[White Aviator]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Thank you!

The problem I see here is people reading selectively.

Agreed! Also people seem to be blind towards others perspective as well.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Like I said, I am a Danny Ric fan, and a Kimi fan, and even a Vettel fan. I do not like Max, but I like the fact that Lewis is finally being shown up.

This is how it started out for me. I too am a Danny Ric fan and I've always liked Lando as well so I'm supporting McLaren overall as a team. Kimi is an absolute legend and you have to love him! It's sad he's retiring this year but maybe for him it was time now. I've always supported Charles, he's a very talented driver and a very good person. I also like Carlos as he's got a lot of talent and is very underrated, also a very good person.
I was a massive Vettel supporter during his Ferrari stint and still support him to do well. George too is massively talented and I'm happy he's going to Mercedes. So yes I'm a fan of almost half the grid and that's because I love the sport.
As you said I wasn't a Max fan before this year but the way he's challenging Lewis was not seen since 2016 when Rosberg was in Mercedes. While doing so Max has also shown immense maturity and class and a huge improvement in his driving. He was truly reckless and over aggressive when he first joined RB but now he's driving more like a world champion. This is what made me his fan this year and I'm supporting him for the championship.



People still debating about the move on Lap 48 should watch the video below.
Both the drivers are a class act and just the fans are fighting in the background.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTHYW7-7fAM

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

3. It's called defending, and whether he braked too late or braked early enough but didn't steer enough, doesn't really matter, does it?

Wouldn't defending/senna quotes/msc parallels at the very least need a qualifier to keep at least your own car on the track?

Damn, even Michael made his "error " less obvious in Monaco.

[TheDarkKnight]

My opinion of the incident is that it should’ve at least been investigated and then decided it as a Racing incident if they feel it was one. If Max had stayed on track pushing Lewis off it would’ve still been acceptable as we’ve seen this done by Lewis himself, but he himself went off the track defending. Here’s a video discussing the same incident.

http://youtu.be/yPKjVrxvgbI

What’s done is now done, so we should all just look forward to the last 3 races as this is turning out to be the most exciting season since 2016.

Cheers,
TheDarkKnight

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by White Aviator

People still debating about the move on Lap 48 should watch the video below.
Both the drivers are a class act and just the fans are fighting in the background.

https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=oTHYW7-7fAM

I think this video should lay to rest some if not all the extreme views that Hamilton fans have had post weekend.

Obviously there has been some amount of preparation that has gone into the responses, and it has been done for the optics. But even Lewis enjoyed the fight, and that’s what’s important. I’m sure he wouldn’t enjoy his rival on track leaving the door for him to walk right through. Where’s the fun in that?

It’s fun when it’s spicy and I’m sure the competitor in Lewis relishes the challenge. That is exactly what Max and RB are providing. But to demand that penalties be levied for racing hard is just ridiculous.

Originally Posted by mayankk

Wouldn't defending/senna quotes/msc parallels at the very least need a qualifier to keep at least your own car on the track?

Damn, even Michael made his "error " less obvious in Monaco.

Fair enough.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

It’s fun when it’s spicy and I’m sure the competitor in Lewis relishes the challenge.

For sure!
Reminiscent of the last race shootouts at suzuka about 20-23 years ago! This was the most edge of the seat race in ages. Yes, I'm a Lewis fanboy, but though the last few years have been satisfying seeing the demolition of everything else on the grid, this season has been the most fun since 2k7-8.

Ps: responding to the moderator now- not getting pms for quoted messages ,like the last one you did.

[thecarguy]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Funny how Lewis' fans are calling for a penalty to be levied on Max when the two did not even touch!

Max was clearly defending his spot. He braked late. Yes, he may have run Lewis wide. Yes, it wasn't the cleanest defence. But he did not hit Lewis the way Lewis hit him in Silverstone. In Silverstone, Lewis clearly missed the apex and punted Max into the wall causing a 51g shunt.

If Max had punted Lewis in Brazil, a penalty would be a no-brainer. Just as it happened in Silverstone, Lewis got the 5-second penalty for punting him out (should have been much harsher in my opinion, considering it was a massive accident that Lewis could have avoided).

But Max stayed clear from Lewis and did not punt him. Therefore, a penalty is rightfully not deserved.

I am no Max fan. If anything I am and always have been a Danny Ric fan. So my opinion on this is neutral, unlike the Lewis fans all round calling for penalties and race bans.


P.S. Great race by Lewis! He was on a different level and the new ICE has clearly been the difference between the two protagonists. The lead for the driver's title is now just 14 points. If they carry on P1 and P2 the way they did in brazil, they will head into Abu Dhabi on par with each other. (Assuming Checo steals the fastest lap on both occasions)

The penalty is not decided on the consequence of an incident, rather on the incident itself. He gained an advantage by going off the track. Verstappen had no intention of making the corner, he went off track in his defence and pushed Hamilton off too. If Hamilton hadn't yielded it would've been a crash.
This was just like in Austria, between Norris and Perez where a penalty was awarded.

Also, the race ban cries were after the Silverstone GP.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by thecarguy

The penalty is not decided on the consequence of an incident, rather on the incident itself.

That's correct.

What I am saying is there was no contact. Contact is not a consequence of an incident but the incident itself. *facepalm* And if you notice most of the penalties are levied if there is contact, or if a driver goes off track at a chicane for example and re-joins the track ahead of the driver he may have been battling with. And even in those cases, a warning is usually given to the driver to secede the position gained.

Originally Posted by thecarguy

He gained an advantage by going off the track. Verstappen had no intention of making the corner,

This is where you are wrong, and these incorrect statements stem from bias. Please try and look at this from the eyes of a 3rd party F1 fan and not through the lens of the average Ham-fanboy. Every single Ham fanboy is saying this, and even Hamilton admitted that it was hard racing.

Yes, he ran him wide. Yes, it was not the cleanest defence. But there was no advantage, much less a lasting one, gained from going off the track. The flipside is Max may have braked too late and gone too deep while trying to defend, wouldn't that be possible as well?

And let's not forget that Lewis has done this countless times to all his rivals. Even as recently as Turkey, Lewis shoved Perez into the pitlane. Thankfully, the usual pitlane entry rules do not apply to Turkey or Perez would have been forced to enter the pitlane! LOL! How are these incidents conveniently ignored?

Originally Posted by thecarguy

This was just like in Austria, between Norris and Perez where a penalty was awarded.

I think Massi himself has stated that every incident is looked into independently and every penalty is awarded based on merits.

The penalty was handed to Perez after his second attempt at running Norris off the track if I am not wrong.

Handing out penalties should not be the norm. As it is the Stewards are very trigger-happy, thereby killing the sport slowly by forcing drivers to tipy-toe around each other. That is not what racing is about. When will Ham fans accept this?

Originally Posted by mayankk

For sure!
Reminiscent of the last race shootouts at suzuka about 20-23 years ago! This was the most edge of the seat race in ages. Yes, I'm a Lewis fanboy, but though the last few years have been satisfying seeing the demolition of everything else on the grid, this season has been the most fun since 2k7-8..

I had actually lost interest in F1 after the regs changed in 2014, giving Mercedes the clear edge in the Turbo-Hybrid era. Unlike 2010 and 2012 where the title was hard fought, with the first 6-7 races yielding different results, keeping over 5 drivers in contention for the title. However, 2014 onwards, Mercedes were 10 steps ahead of the field as they pioneered the innovation behind the split turbine and compressor housing (derived from a World War 2 war-plane) thereby ensuring that they remain firmly ahead of the competition.

From a technical standpoint, this was pure engineering genius and Mercedes is to be lauded for their tech. But this also meant that Mercedes was just too far ahead of the pack and the rest of them were only playing catch-up. This leads me to believe that any of the top drivers - Alonso, Vettel, Kimi or even freaking Pastor Maldonado would have blown the competition away in the dominant Mercedes. In fact, I firmly believe Alonso would have walked away with 10 championship titles if his career was managed well. Lewis' career was managed beautifully with the right intervention of Niki Lauda, and he took the right calls at the right time to land himself the seat at Mercedes. Dominance from a driver based on driving merit is what deserves praise, but that Mercedes PU ensured that any of the top drivers in the Merc seat was going to run away with the title. Lewis fanboys are going to hate these facts, but the truth always hurts.

Originally Posted by mayankk

Ps: responding to the moderator now- not getting pms for quoted messages ,like the last one you did.

Not sure why! Do check if your inbox is full, and clear some messages if required.

[anb]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

In fact, I firmly believe Alonso would have walked away with 10 championship titles if his career was managed well. Lewis' career was managed beautifully with the right intervention of Niki Lauda, and he took the right calls at the right time to land himself the seat at Mercedes.

If Alonso was so much better than Hamilton, how did they end up with the same points in 2007 on Hamilton's rookie season in spite of being in the same team?

[aim120]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

What I am saying is there was no contact. Contact is not a consequence of an incident but the incident itself. *facepalm* And if you notice most of the penalties are levied if there is contact, or if a driver goes off track at a chicane for example and re-joins the track ahead of the driver he may have been battling with. And even in those cases, a warning is usually given to the driver to secede the position gained.

Penalties are imposed even if there is no contact. Just not so much in a first lap corner.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

This is where you are wrong, and these incorrect statements stem from bias. Please try and look at this from the eyes of a 3rd party F1 fan and not through the lens of the average Ham-fanboy. Every single Ham fanboy is saying this, and even Hamilton admitted that it was hard racing.

After Lewis came out of the podium finisher press conference, he then went to the media pen. Lewis then said he hasn't seen the footage yet. So his opinion may change.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Yes, he ran him wide. Yes, it was not the cleanest defence. But there was no advantage, much less a lasting one, gained from going off the track. The flipside is Max may have braked too late and gone too deep while trying to defend, wouldn't that be possible as well?

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Lewis knew exactly what Max was upto. He avoided the collision where as Max is only eager to cause one. Even if Max took out Lewis and got penalty he would have still kept is 21 point lead and that sir is a lasting advantage.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

And let's not forget that Lewis has done this countless times to all his rivals.

Last I checked all top team drivers called Max the most aggressive driver. Max method is simple yield to the bully.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

I think Massi himself has stated that every incident is looked into independently and every penalty is awarded based on merits.

Only reason Massi is now responding is because virtually every media except Dutch, questioned the FIA consistency.
Its one thing to say under investigation and no further action. But saying noted and no investigation necessary without even seeing the footage is bias.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

The penalty was handed to Perez after his second attempt at running Norris off the track if I am not wrong.

Handing out penalties should not be the norm. As it is the Stewards are very trigger-happy, thereby killing the sport slowly by forcing drivers to tipy-toe around each other. That is not what racing is about. When will Ham fans accept this?

Perez was the victim first and he was pushed aside once by norris. Norris got the penalty. Perez then did it twice to other drivers and he got a penalty for each.(2 penalties total).
Penalties should be consistent.

[thecarguy]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

That's correct.

What I am saying is there was no contact. Contact is not a consequence of an incident but the incident itself. *facepalm* And if you notice most of the penalties are levied if there is contact, or if a driver goes off track at a chicane for example and re-joins the track ahead of the driver he may have been battling with. And even in those cases, a warning is usually given to the driver to secede the position gained.



This is where you are wrong, and these incorrect statements stem from bias. Please try and look at this from the eyes of a 3rd party F1 fan and not through the lens of the average Ham-fanboy. Every single Ham fanboy is saying this, and even Hamilton admitted that it was hard racing.

Yes, he ran him wide. Yes, it was not the cleanest defence. But there was no advantage, much less a lasting one, gained from going off the track. The flipside is Max may have braked too late and gone too deep while trying to defend, wouldn't that be possible as well?

And let's not forget that Lewis has done this countless times to all his rivals.



I think Massi himself has stated that every incident is looked into independently and every penalty is awarded based on merits.

The penalty was handed to Perez after his second attempt at running Norris off the track if I am not wrong.

Handing out penalties should not be the norm. As it is the Stewards are very trigger-happy, thereby killing the sport slowly by forcing drivers to tipy-toe around each other. That is not what racing is about. When will Ham fans accept this?

I don't know if you and I watch the same sport as F1 has a clear policy of punishing the incident rather than its consequence.

The incident here is Verstappen running Hamilton off the road. The consequence would have been an accident.

He gained an advantage by keeping his position, which he would've lost if it wasn't for driving the other off the road. If it was any other driver it was 100% a penalty. If you don't leave a car's width on track for a car that's significantly alongside, it's a penalty.


You keep bringing points about fanboyism but there's no doubt in my mind you have a horse(bull) in this race.
Most of the hardcore Max fanboys agreed this should have been a penalty, except you.

Consistent stewarding, hard but clean racing should be promoted. When the safety of drivers is threatened, they will not race. This will set a dangerous precedent for racing where the driver on the inside will always dictate his own and the outer driver's line, without regard to the rulebook. Please look at this incident from the eyes of a real fan of the sport, not one who's just picked it up from the past 2 years or so.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by anb

If Alonso was so much better than Hamilton, how did they end up with the same points in 2007 on Hamilton's rookie season in spite of being in the same team?

Hamilton's rookie season was by far the best rookie season in the history of Formula 1. But there are a lot of factors that need to be considered and there are so many details that go unnoticed, such as:

1. Hamilton secured the prime seat in a top team (McLaren) that was in top form. The car was capable of winning titles from the get-go. Obviously, you need a stand-out driver to do the job for the team, and Lewis delivered because he is an outstanding driver. However, very rarely do young talents secure top seats in top teams fielding championship winning cars. In fact, it had never happened until Lewis secured his seat in 2007. Lewis was incredibly lucky to have secured the seat in his rookie year.

2. Right off the bat, McLaren favoured its new blue-eyed boy over Alonso and this is a fact. Every call the team took was done to favour Lewis. Given the circumstances, I am surprised Alonso even managed to equal Lewis in terms of points.

I would have loved to see how Lewis would have faired in a less than perfect car that wasn't capable of winning championships. Alonso managed to drag that nonsense Ferrari to the top when he was with them. Would Lewis have managed the same? In fact, we don't need to speculate. Let's just look at 2009-2013 when Mclaren were unable to get close to the top and were best of the rest.

Your other post does not warrant a response because I have responded to these statements repeatedly.

Originally Posted by thecarguy

I don't know if you and I watch the same sport as F1 has a clear policy of punishing the incident rather than its consequence.

Oh, I watch the same sport. I just don't watch it with rose-tinted Mercedes and Lewis spectacles.

Originally Posted by thecarguy

The incident here is Verstappen running Hamilton off the road. The consequence would have been an accident.

He gained an advantage by keeping his position, which he would've lost if it wasn't for driving the other off the road. If it was any other driver it was 100% a penalty. If you don't leave a car's width on track for a car that's significantly alongside, it's a penalty.

So what you are saying is a penalty should have been awarded because the consequence could have been a, b, c, d? Way to contradict yourself.

Originally Posted by thecarguy

You keep bringing points about fanboyism but there's no doubt in my mind you have a horse(bull) in this race.
Most of the hardcore Max fanboys agreed this should have been a penalty, except you.

Consistent stewarding, hard but clean racing should be promoted. When the safety of drivers is threatened, they will not race. This will set a dangerous precedent for racing where the driver on the inside will always dictate his own and the outer driver's line, without regard to the rulebook. Please look at this incident from the eyes of a real fan of the sport, not one who's just picked it up from the past 2 years or so.

Here we go again. Maybe you should read my earlier posts before jumping to conclusions. And I guess I may have to repeat myself, again because comprehension fails ham-fanboys!

I do not like Max. I do not like Red Bull. In fact, I hate Red Bull for what they did to Danny Ric, who is actually my favourite driver on the grid. I hate Red Bull for killing careers. Marko is evil and Horner is a crybaby.

As far as the top two are concerned, I am neutral. I am presently enjoying the midfield battle between Ferrari and McLaren. I have always been a McLaren fan and in fact I was a hardcore Lewis supporter in 2007. I used to follow him during his junior formula days. I was heartbroken when he beached his car near the pit entry in the Chinese GP. He would have been the first ever rookie to win the title!

And yes, I am looking at this incident and all incidents as a fan of the sport. I feel Mercedes running away with its tech well ahead of everyone else. Add to it the FIA and Stewards handing out penalties like candies. Calling for penalties against the team that is finally challenging Mercedes is an absolute crying shame. The stewards and race director are in a much better position that all of us, to determine whether a driver deserves a penalty. More often than not they have been correct in their decisions. Somehow, it is only the Ham fanboys who are upset with the decision because it does not suit them. Perhaps you have started following the sport recently and couldn't conceive the idea that Ham could one day be challenged?

You need to ask yourselves the hard questions! Are you sure you are watching the races as a F1 fan or a blind Ham fan who can't accept reason?

Anyway, balanced views on this is not getting me anywhere, because fanboy voices are always louder. Nothing can be done about that, unfortunately.

On to the next one at Qatar.

[SilentEngine]

Wow, this thread is as 'hot' as the race weekend was.

As a neutral fan, this was an enjoyable race to watch. Not a fan of either Max or Lewis, but for the championship i am rooting for Max, despite not liking the way RedBull team operates in general. It's been too predictable to watch Lewis winning all with Mercedes except for 2016. Mercedes/Lewis combination didn't have any other real opposition except for 2017/2018, where briefly Ferrari/Vettel lead the championship before self destructing.

Looks like this season is going down to the last lap. So i hope there's no more DNFs for either Max or Lewis to influence the end result. I will be watching from sidelines and watch Lewis and Max fanboys slug it out as much as Lewis and Max fight it out on track

[vb-saan]

Interesting discussion above – I thought we have majority of the members rooting for Max (or whoever that can end the Mercedes dominance). Hardly see anyone who praise Hamilton, even the wingman (or so-called team player) Bottas get more praises for his Saturday runs

And regarding the point that Hamilton wouldn’t have won all these titles if he was in a lesser car, I feel the same goes for any other past winners. Vettel won his 4 titles during Redbull’s prime and didn’t win anything with the declining Ferrari. And now Max is primed for title in a strong-again Redbull, but he will be a mid-table guy if driving a Williams. It’s about being in the right team at the right time and build that dominance. In my opinion, at least the top 10 guys are super-talented to be in that space, but just that some of them have more drive and hunger than some others (e.g., Lewis, Max, Perez, Daniel etc.). I feel someone like Daniel would have been a common fixture on the podium, even if he is driving a less than ideal Ferrari.

Irrespective of last weekend’s result, I still feel that Max will edge this season.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Hamilton's ---tar.

I know what camp you're in, because I was in the same one with different players.

Anyone should win as long as he's not Schumi.

Anyone should win, as long as he's not vettel.
Bin there, don that.
It's been a dominating run for mercedes, but it's ignorant to assume that they would favor a rookie over a multiple world champion because of any kind of favoritism. It's a billion dollar corp, not a charity, or a Mallya. They want gold, and they have and will back the one who gets it. Their 24 carat is the constructors.

Whenever any team had started with fresh faces, it's taken a couple of events for the team to start favouring one driver, because they understand which one will bring it home. To do that in favour of the rookie, it speaks volumes.

You've got a problem with hamilton winning, and with his fanboys. I had the same with schumi and his, as well as vettel. And it will always be so.

Mercedes were not expecting to be where they are this season. It was quite late that they've focused on this year. The plan was always to throw it all at the next year's car. Next year russell will be there, young and fresh. Lewis still has fight in him, but I doubt he'll be the blue eyed boy as you so eloquently put it. It just might be Russell too. The championship just might turn into a head to head between the two. Who knows.

But mercedes will always want the two championships, and not looking to see if Hamilton should get 3 chocolates against Russell only 2. Or vice versa.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by vb-san

And regarding the point that Hamilton wouldn’t have won all these titles if he was in a lesser car, I feel the same goes for any other past winners. Vettel won his 4 titles during Redbull’s prime and didn’t win anything with the declining Ferrari. And now Max is primed for title in a strong-again Redbull, but he will be a mid-table guy if driving a Williams. It’s about being in the right team at the right time and build that dominance. In my opinion, at least the top 10 guys are super-talented to be in that space, but just that some of them have more drive and hunger than some others (e.g., Lewis, Max, Perez, Daniel etc.). I feel someone like Daniel would have been a common fixture on the podium, even if he is driving a less than ideal Ferrari.

Careful! The pitchforks will be out! Truth isn’t usually accepted in these parts.

You are right about being in the right team at the right time. Lewis was in the right time at the right time because of phenomenal management. Alonso wasn’t so lucky.

Vettel too, was in the right team at the right time. But the crucial difference between Vettel’s tenure at Red Bull and Hamilton’s time with Mercedes, is Vettel couldn’t run away with the title (except 2013 I suppose) the way Mercedes have been doing since 2014. Both the 2010 and 2012 seasons were closely fought. Vettel had to deal with some stiff competition and it wasn’t a cake-walk like it has been for Mercedes and Lewis. Meanwhile, Mercedes have been largely unchallenged since 2014 up until now of course. And it seems to have ruffled quite a few feathers.