[Air Cav]

Originally Posted by Arun_S

I have 5th Gen City with Projector lamps, the car shop i visit is recommending to replace my Low Beam lights with Moco h7 228W, with 28000 Lumens.

As per him it is a direct swap, no cutting or replacing of wires. It is having cooling fans in it.

A pair comes to around 12k.

He saying replace both High Beam and Low beam with the same.

Does you suggest this a better option?

Firstly do not go with Lumens ratings and wattage as are printed on products with obscure or not so well known brands. Lumens printed may be mostly calculated raw lumens and have little bearing in actual performance and standardisation. Some may be really good and some may not be, wether in output or construction or optical design. Go for reputed brands like Osram or Philip or Hella that have solid R&D and QC backing them. Otherwise there is a huge black import market out there that rebrand and repackage these LEDs most of which are of Chinese origin. I dont know what diode and circuit efficiency will be required to arrive at a calculated output of 28000 Lumens from 228 Watts of power draw. These are just bogus claims. Its a hit or a miss. If you want LEDs go for sealed LED housings that are designed for LEDs. The Housing and its design is much more important than the light source. One can hold at lit 100/90 W bulb in the hand. How far will the light go or what will be the diameter of the circle of illumination ? Now the same bulb in the right housing will throw that light clearly upto 500 feet on a dark night.

Frankly I will not go with LED bulbs in a reflector housing. The housing is designed precisely for the optical compatibility with the bulb and the filament design of the specified or identical halogen source. Any deviation will only result in suboptimal beam pattern and throw. This error will be magnified with the bidirectional output of LED bulbs no matter how good they are. Further since reflectors have limited scatter control post reflection the glare will increase drastically that is an unsafe situation esp with respect to oncoming traffic. The same may be more forgiving in a projector source for others though it may not necessarily mean better visibility. Please do look at the design of an LED housing and study the diode placements in them. They are very different and optimised for LED sources. And when comparing with headlights always look at a long beam throw design.

I find most people are wowed by the greatly enhanced brightness of an LED source at near and middle distance. The design of all reflector and standard projector housings are for halogen or sometimes HID sources which are both omnidirectional. the construction of the LED bulb allows only directional light and the plate no matter how thin comes in the way of the reflection from the rear of the housing. In a standard headlamp design this reflection from the rear is the part of the emission that increases the distance the light travels farthest and constitutes the centre of the hotspot. Hence LED sources in halogen reflector housings invariably have weaker hotspot centre that reduces range penetration.
Further the greater light intensity and scattering of light in near and mid distance is actually a disadvantage in my experience. It actually restricts distant vision since the brighter light constricts the pupil of the eye and makes it less sensitive to objects that are farther and lower lit up. It compromises distance vision in the darker areas ahead leading to an illusion of greater light yet lower range of vision. In effect it shifts the vision closer.

Two examples I can site personally are as follows. My Abarth has a decent reflector and range throw on H4 55/60w halogens. 7 years ago I installed Morimoto H4 HIDs (4300K) with 55W Morimoto ballasts. They were extremely bright but I was never happy with the long range performance of high beams esp with incoming traffic. I burnt out a bulb 2 years later and swapped them for plain old 100/90W with relays that I had experience 18 yrs ago in my Ikon 1.6. I was much more confident with the 100/90s than I ever was with the Morimotos. Subsequently I changed the Fogs to 3 inch IPH 612s with H9 bulbs. When turned on together my light intensity became comparable if not better than the HIDs in near and mid distance but without any useless broad ambient scatter and they killed it in the resolution they offered in the far distance. Yes the tint is yellow but the idea that whiter light is more light is an illusion. I prefer the better contrast and shadows of yellow light as contrast is the key to discerned visibility in lower lit farther objects. It helps me pick up distant objests better. Whiter light beyond the mid distance appears more washed out and makes things appear more homogeneous and seems to offer lower contrast.

The second example is that of the Compass. I have the 4x4 Ltd model that has the single shutter projector with a single HB3 bulb. This was inadequate to say the least and has been commented upon by all Compass owners accordingly. I upgraded to OSRAM 50W LEDs and after quite some effort managed to get a near perfect beam pattern and throw. Most of my stuff is DIY and it is both effort and time consuming. But no matter what there was always a slight intensity drop at the centre of the hotspot. this is not evident at 1m, 5m or 10m but becomes evident at 20m range. While the near and mid range illumination blew away the previous HB3s (I had the Philips NB unlimited +150 and I have perfected a technique to rub away the blue band coating that then became distinctly better than a std HB3) the far range vision on a long dark stretch was only marginally better. It gave me twice the intensity but did not enhanced the range much. I firmly believe that better night vision = better range of vision and not greater intensity. There is no point being Centre Stage with the Limelight all around that is enough to make you squint if you cannot see far enough where you need to see. In flying when coming in to land at night with landing lights that are adjustable in elevation there is a saying that "One must ride the beam that is to see over the beam and not through the beam so that the object ahead of and around the beam focus is also visible. But I did not want to give up. So I replaced the fog lamps with another set of IPH 612s to keep it flexible for all ie halogen, LED and HID. I initially installed HIDs (same Morimoto ballast with OSRAM H11 4300K bulbs and it was amazing but I removed it with a sense of guilt as I was being flashed frequently by inbound traffic. I adjusted everything but the intensity was too much in combination even on lows. So I could switch on either of the two at a time safely which defeated the purpose. Next I installed a set of OSRAM 50W LEDs. The flashing was marginally reduced though I had genuine 200W of OSRAM diodes staring into the night. On a dark night upto 100 ft in front of the car was as good as daylight but the range penetration was still somewhat better as the fog projector with LEDs throw as much to the sides as upfront. So in effect the output is not well condensed at far range. Also the high intensity in the foreground and mid ground further made me less sensitive to the darker objects far out.
Having dissatisfied myself a bit I finally decided to try the PHILIPS HIR1 9011 bulbs. I could have done it before but the Bargaining Indian in me had always scoffed at the idea of importing a pair of, well, just Halogen bulbs, for Rs 7K. But when I installed them and went out into the dark night the High Beam blew my socks off. For comparison a H4 bulb at 100W is rated at around 2300 Lumens. So I was getting slightly more than 2300 Lumens as the projector lens accounts for a slight extra loss. one may subtract 50 to 100 for the reflection losses and roughly half of the value for the additional lens. In fact because of the lens the beam was much tighter than that from a 100W bulb in a reflector. This in effect increases the actual Lux value at the beam centre or hotspot throwing focussed light farther down. I could have used a 100W HB3 but I never use a over wattage bulb in a projector housing as projectors are tight and compact spaces that does not allow for dissipation of extra heat easili and the same will surely damage the housing. Reflectors esp the ones in bigger housings are much more forgiving of high wattage bulbs.

The 9011 didnt throw as much peripheral brightness as I had gotten used to and in comparison to HIDs or LEDs appeared dim on the side and up close to the casual eye but I could see better much farther out. It is then I realised that the LEDs in the Fog 612s were actually constricting my pupils and limiting my long range vision with their high intensity upfront. Promptly I got myself a pair of H9 bulbs and installed them in my IPH housing and finally hit the sweet spot. I am now really happy and comfortable with it. I dont get flashed and am not burning mine or anyone else's retinas and can actually see farther more distinctly. My peripheral vision through the side windows in the dark has also been restored. As a cherry on the cake I am in the process of retrofitting a set of Hella Micro DEs with 55W H3 bulbs that have been lying with me from an older car that I no longer own. I have bought a spare lower grill from Jeep Service and will custom install the same myself from inside and thereafter change the grill and hook up the circuit at the workshop. I intend to use a relay to power the same and the pick from the relay will be from the rear fog lamp line. For the Hellas it will ensure the separate switch of rear fogs that is existing in the car. This is because I now intend to use the 612s in my fog housings as Aux Lights and I have now modified them to be on a permanent High Beam only to be used when required on long lonely roads and in the jungles that I frequent. And also because though the IPHs are marketed as Fog Lamps their throw pattern is such that in genuine Fog conditions they will create glare and a wall of light in front. For Fog Lamps to be actually effective in dense fog (And I have driven a lot in dense fog from the Himalayas to Meghalaya, Wellington and even good old Kasara Ghat) they must be of medium intensity, mounted low, pointed down towards the road such that they should ideally not illuminate more than 15 to 20 feet ahead. Else in actual fog the scattering of light from a source that is pointed straight or placed higher will cause a lightout akin to what is called as a whiteout in visual flying. One has to understand that one cannot penetrate proper fog with light intensity. I will backfire. One needs to undercut it to see the near ground at low speeds and not look into the fog. Thats the aim of Fog Lamps.

Anyway, its been a very long post but for me the end point is to be judicous, calculated and observant rather than just going for "More the Merrier" approach. The solution may not lie in overdoing it without understanding the datums and metrics. At the end of the day it is back to the comforting and good old halogen with the existing hardware for me and I am happier for it.

Just for the fact book a 9011 HIR is around 2500 Lumens and H9 is around 2100 Lumens. A good HID from a reputed standard brand is benchmarked at around 3000 Lumens. There is a school of thought that says that there are no true 55W HIDs. Cant comment on that but none the less the difference between those marked 35W and those marked 55W is at best 20 percent provided they are from reputed and standard manufacturers. I have used both types of bulbs and ballasts in another car and sold them with that car. Most HIDs cope decently in a halogen projector setup though the optical light source is not identical. Unlike a straight filament an HID bulb has 2 point sources at either end with a small light arc in between as the total light source that does create small to measurable differences in beam pattern depending on the design of the housing. From my experience of the OSRAM 50W LEDs, they sit somewhere within a 20 percent output range of an HID bulb but render a worse beam intensity and pattern than the HIR1 rendering them of lesser efficacy at long ranges, though for LEDs in a Halogen housing they are close to being spot on optically unlike most other LED bulbs. Their only undoing is at the longer end of the High Beam range.

I will take the beam pattern of a good and powerful halogen bulb in a halogen housing any day over any other type of light source placed in it. If you want HIDs or LEDs then at least retrofit good projectors for the same. People and companies invest and spend a fortune designing and making them. All that glitters may not be gold. Better to find a method to the madness.

[Air Cav]

To further explain what I had stated in the beginning of the previous post, that is that the housing is of equal if not of greater importance when attempting to increase night vision, I will cite another personal experience.

My HD Street Rod has a reflector headlight with 55/60W H4 source. The reflector construction is of very good quality but the optics and output is crappy and in consonance with US lighting regulations. If one reads through most lighting forums one will realise that motorists in US and Canada complain about the poor lighting that their headlights offer and point out the reason as the US regulations. They often aspire and try to upgrade to headlamps that are as per the European regulations. So I concluded that the suboptimal beam pattern and restricted long range throw are more to do with the intended reflector design and the output meeting prescribed regulations rather than quality as otherwise the housing construction, fit, finish and materials are pretty solid and of good quality. The reflector also has a big inbuilt glare cap which IMO is redundant as H4 bulbs have glare caps on them.

I swapped the bulb with a 100/90W and used it for some time but though it never caused any problems and enhanced the visibility considerably, a few warning lights started to show up occasionally at times without any actual implications. But the same made me revert back to 55/60W. Thereafter I was tempted to change to 5.75 inch Hella LED headlamp unit and even considered the Daymaker LED unit. Both cost in excess of Rs 25 K but I did not want a higher than 5000K colour temperature as the same becomes useless in rains and on wet roads and foggy conditions.

Hence I decided to change the stock HD reflector with a Hella 5.75 inch plain reflector headlamp unit that came sans a glare cap. I bought the same for Rs 7K and replaced the reflector myself and plonked in a Philips GT +200, 55/60 H4 bulb. The results were way beyond my expectations and the output appears to be close to using a 100/90 bulb in the stock reflector but with a much better beam pattern and throw.

Apart from the light source it is the optical assembly that makes a world of difference. Hence if the housings are poorly designed not much can be gained by simply installing brighter lamps or incompatible ones. Trying to over compensate for low output in this manner will only result in scattering and wasted light to the inconvenience of others and at best offer only marginal gain in useful light while being under the illusion of immediate brightness. It is as important to understand the nature, limit and quality of the housing as it is to upgrade the light source. A chain will always be as strong as its weakest link.

[Mortis]

Anyone else feel like the current LED streetlights are messing with your night time vision ?

I've got pretty good projector tricolour LEDs that are well adjusted and put down a lot of light in dark areas. However I find that the street lights mess with me in two ways :

1) They are somehow washing out the headlight beam while at the same time they are intense yet not illuminating the road in the best way, especially during the monsoon and somehow "hiding" some of the potholes, depending on the angle at which light hits them.

2) Because they are intense point sources of light, they make your pupils contract to the extent that your pupils do not have enough time to dilate and adjust to the dark areas between the street lights leading to reduced visibility in those areas as well, in spite of having good headlights.

Does anyone else feel this to be the case ?

[jasjotbains]

Hello!
I have a Sonet GTX+ DAT with the white LED setup, coupled with the tiny halogen fog lamps. While the setup is "okish" for my daily drives (50 km semi/state highway runs at night), winter here in Punjab is pretty fogged up in December and January, and my travel time of 7pm makes for less than ideal driving conditions, effectively rendering my headlights almost useless. I have tried putting yellow paper on the headlamps but it was not very effective.

I am planning to give my headlamps a halogen makeover. Any suggestions for converting the stock lamps to halogen will be appreciated. I would prefer plug and play lamps better. Also, I hope to make my fog lamps at the bottom useful. Advise please! Thanks in advance.

[JKBKS]

I am being told that 3 inch AES FX-a 3-color fog light (box pic attached) is one of the best. Need to install to drive through Delhi's fog/rains. Its close competition GTR F313 lists 5000 lumens (low beam 35w & high beam 45w) whereas AES FX says 3000 lumens (low beam 38w & high beam 50w). Wanted to ask if anyone has used these and which is better or should I be looking at something else?

[Behemoth]

Originally Posted by JKBKS

I am being told that 3 inch AES FX-a 3-color fog light (box pic attached) is one of the best. Need to install to drive through Delhi's fog/rains. Its close competition GTR F313 lists 5000 lumens (low beam 35w & high beam 45w) whereas AES FX says 3000 lumens (low beam 38w & high beam 50w). Wanted to ask if anyone has used these and which is better or should I be looking at something else?

The lumen output of three colour versions is typically lesser than the single colour 6000k ones.
Aes has a much better beam distribution and hot spot area than GTR and is among the best products available. What I suggest though is that you can consider the Fx2 and the fx3 versions instead as they are more current versions,, though I think they are only available in single colour. You can also consider the UPS waymaker series (which is the high end products from Aes) and then take a final decision. You can find product details on multiple websites like caroxygen or carconceptsshop.

https://caroxygen.com/products/aes-f...ory-supply-55w

The FX2 actually has a 5500k low beam and a 3000k high beam which gives you very good visibility.

[JKBKS]

Originally Posted by Behemoth

The lumen output of three colour versions is typically lesser than the single colour 6000k ones.
Aes has a much better beam distribution and hot spot area than GTR and is among the best products available. What I suggest though is that you can consider the Fx2 and the fx3 versions instead as they are more current versions,, though I think they are only available in single colour. You can also consider the UPS waymaker series (which is the high end products from Aes) and then take a final decision. You can find product details on multiple websites like caroxygen or carconceptsshop.

https://caroxygen.com/products/aes-f...ory-supply-55w

The FX2 actually has a 5500k low beam and a 3000k high beam which gives you very good visibility.

Thanks Behemoth! I was just looking at AES website for more details. But the specs listed on the product site is different from that mentioned on the box on the same site! So dont know what to make of that

I understand 3000k is useful in fog/rains. So would FX2 be suitable in a high beam? I am good with a 2-color fog light as well as the main objective is to find a solution to fog/rains driving. I also read you mentioned AES Q8 Pro a few months back. Also GTRF313 can be had for around 5000 now.

So what should I go with: AES FX2, AES Q8 Pro or GTR My preference is for the better light than saving a couple of thousand as that's the whole point of going for the fog lights.

[saket77]

I completed a highway trip last week in my City ZX 2024 model - squarish LED fog lamps. I have repositioned my headlamps and that made good difference. However, on my return leg, we started at 04:15 AM and encountered some fog on the highway reducing visibility to almost zero. Thankfully such stretches were short. The while lights of headlamp and fog lamps were absolutely worthless. So much that I had to turn the headlamps off. Only fogs (though white) were slightly better- but only slightly. So, after dropping the idea of upgrading the fogs, I may need to look at tri-colour fogs again. I remain indecisive because the fog lamp trims of 2024 Honda City do not easily fit on after market options.

[Behemoth]

Originally Posted by JKBKS

Thanks Behemoth! I was just looking at AES website for more details. But the specs listed on the product site is different from that mentioned on the box on the same site! So dont know what to make of that

I understand 3000k is useful in fog/rains. So would FX2 be suitable in a high beam? I am good with a 2-color fog light as well as the main objective is to find a solution to fog/rains driving. I also read you mentioned AES Q8 Pro a few months back. Also GTRF313 can be had for around 5000 now.

So what should I go with: AES FX2, AES Q8 Pro or GTR My preference is for the better light than saving a couple of thousand as that's the whole point of going for the fog lights.

If you want the best tri Colour fog light which can get you the best visibility in foggy conditions, then you can get the UPS waymaker f55 tricolour.

https://carhatke.com/aes-ups-way-mak...ector-tricolor

Else if you need the foglights for highway visibility, you can get the aes fx2

The GTRs are inferior compared to the Aes and are cheaper too, but will not give the same light output and distribution as the Aes.

[JKBKS]

Originally Posted by Behemoth

If you want the best tri Colour fog light which can get you the best visibility in foggy conditions, then you can get the UPS waymaker f55 tricolour.

https://carhatke.com/aes-ups-way-mak...ector-tricolor

Else if you need the foglights for highway visibility, you can get the aes fx2

The GTRs are inferior compared to the Aes and are cheaper too, but will not give the same light output and distribution as the Aes.

Thanks again Behemoth!! I see UPS being rated 55w/65w. whereas most other AES fog lights are 43w/67-70w. This low beam bump to 55w (from 43w) could be one of the reasons why UPS is better than AES fog lights.

With that said, I got Mahindra fog lights (19w halogens) installed in my XUV300 from Karol Bagh when I bought it. Also Amit from Blaze offered a Morimoto digital relay when I spoke to him for AES Fog lights.

So if I go for UPS fog lights should I get new wiring too (Morimoto/any other relay) or existing wiring should be ok?

[purav_prv]

Noob question but can anyone guide regarding headlight bulb for Tata Tigor

I have a 2020 Tigor XZA+ AMT
The stock halogen are okaish to drive but would like to install LED's

I see there are different versions (H4, H7 etc)
From reading posts here, I belive Osram are the best.

Which would be the best setup for my Tigor (bulb model)
What W and Lumens should we go for?
Are LED's actually road legal? Or till what Wattage is it legal?

Does the Tigor need two different set of bulbs? (High Beam and Low Beam)
Or will one bulb do the trick?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

[JKBKS]

Originally Posted by Behemoth

If you want the best tri Colour fog light which can get you the best visibility in foggy conditions, then you can get the UPS waymaker f55 tricolour.

https://carhatke.com/aes-ups-way-mak...ector-tricolor

An importer tells me that UPS Way Maker F55 and AES FX/FX2 have the same output. And AES & UPS are brands to cater to different channels. He has UPS F55 at the same rate as carhatke.com as well.

[JKBKS]

I got the the AES UPS Way Maker F55 3-colur fog lights (as advised by Behemoth) installed today from Shiva Car Accessories in Karol Bagh after watching their relevant YT videos. Although the fog lights were working fine with light's stalk but I got them to install a separate switch for fog lamps next to the steering on the right on my XUV300 dashboard. Below are some pics taken in our community's well lit basement parking. A blue cut-off line is visible on the pillars in front. First picture is of Projector head lamps on low beam. Second picture is of Fog Lamps at 6000K. Third at 4500K and last at 3000k.

[KAMALJHA]

Hi All,

Looking at upgrading lighting for my First Gen S Cross Zeta. Will consider either swapping Halogen for Osram’s 4300k 50w LEDs (limited availability) or upgrading to 100/90 Halogen with a Relay at a later point.

First thinking of replacing the fog light with either AES FX3 (9-10k) or IPH Car M617 Single Colour (5-6k).

I am leaning towards M617 as I have predominantly city use and may not need laser etc.

Any guidance / words of wisdom please?

Thanks

[eragon92]

Hi Everyone
I own a Seltos GTX+ 2024 model and not at all satisfied with its headlight and foglamps both. Recently, I have come across multiple videos on Instagram showcasing car accessories installers replacing LED reflectors with 1.5" LED projectors for a total of 6 projectors. However, I have seen that this requires breaking the seal of headlight. So, I am pretty sure that this will void the warranty plus this modification seems to cost anywhere between 40-50k at the bare minimum.

Another option I have heard of is to install additional 2/3 inch fog lights with Seltos specific brackets which ensure Ice cube fog lights remain as is. However, I am confused about which type of fog light to go for as I can find multiple brands and multiple variations. So, I would request fellow members to help me in reaching the best possible solution for my car.

P.S. I would prefer a solution which has no impact on warranty.

Regards
Eragon