F1's Future

crn12 · 22nd May 2009, 15:58

The meeting which is going to happen b/w the FOTA & FIA is at Flavios private super luxury yacht, this meeting is very crucial for all parties involved in F1, I hope they come out with some solution which would keep the Ferrari in F1...Amen

The latest news is Bernie is planning to sue Ferrari!!

myavu · 22nd May 2009, 19:28

Only because of Ferrari/MS Factor and level of quality sports, since 1998 I am watching every single F1 GPs Live on Television and very much updated. For last of couple years the quality of sports had came down drastically. Max had literally destroyed the quality of F1.

I believe F1 is the stage to show technical/technological/strategical ability of participating car manufacture/team. I prefer 4 or 5(if they want to fill the grid, let the teams run 3 to 4 cars) financial strong sustainable team against 13 or 14 simple (teams) cars racing each other. For that better watch A1 GP or other F3000 like GP series.

During last 15 years of so in F1, Ferrari (any manufacture team) has build close to a 1000(even more) employees and dedicated setup for R&D, manufacture and testing facilities, which cost them about ~300 - 400Mn to run. These teams are dedicated to sports (any race) and have strong financial background (own/sponsorship) to deliver. Max proposal of 40Mn may not be enough to pay their employee Salary.

Just keeping my fingers crossed and watching the latest developments. I am totally supporting Ferrari to pull out of F1 if a quality and level playing field is not set. If that happens I will never watch F1 until Ferraris are back!

Hope things will be sorted out fairly

.

Just imagine, till 2004 Ferraris were uncatchable, the only option for Max to do that by introducing GP without a Tyre change knowing Bridgestone was not good in that area, and he succeeded!!!

NB: If Bernie Sues Ferrari, better they pay the penalty and do some other racing.

hiren.mistry · 25th May 2009, 12:44

F1 and Ferrari are inseparable. Both cannot afford to lose each other.

Yes, the FOTA are strong this time and seem to be making some progress. Linky here: autosport.com - F1 News: Teams demand FIA ditch 2010 rules

And this seems to be a very reasonable proposal from the FOTA, a commitment for further 3 years and reduction in costs. What more does Mosley want, if only he could he his head out of his rear and be a little more reasonable.

Rocky_Balboa · 25th May 2009, 14:23

Max has hinted that 2010 wouldnt see the budgeting cap, but 2011 might. Though, he has to wait for Ferrari, Renault and BMW to see if they agree to the compromise.

McLaren Rulez · 9th June 2009, 02:00

The FIA intend to enforce some kind of a budget cap next year. Now, the technical regulations are fairly clear for the next F1 season. So if a team like Mclaren throws in the towel this season and decides to focus on next year's car, is the money they spend considered part of their 2010 budget? If so, how can they check how much they spent since the FIA have no regulatory mechanism in place yet? If not, how is it fair to other teams if one team spends disproportionately now and gains a huge advantage in 2010?

Evolution_VIII · 9th June 2009, 15:44

"Budget Cap" and "Formula 1"

these two words simply do not go thogether. Formula 1 is considered to be pinnacle of motorsport, can it remain the same with teams allowed to spend only 30 or 40 Mn $ every year? Just to explain why a budget cap is simply not a viable option in Formula 1, consider following points:

Red Bull bought over assets of Jaguar after they quit F1 and now this year they have become one of the front runners, is such a turn around possible if teams are aloowed to spend only 40mn each year?
The inconsistant and unclear rules like the use of diffuser this year, after the verdict was out that double decker duffusers are 'legal' other teams now need to develop their own diffusers mid season. Will such a development be possible with the budget cap?
Teams employ some of best automotive engneering talent in the world, budget cap would mean that these teams will simply have to let go some of its talent
For the businessman/team owners like Dr. Vijay Mallya, who are spending millions for their commitment to turn a small teams into winners, it will simply take ages for small teams to improve by spending only limited funds on develpment each year.
Can we see cars like Enzo Ferrari and McLaren F1 on street if the manufacturers had not aquired the technologies from their F1 cars which they derived after spending a fortune?

I agree that during these recession times when sponserers like RBS and ING are pulling out, its not easy for the private teams like Williams to find enough funds. But it sounds funny that because some teams dont have enough funds, others who are willing to spend are also facing restrictions.

If the F1 dictators like Mosley and Eccelstone think that people will watch the 'Circus' of 'Kit Cars' from 2010 just because it is named Formula 1, they are biggest fools. People watch this sport mostly because they are fans of a team or a driver on grid.

When I started following F1 at the age of 12, I did not even know that this sport is called 'Formula 1'. I simply started watching it because all my elder cousin brothers and their friends had gone mad for a driver called 'Michael Schumacher' and I wanted to see his magic on track. I followed every season and every race after that watching the Master writing new pages in racing history and by the time he retired 2 years ago I have become a devoted 'Tifosi' and continue to watch the sport (although its never going to be same without great Schumi)

McLaren Rulez · 9th June 2009, 16:09

Evo, while a budget cap may not be the best way, it is undeniable that F1 needs some kind of cost cutting which will obviously compromise the technical development rate. After a few years, it'll be back to the good old days. If F1 isn't cheaper, many teams may be forced to quit giving us a series with two or three participants (think of that six car Indy race). Even the big teams want cost cutting but not the measures the FIA is proposing.
P.S. Its a $60m cap. $40m is the figure in pounds i believe, but that is academic anyway.

Evolution_VIII · 9th June 2009, 16:48

Yep, I agree with you McLaren that some cost cutting is necessery, and even the teams want it. But for the teams who are spending 400 to 500 Mn a year, asking them to suddenly reduce it to 60 Mn does not sound good. There has to be a phased plan to go about this. Both FOTA and FIA need to find a way which ensures that the big ones get enough time to be able to run with reduced budget and at the same to to ensures that teams like williams who were once the sporting legends, simply do not disappear from sport because of lack of funds. Its a very high time to start working on plans for closer ties and partnerships between private small teams and manufacturers. This way the big manufacturers will have the freedom to spend and the small teams will have resources not only to survive but also to remain competent.

McLaren Rulez · 9th June 2009, 18:41

You know, the worst case scenario that I fear is if FOTA tries a breakaway and it fails due to too few teams and then the regular F1 also fails due to no big names. Its quite possible that this may happen if they don't work it out. Meanwhile, this link is an interesting one (I started a thread on this but i dunno what happened to it)

pitpass - the latest, hottest F1, GP2, GP2 Asia & A1GP news

Make of that what you will

Shan2nu · 9th June 2009, 20:49

Why is the budget cap such a big issue with some teams? Afterall, each team will have the same limit.

shan2nu

McLaren Rulez · 9th June 2009, 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shan2nu

Why is the budget cap such a big issue with some teams? Afterall, each team will have the same limit.

shan2nu

The issue is that top teams (like mclaren

) spend over ten times the proposed cap amount. It is very difficult to downsize a 400m operation into a 40m one and it would involve firing a huge number of workers too. All in all, not good.
Plus there's worries about how the cap will be policed, what to do to teams that break it, etc. but these are secondary at the moment.

akrish01 · 9th June 2009, 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shan2nu

Why is the budget cap such a big issue with some teams? Afterall, each team will have the same limit.

shan2nu

A lot of people would lose their jobs with the big teams. Imagine a company like Ferrari or McLaren who have around 600 people working for the F1 team. What would they do to these 600 people if they can't pay them their salaries because of the budget cap? They would have to sack them wouldn't they? And these sacked people would end up with rival teams, leading to transfer of ideas. Smaller, start-up teams would welcome such people. It's a vicious cycle.

Abbas · 9th June 2009, 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shan2nu

Why is the budget cap such a big issue with some teams? Afterall, each team will have the same limit.

shan2nu

Budget cap is an issue because it kills development. And f1 is all about development. It is a platform where these car makers innovate things and the result is better car and hence they win races. F1 is a very competitive sport and any sponsor associated with a team signifies that they are the best in business.

For example take A1 GP, all the cars are same, the spec are same, they don`t enjoy that kind of viewership and i don`t think they are as competitive as F1 .

So you see its a negative chain reaction. You enforce budget cap - you compromise on development - you loose competitiveness - you loose viewership - you loose sponsors - loosing sponsors means loosing money.

IMO team like ferrari , Mclaren, Brawn GP (backed up by Virgin`s Vitamin M) who can afford to spend money on development & technology which in turn paves way for the future of automobiles should not have these budget cap rule. Teams are earning money and that is the reason they are racing. Look at honda, they couldn`t afford to race and they were bought by Brawn (Thanks to Virgin`s Richard Branson). 2 months before the start of the season button and bari were without a job. Now see how the team is doing. button is driving the season of his life. All i want to say is that there will always be a buyer. If a team can`t afford to stay in the game they should quit. Someone is out there to buy these teams.

McLaren Rulez · 9th June 2009, 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbas

Budget cap is an issue because it kills development. And f1 is all about development.

I'd disagree with you on this. Any cost cutting measure implies that technical development will be sacrificed. All teams are definitely for cost cutting due to the economy. It is the extent and means which are troublesome issues.

Put it this way, most teams would willingly sacrifice the rate of innovation in order to ensure the survival of the sport

Abbas · 9th June 2009, 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

I'd disagree with you on this. Any cost cutting measure implies that technical development will be sacrificed. All teams are definitely for cost cutting due to the economy. It is the extent and means which are troublesome issues.

Put it this way, most teams would willingly sacrifice the rate of innovation in order to ensure the survival of the sport

yeah that`s what i meant, technical development will take a hit, hence lesser competitiveness. I didn`t say development will be stopped altogether.

22nd May 2009, 15:58	#46
crn12 BANNED Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Bangalore Posts: 186 Thanked: 18 Times	The meeting which is going to happen b/w the FOTA & FIA is at Flavios private super luxury yacht, this meeting is very crucial for all parties involved in F1, I hope they come out with some solution which would keep the Ferrari in F1...Amen The latest news is Bernie is planning to sue Ferrari!!
	() Thanks

22nd May 2009, 19:28	#47
myavu Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Delhi - Kochi Posts: 1,621 Thanked: 2,138 Times	Without Ferrari no F1, it's a normal GP! Only because of Ferrari/MS Factor and level of quality sports, since 1998 I am watching every single F1 GPs Live on Television and very much updated. For last of couple years the quality of sports had came down drastically. Max had literally destroyed the quality of F1. I believe F1 is the stage to show technical/technological/strategical ability of participating car manufacture/team. I prefer 4 or 5(if they want to fill the grid, let the teams run 3 to 4 cars) financial strong sustainable team against 13 or 14 simple (teams) cars racing each other. For that better watch A1 GP or other F3000 like GP series. During last 15 years of so in F1, Ferrari (any manufacture team) has build close to a 1000(even more) employees and dedicated setup for R&D, manufacture and testing facilities, which cost them about ~300 - 400Mn to run. These teams are dedicated to sports (any race) and have strong financial background (own/sponsorship) to deliver. Max proposal of 40Mn may not be enough to pay their employee Salary. Just keeping my fingers crossed and watching the latest developments. I am totally supporting Ferrari to pull out of F1 if a quality and level playing field is not set. If that happens I will never watch F1 until Ferraris are back! Hope things will be sorted out fairly. Just imagine, till 2004 Ferraris were uncatchable, the only option for Max to do that by introducing GP without a Tyre change knowing Bridgestone was not good in that area, and he succeeded!!! NB: If Bernie Sues Ferrari, better they pay the penalty and do some other racing. Last edited by myavu : 22nd May 2009 at 19:35. Reason: Formatting
	() Thanks

25th May 2009, 12:44	#48
hiren.mistry Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bombay, London Posts: 1,240 Thanked: 1,000 Times	F1 and Ferrari are inseparable. Both cannot afford to lose each other. Yes, the FOTA are strong this time and seem to be making some progress. Linky here: autosport.com - F1 News: Teams demand FIA ditch 2010 rules And this seems to be a very reasonable proposal from the FOTA, a commitment for further 3 years and reduction in costs. What more does Mosley want, if only he could he his head out of his rear and be a little more reasonable.
	() Thanks

25th May 2009, 14:23	#49
Rocky_Balboa BHPian Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Namma Bengalooru Posts: 693 Thanked: 407 Times View My Garage	Max has hinted that 2010 wouldnt see the budgeting cap, but 2011 might. Though, he has to wait for Ferrari, Renault and BMW to see if they agree to the compromise.
	() Thanks

9th June 2009, 02:00	#50
McLaren Rulez Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Mysore Posts: 3,465 Thanked: 5,536 Times	Budget cap question The FIA intend to enforce some kind of a budget cap next year. Now, the technical regulations are fairly clear for the next F1 season. So if a team like Mclaren throws in the towel this season and decides to focus on next year's car, is the money they spend considered part of their 2010 budget? If so, how can they check how much they spent since the FIA have no regulatory mechanism in place yet? If not, how is it fair to other teams if one team spends disproportionately now and gains a huge advantage in 2010?
	() Thanks

9th June 2009, 15:44	#51
Evolution_VIII BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 37 Thanked: 2 Times	"Budget Cap" and "Formula 1" these two words simply do not go thogether. Formula 1 is considered to be pinnacle of motorsport, can it remain the same with teams allowed to spend only 30 or 40 Mn $ every year? Just to explain why a budget cap is simply not a viable option in Formula 1, consider following points: Red Bull bought over assets of Jaguar after they quit F1 and now this year they have become one of the front runners, is such a turn around possible if teams are aloowed to spend only 40mn each year? The inconsistant and unclear rules like the use of diffuser this year, after the verdict was out that double decker duffusers are 'legal' other teams now need to develop their own diffusers mid season. Will such a development be possible with the budget cap? Teams employ some of best automotive engneering talent in the world, budget cap would mean that these teams will simply have to let go some of its talent For the businessman/team owners like Dr. Vijay Mallya, who are spending millions for their commitment to turn a small teams into winners, it will simply take ages for small teams to improve by spending only limited funds on develpment each year. Can we see cars like Enzo Ferrari and McLaren F1 on street if the manufacturers had not aquired the technologies from their F1 cars which they derived after spending a fortune? I agree that during these recession times when sponserers like RBS and ING are pulling out, its not easy for the private teams like Williams to find enough funds. But it sounds funny that because some teams dont have enough funds, others who are willing to spend are also facing restrictions. If the F1 dictators like Mosley and Eccelstone think that people will watch the 'Circus' of 'Kit Cars' from 2010 just because it is named Formula 1, they are biggest fools. People watch this sport mostly because they are fans of a team or a driver on grid. When I started following F1 at the age of 12, I did not even know that this sport is called 'Formula 1'. I simply started watching it because all my elder cousin brothers and their friends had gone mad for a driver called 'Michael Schumacher' and I wanted to see his magic on track. I followed every season and every race after that watching the Master writing new pages in racing history and by the time he retired 2 years ago I have become a devoted 'Tifosi' and continue to watch the sport (although its never going to be same without great Schumi)
	() Thanks

9th June 2009, 16:09	#52
McLaren Rulez Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Mysore Posts: 3,465 Thanked: 5,536 Times	Evo, while a budget cap may not be the best way, it is undeniable that F1 needs some kind of cost cutting which will obviously compromise the technical development rate. After a few years, it'll be back to the good old days. If F1 isn't cheaper, many teams may be forced to quit giving us a series with two or three participants (think of that six car Indy race). Even the big teams want cost cutting but not the measures the FIA is proposing. P.S. Its a $60m cap. $40m is the figure in pounds i believe, but that is academic anyway.
	() Thanks

9th June 2009, 16:48	#53
Evolution_VIII BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 37 Thanked: 2 Times	Yep, I agree with you McLaren that some cost cutting is necessery, and even the teams want it. But for the teams who are spending 400 to 500 Mn a year, asking them to suddenly reduce it to 60 Mn does not sound good. There has to be a phased plan to go about this. Both FOTA and FIA need to find a way which ensures that the big ones get enough time to be able to run with reduced budget and at the same to to ensures that teams like williams who were once the sporting legends, simply do not disappear from sport because of lack of funds. Its a very high time to start working on plans for closer ties and partnerships between private small teams and manufacturers. This way the big manufacturers will have the freedom to spend and the small teams will have resources not only to survive but also to remain competent.
	() Thanks

9th June 2009, 18:41	#54
McLaren Rulez Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Mysore Posts: 3,465 Thanked: 5,536 Times	You know, the worst case scenario that I fear is if FOTA tries a breakaway and it fails due to too few teams and then the regular F1 also fails due to no big names. Its quite possible that this may happen if they don't work it out. Meanwhile, this link is an interesting one (I started a thread on this but i dunno what happened to it) pitpass - the latest, hottest F1, GP2, GP2 Asia & A1GP news Make of that what you will
	() Thanks

9th June 2009, 20:49	#55
Shan2nu Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hubli - Karnata Posts: 5,533 Thanked: 127 Times View My Garage	Why is the budget cap such a big issue with some teams? Afterall, each team will have the same limit. shan2nu
	() Thanks