbers. Older indicas are phased out from 13 big cities.

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

This is clearly a double stand. Apart from production, you expect Suzuki to do the very important phase - R&D here in India, but justifying expensive Hondas by the reason of non-localization of production!

No. I am not justifying what honda is doing. They should localize more. No doubt about that. I was only giving you the reason for honda's high pricing. As long as they don't they won't be volume maker. I am waiting for their hatchback and entry-level sedan launches next year to see if they make amends.

Originally Posted by gshanky

To be honest, other than a few enthusiasts, the majority need(is happy with) sedate driving with some reliability and that is what suzuki has been giving out. But we still haven't seen their plans for the new competition from TATA, FORD, Hyundai, etc.

+1 to that. Suzuki provided what the majority wanted at a cheaper price upto now. Credit to them. They had two advantages 1) Cheap price 2) Brand. But it's hard for them to maintain that price level from now(margins are under pressure that's one reason they are launching alto with new k series engine). Tata and mahindra and to some extent hyundai counter them on price and others on brand. So it's hard for them to maintain market share.

If they have to keep the margins they have to increase R&D, product dovelopment in india. The market in the coming years will force them todo it.

[mohandas]

Originally Posted by bkbkr1212

They park their bum on a Honda car and start thinking that they are driving a Ferrari.

How true!! But there is another group who rub theirs on Maruthi's and think that those are in same class of acura or lexus.

[vinaydas]

all said and done , i would so love to see a Totally Independent Maruti 10 years from now

[longhorn]

Originally Posted by airbender

Except for Santro, nothing else you mentioned sells in big numbers. Older indicas are phased out from 13 big cities.

So what if they don't sell in big numbers. They are still a decade old. How come no one complains when you pay in excess of 10 lakh for a Safari which is more than a decade old, but you want cars costing 1/3rd of that to be phased out. That's what I call double standards.

Originally Posted by airbender

If they have to keep the margins they have to increase R&D, product dovelopment in india. The market in the coming years will force them todo it.

Trust me, they are on the job. Like I mentioned, it cannot be done overnight. They are doing it from scratch. The product is already under development and should be launched in 2012.

[bkbkr1212]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Nice analogy. Have always wondered what snob value could be there in an 8lakh NHC, when we have cars costing crores.

Alright, you may be able to afford a car costing crores. I am talking about the average Indian salaried middle class. In that segment, you will see the category of people I mentioned.Typical case of one eyed king among the blinds.

Someone in my organisation got a Civic (11lakhs odd) and no alloys. But hey that's OK since its Honda.

Ah, there you go. Honda, anything is OK. Sad thought process.
BTW, what R&D does Honda,Hyundai, Fiat etc do in Indian shores.We don't design anything, just implement the designs (Nano being an exception)

Well, nothing really happened with linea sales even with diesel variant being available. I stand by my belief that till Fiat sets up independent sales/service centres, they are not going to succeed here.

True. The Logan did not have competition for baddest rear till the Manza came in.

Logan did have. Dzire was giving tight competition for almost all cars including Logan . It was selling like hotcakes till i20 came in. Now people have a choice and less waiting time.

Ha. Be prepared for even your patriotism to be questioned if you have any adverse comment to make about Tata.

I thought most Tata cars were fitted with Fiat engines. So what is there to be proud about? (with possible exception of Nano)

Originally Posted by mohandas

How true!! But there is another group who rub theirs on Maruthi's and think that those are in same class of acura or lexus.

Mmm, I disagree on that, my friend

Maruti owners, I mean it, never ever think that they are sitting in the best of cars. All know that by buying a Maruti vehicle a lot of compromise is made on the quality.
Almost the same reason as why Big Bazaar is a hit in India(Low quality stuff, but highly affordable)
99.99% owners buy Maruti because
(1) Cheap. Not much money to splurge on cars
(2) A.S.S. Very important
(3) FE.

Think about it, do you know of any Indian who wouldn't want to own a fancy "phoren" car? Though Suzuki word is in the tail of Maruti, everyone "considers" them as Indian cars. The general thought is "(S)He does'nt have enough moolah to own a car.Hence went for a Maruti".
When I went for my car, ANHC was costing 2 lacs more (OTR in B'lore) than an SX4.
I didn't want to take 2 lacs extra loan.(I wouldn't have been able to pay EMI even if I gad taken).

[Latheesh]

Originally Posted by vinaydas

all said and done , i would so love to see a Totally Independent Maruti 10 years from now

You will never see a totally independent Maruti

Originally Posted by longhorn

So what if they don't sell in big numbers. They are still a decade old. How come no one complains when you pay in excess of 10 lakh for a Safari which is more than a decade old, but you want cars costing 1/3rd of that to be phased out. That's what I call double standards.

But havn't they upgraded their product including engine in Safari.

Originally Posted by bkbkr1212

I thought most Tata cars were fitted with Fiat engines. So what is there to be proud about? (with possible exception of Nano)

Few variants of their cars are fitted with FIAT engine. Same as M Suzuki.

[bblost]

Originally Posted by bkbkr1212

Maruti owners, I mean it, never ever think that they are sitting in the best of cars. All know that by buying a Maruti vehicle a lot of compromise is made on the quality.
Almost the same reason as why Big Bazaar is a hit in India(Low quality stuff, but highly affordable)
99.99% owners buy Maruti because
(1) Cheap. Not much money to splurge on cars
(2) A.S.S. Very important
(3) FE.

Think about it, do you know of any Indian who wouldn't want to own a fancy "phoren" car? Though Suzuki word is in the tail of Maruti, everyone "considers" them as Indian cars. The general thought is "(S)He does'nt have enough moolah to own a car.Hence went for a Maruti".
When I went for my car, ANHC was costing 2 lacs more (OTR in B'lore) than an SX4.
I didn't want to take 2 lacs extra loan.(I wouldn't have been able to pay EMI even if I gad taken).

I own a Maruti Wagon R.
I love my car.
Its about 6 years old with a little more than 50k kms.
No expenses beyond the scheduled services.
100% reliability.
0 rattles.
Service that makes me feel very special.

Maybe Maruti owners like me want a car to complement our lives. Not spend out time waiting in service centers dealing with an indifferent staff waiting for parts.

Infact just today when I saw a thread saying Jimny is getting launched. I broke out in a big smile.

[Daewood]

Technically Maruti Suzuki may be a sperate entity paying royalty to Suzuki japan. But they are one and the same. In spirit Maruti is a subsidiary of Suzuki.
In such a scenario does it really matter where they do their R&D?
Isn't skoda using the technology developed by VW.

It's like expecting Nokia to do all their R&D in India because they have a factory here and 6 out of every 10 phones sold in India is a Nokia.

[vigneshA]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

Maruti has sold more cars than Suzuki Japan - False

Maruti has sold more cars than Suzuki Worldwide - True

Beats me why the first one is false, if the second one is true.