[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

I keep wishing that makers would just make bigger bikes as light as the Impulse or lighter. I kick myself at times thinking I should've atleast bought two impulses when I had the chance now that I see nice bikes being a minimum 150 kgs.

I think what everyone seems to want is a KTM 690 adventure, or a Honda CRF 450L, or a Husky 501 LR...

Lets face it, if i want a dirt bike to smoke the trails where i stay, then its the Impulse or the xpulse. Plain, simple, cheap, easy.

But if i want a travel bike neither the impulse or the xpulse will cut it. If the bike is too light, then the frame strength is probably sacrificed. So how does one carry some semblance of luggage for a 3 month trip to the Himalayas?

Or lets suppose, as most indians think, i want to carry my girl friend along at the back, a light trail weapon like the xpulse or the CRF 250 is not going to make that happen. Hell even the 390 adventure will feel tremendously cramped.

There are different bikes for different folks. If you want that trail weapon to replace your impulse, get the xpulse and shave the weight off and throw on that rally suspension. If you want a road biased travel bike, get the 390 adventure or if the budget is less, the Himalayan or the Vstrom.

Now if we have the xpulse 400 and the Himalayan 450 at 180 kgs, 40hp, and great torque at 2500 rpm, good seat space for me and the luggage, good carrying capacity so the frame doesn't crack with the weight and broken roads, 21 inch front wheel, longer travel suspension, 10k service interval... I think that will have a lot of interest.

That would be a nice travel enduro bike.

[tarmacnaut]

Originally Posted by SoumenD

Well I guess its an established fact now that the SX250 is the least-adventurish out of the available advs under 3L and more of a adv-styled highway tourer. I would consider myself as one of the potential buyers and thats mostly because Himalayan is heavy for me and KTM is too tall again(already tried and gave up, am 5'7"). So SX250 is more of a compromise. Xpluse again is superb but for the engine, a little more poke and that would be the choice.

Imagine what a Xpulse 300 can do. It will literally take on everything from SX250 till KTM 390 adv and shake up the whole segment. Hope Hero gets it ASAP.

In no way, it is the least adventurish. The media reviews tried to establish it as such, but their only point against VStrom SX was low suspension travel.

But Suspension travel is not everything. VStrom SX has a true tall ADV riding posture unlike Yezdi & Himalayan, very high GC, lightest weight in segment, (xpulse is not adv, it is a trail bike an adv MUST have touring capacity), comes with dual sport tyres and luggage carrier factory fitted.

There are already few YouTube videos where VStrom trumps both Himalayan/Scram. In the video below where these bikes compete in rubber plantation, the weight advantage clearly shows (Himalayan/Scram are too heavy for slopy off road trails). In many cases GC and weight are more important than suspension travel.

https://youtu.be/RUFNIxsWxUc

The Yezdi adv and ktm adv 250 stall heavily in low rev range unlike VStrom, making off road trails like the above harder.

So don't go by just the media outlet reviews for VStrom SX, they are poorly researched and not up to standard. Ignore the bad press and take a test ride. The bike is not the same as Gixxer 250 as the reviews claim. Everything incl. the suspension tuning, sub frame, swingarm, wheels, brakes are all different. It is truly a grounds up built adv like Sebring pointed out in his excellent, in depth review.

XPulse 300/450 is long shot and will definitely not feel the same as Xpulse 200, atleast going by the leaked images it looks heavy (It is built like an adv not a trail bike like Xpulse 200)

[drt_rdr]

Seems like this dual purpose vs adv talk has happened here multiple times now. Interesting almost everytime though because it happens so rarely.

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I think what everyone seems to want is a KTM 690 adventure, or a Honda CRF 450L, or a Husky 501 LR...

Wait a minute. The CRF 450L and Husqvarna 501 are basically dirt bikes though. And the enduro 690 is on its way there. Are you making an arguement for or against these dirt-bike based advs?

Anyway, the CRF 450L is a dream for me, but it'll likely stay a dream. No way in the foreseeable future would I be willing to fork up the 8-10L for that if honda ever brings it here. And even if I were to fork it over to honda, no way would I be able to put those horses to safe, consistent use on a regular basis. I'm just not that person unfortunately. And if I have to get on the highway to be able to safely squirt out all its power, then that's laughably antithetical to buying what's basically a dirtbike.

Personally speaking, I think power is hugely overrated for average Indian usage scenarios. As someone who doesn't have intentions of world touring or staying on multilane NHs most of the time, I think I'm good with smaller capacity bikes.

250s to 300s make perfect sense to me right now. It's within my abilities to squeeze out satisfying riding from them on all kinds of roads. Anything faster, and I'll have heart-in-mouth moments or worse all too often for the way I like to ride and the roads I like to ride.

Lets face it, if i want a dirt bike to smoke the trails where i stay, then its the Impulse or the xpulse. Plain, simple, cheap, easy.

But if i want a travel bike neither the impulse or the xpulse will cut it.

I'm kind of with you here. I have a road bike and a dual-purpose, and I like my garage this way. I want two more of the same order, but larger. Hence why I've been considering the vstrom as my next roadbike.

But.... and I've been saying this for a while now.... these lighter dualsport bikes like the impulse\xpulse aren't just for dirt and trails. They do MARVELOUSLY for everyday commutes and touring too. I mean, of course not as efficient on the road as a roadbike nor as efficient a travel bike as the likes of your adv390, but definitely more versatile and involving less effort in terms of the variety of places you can go, mainly due to the light weight. Wouldn't you want that?

I did a few 100 kms over the last weekend on the Impulse, part of which involved the Bangalore-Mysore under-construction highway. I was doing 90-100 on the smooth sections (of course at noisy, buzzy high rpms and at low fuel efficiency). And I was positively zooming ahead on the crap sections compared to the rest of the traffic. The bike didn't complain much through either.

Yeah, my bike tops out at 110 and anything over 100 comes very slow and at stupidly inefficient fuel mileage. And it's nice to have a bit more speed on reserve. But atleast, it handles the multilane highway adequately enough that when I get onto smaller state highways, hills, rural roads, trails and such, the agility and just the toy-like nature make it an utter liberating joy to use. It's a compromise I'm extremely willing to live with.

But if all someone does is in ride highways, of course, this kind of bike is definitely the wrong choice.

If the bike is too light, then the frame strength is probably sacrificed. So how does one carry some semblance of luggage for a 3 month trip to the Himalayas?

Or lets suppose, as most indians think, i want to carry my girl friend along at the back, a light trail weapon like the xpulse or the CRF 250 is not going to make that happen. Hell even the 390 adventure will feel tremendously cramped.

Riding 2up is something on which I will hands down agree with you. Larger seat space is a definite need in this case. I personally do not like riding with pillion though. I've tried it on much more comfortable bikes than my own. Too many compromises, it tends to rob the enjoyment out of the ride for both people over longer durations.

But for a solo rider... come on. The subframe cracking from the load of luggage and bad roads and all that are stories in foreign markets. Here, we see people riding triples to sextuples on splendors all the time. A bike that's made IN India FOR India will usually take into account the many antics of the common consumer. Bikes can usually be trusted to take a guy and what, 20-30kgs of luggage up north comfortably.

Lightweight doesn't necessarily mean weaker materials are used. If that were the case, my 82,000 rupee Impulse should've given up a long time ago for the kinds of stresses I've put it under.

I've put a lot of harsh kms on both my bikes over the last decade and I've had troubles with my suspensions multiple times, but never with my frames, clamps, swingarms, footpegs. And while I don't torture my bikes, I don't go easy on them either, I do abuse them (touch wood tho, I want my bikes to last me some more time). People have been traveling super long distances on impulse\xpulse for years now. I've done multiple >2k km trips on my impulse here in the south (though I travel light, just a couple of bags, I don't carry my home with me). I'm average built and butt and shoulder ache is the only major issue I face on such long rides and I'll blame that squarely on keeping my bike utterly stock as far as ergos and comfort goes.

I'll concede though that it may not be a good choice for larger people.

Now if we have the xpulse 400 and the Himalayan 450 at 180 kgs, 40hp, and great torque at 2500 rpm, good seat space for me and the luggage, good carrying capacity so the frame doesn't crack with the weight and broken roads, 21 inch front wheel, longer travel suspension, 10k service interval... I think that will have a lot of interest.

That would be a nice travel enduro bike.

They would be great travel bikes for people whose riding intentions are more mainstream.

The current bunch of advs are also well upto the task even without 21 inch wheels and 40 hp. Not saying 21 inch wheels and 40 hp are not welcome though.

I personally know people who've done the northern and NE circuit on first year model carburetted Himalayans (which are still running BTW). So, it's not like a 180kg xpulse 300\400 or himalayan 450 would bring something radical to the table.

On the other hand, if Hero were to make a sub 150 kg Xpulse 300 like Honda is doing with the ~140kg CRF300L, that would be a rarer and more valuable addition to the market.

[SoumenD]

Originally Posted by tarmacnaut

So don't go by just the media outlet reviews for VStrom SX, they are poorly researched and not up to standard.

Easy mate. What makes you think the point was based on media reviews? Had you flipped back a few pages , you would have noticed I have shared first hand ride experience within a few days of release much before any media reviews were out because am genuinely interested in getting one. Here’s the link (Suzuki V-Strom 250 SX, now launched at Rs. 2.12 lakhs) for your reference. And the suspension was one point which I had pointed out even back then. I don’t want it to be Xpulse-ish for off-roading, rather for tackling our daily roads which are kinda off-road-ish more often than none.

But like I mentioned, am still considering it as it ticks most other boxes. Cheers

[tarmacnaut]

Originally Posted by SoumenD

Easy mate. What makes you think the point was based on media reviews? Had you flipped back a few pages , you would have noticed I have shared first hand ride experience within a few days of release much before any media reviews were out because am genuinely interested in getting one. Here’s the link (Suzuki V-Strom 250 SX, now launched at Rs. 2.12 lakhs) for your reference. And the suspension was one point which I had pointed out even back then. I don’t want it to be Xpulse-ish for off-roading, rather for tackling our daily roads which are kinda off-road-ish more often than none.

But like I mentioned, am still considering it as it ticks most other boxes. Cheers

Sorry, No offence. You had mentioned that it is an established fact the VStrom SX is 'least adventurish'. This is a pretty big statement for people considering the bike. And people coming to this thread after the media reviews which also claimed the same with the reasoning being low suspension travel, might just ignore the bike.
Hence I thought maybe you had come to a conclusion that the bike is 'least adventurous' based on reviews and I am not aware of the test ride, my bad that I did not notice.

That's why I gave references on the VStrom SX's off road capabilities which are not shown in media reviews and which might not come out in dealership test rides as well

[drt_rdr]

Originally Posted by tarmacnaut

There are already few YouTube videos where VStrom trumps both Himalayan/Scram. In the video below where these bikes compete in rubber plantation...

I have to say that video is pointless. If a bike has to be prodded, pushed and pulled most of the time to go somewhere, might as well just keep the bike at home and go walking, no? It'll be a lot faster and less tiring.

It's absolutely not evidence that the VStrom does offroad well. Rather it's evidence that it does hardcore offroading like trash, and the Himalayan does it even worse.

And the thing is, you don't even need to actually go and do hardcore offroad to discover its rubbish at it. It's plenty evident right in the showroom.

[tarmacnaut]

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

I have to say that video is pointless. If a bike has to be prodded, pushed and pulled most of the time to go somewhere, might as well just keep the bike at home and go walking, no? It'll be a lot faster and less tiring.

It's absolutely not evidence that the VStrom does offroad well. Rather it's evidence that it does hardcore offroading like trash, and the Himalayan does it even worse.

And the thing is, you don't even need to actually go and do hardcore offroad to discover its rubbish at it. It's plenty evident right in the showroom.

Pointless? Off Road is NOT just 'Dirt' Road around with some gravel. Any Hardcore Riding/Driving will require 'prodding and pushing'. And here the VStrom managed to pull itself many times without effort unlike RE Himalayan.

If you think the bike will fly like a 'helicopter' on its won or that you will rather walk, then it clearly shows your ignorance and you are truly better off walking to spare some space on road. Even hardcore offroading Cars have to be towed and BMW GS has to be picked up and pushed, when the going gets hard.

[drt_rdr]

Originally Posted by tarmacnaut

Off Road is NOT just 'Dirt' Road around with some gravel.

Exactly. And you need the right equipment and skills depending on the kind of terrain you're on. You can't just show up on obese bikes wearing road-biased tyres where there's no trails and expect to have a good time "offroading" just because they're "adventure" bikes.

Any Hardcore Riding/Driving will require 'prodding and pushing'.

My friend, there's a difference between needing an occasional push and needing to be babysat and led along by pushers and pullers for the entire length of the course.

That latter happens when your skills are inadequate or your hardware is inadequate, or both, in which case, it's POINTLESS riding. Even the Duke with the road tyres made it to the end of that video. Says a few things about the "off-road" ability of the v-strom and himalayan, doesn't it?

If you think the bike will fly like a 'helicopter' on its won or that you will rather walk, then it clearly shows your ignorance and you are truly better off walking to spare some space on road. Even hardcore offroading Cars have to be towed and BMW GS has to be picked up and pushed, when the going gets hard.

Okay, man. You go push and tow your BMW GS and hardcore offroad cars and convince yourself you're having fun. To each their own.

[tarmacnaut]

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

Even the Duke with the road tyres made it to the end of that video. Says a few things about the "off-road" ability of the v-strom and himalayan, doesn't it?

Okay, man. You go push and tow your BMW GS and hardcore offroad cars and convince yourself you're having fun. To each their own.

The Duke was a first gen, it made it through because of the healthy GC of 170 mm and lighter weight that's exactly the POINT. In many situations GC and weight matter more than suspension travel. The new gen Duke with 155 mm GC would have hardly made it.

I ll be happy to push, after all I am in Bangalore and had my fair share of adventure even in traffic during monsoons. So need of any heads up. I see no point discussing this further.

[drt_rdr]

Originally Posted by tarmacnaut

The Duke was a first gen, it made it through because of the healthy GC of 170 mm and lighter weight ... The new gen Duke with 155 mm GC would have hardly made it...

... I see no point discussing this further.

Any bike can make it through if it gets pushed and assisted the entire way. GC barely even comes into the picture if you're crawling along like that.

Anyway, I agree. No point beating a dead horse to make it go. Have to push and pull it.

[tarmacnaut]

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

Any bike can make it through if it gets pushed and assisted the entire way. GC barely even comes into the picture if you're crawling along like that.

Anyway, I agree. No point beating a dead horse to make it go. Have to push and pull it.

Low GC has high chances of damaging the engine, even when crawling through these kind of terrains, all it needs is a hidden rock in mud. That's why higher GC directly translates to more adventure and is most sought after.

And a damaged engine when crossing an obstacle makes all the difference between a hardy horse and a dead horse. Hardy horse can make the journey after the push/pull while the other one, well it is better to leave it and walk away as most other dead horses.

[karanddd]

I think the point being made here is that pushing a bike in dirt is not riding. The sort of terrain people in India are pushing and pulling their bikes under the pretext of "off-roading" is wrong for these bikes. Such terrain CAN be handled on a motorcycle or ATV, but it has to be something that weighs 100kg and sits very tall, aka a genuine dirt bike. We don't have them in India, and because of that huge lacuna in our knowledge and experience we are misled into thinking that the BMW GS or Triumph Tiger are "hardcore" off-road machines, which is a laughable idea. They are travel bikes, sort of like a European, hipster take on cruisers, with some ability to handle broken roads (NOT trails). That's how they're used in most countries. Until we get genuine dirt bikes in India (to which the erstwhile Impulse and the present Xpulse are the closest thing), we cannot claim to know what off-roading or dirt riding on a motorcycle really means.

[tarmacnaut]

Originally Posted by karanddd

I think the point being made here is that pushing a bike in dirt is not riding. The sort of terrain people in India are pushing and pulling their bikes under the pretext of "off-roading" is wrong for these bikes. Such terrain CAN be handled on a motorcycle or ATV, but it has to be something that weighs 100kg and sits very tall, aka a genuine dirt bike. We don't have them in India, and because of that huge lacuna in our knowledge and experience we are misled into thinking that the BMW GS or Triumph Tiger are "hardcore" off-road machines, which is a laughable idea. They are travel bikes, sort of like a European, hipster take on cruisers, with some ability to handle broken roads (NOT trails). That's how they're used in most countries. Until we get genuine dirt bikes in India (to which the erstwhile Impulse and the present Xpulse are the closest thing), we cannot claim to know what off-roading or dirt riding on a motorcycle really means.

Thats true. Dirt Bikes are best suited for these terrains and we do not have them in our market. But ADVs should not be compared with Dirt Bikes.
Lets say one goes on a 1000km Adventure- a road trip, you need road bike manners for it. And for some reason there is an unexpected deroute into a hilly, muddy short stretch. One cannot just abandon his bike and find a dirt bike for this short stretch.
This is exactly what the ADVs are for, they inherit traits from Dirt Bike like higher seating, higher GC, Grippy Tires to handle these kind of unexpected routes on the trip. They might be just 10% as capable as a dirt bike but 100% more capable than road/sport bikes which would just rub their underbelly on the such trails and are damage prone. So even though pushing or pulling will be needed, once you cross this obstacle course you will still continue the journey without any Issues and that is what ADV owners across the globe do.
This is the exact reason Crossovers have taken the Car Market by Storm across the world, despite purists calling them as 'Psuedo SUVs'. A Sedan can never do what a crossover does just because of lower GC.
Anyways, the point I made is all the bikes in 250+ Adventure Segment are equally capable/bad off the tarmac as VStrom SX and some like Himalyan/Yezdi are unwantedly as heavy as 600cc+ ADVs for the power they make (25 to 30 bhp). So claiming VStrom SX is 'least adventurish' of the segment is an over statement and it has its own advantages over the other bikes in the segment like lesser weight.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

I mean, of course not as efficient on the road as a roadbike nor as efficient a travel bike as the likes of your adv390, but definitely more versatile and involving less effort in terms of the variety of places you can go, mainly due to the light weight. Wouldn't you want that?

Give me the 390 adventure with a retuned engine for better low end torque, longer travel suspension, 21 inch front wheel - am a happy camper. This is what everyone expected from KTM, who kind of shortchanged us, and now are making changes to the bike - as I am.

As a travel biker who will end up venturing down enduro trails, this will do very nicely for me.

Now if Hero brings us a bike with 40hp and above characteristics, I will trade. 25hp is too little for a travel enduro bike.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

But.... and I've been saying this for a while now.... these lighter dualsport bikes like the impulse\xpulse aren't just for dirt and trails. They do MARVELOUSLY for everyday commutes and touring too. I mean, of course not as efficient on the road as a roadbike nor as efficient a travel bike as the likes of your adv390, but definitely more versatile and involving less effort in terms of the variety of places you can go, mainly due to the light weight. Wouldn't you want that?

Boss, this is my use-case perfectly! I can't do any kind of off-roading, no skills. What I want is a light (have covered a lot of the country on my Bullet and I'd love a lighter bike), 300cc tourer with good GC and that I can park outside any shady lodge I stop for the night at without worrying about it attracting too much attention. Don't want fancy stuff like bluetooth connectivity either or a plastic "beak", so please make it affordable.

That's why I have fingers-crossed for what Hero is coming up with. Just hope they don't try to jazz up the bike too much in the quest to make it an "adv". And I still see several more Hero service centers on my highway rides/drives (though it's sadly drives more than rides these days!); that's peace of mind too on a long ride.

(If I had all the time in the world and it was just me, I'd throw the present XPulse on a train to cover the boring highway sections and then ride the bike to explore beyond. But since leaves are limited and I have a pillion rider for life, need a more powerful Xpulse!)