[ebonho]

Originally Posted by marcussantiago

Exactly this.

I've not heard of something like this happening on any other bike. It smells a lot of "blame a small company that makes after-market accessories" and save their skin. Because I'm guessing a tiny company making accessories probably cannot afford to risk taking Eicher to court for defamation, even if they have a good case.

It is a pretty slippery slope, if indeed it is scapegoat hunting. Because tomorrow if and when a Himalayan without an aftermarket crash guard or a company fitted crash guard breaks, then it opens up a completely different picture that can be taken to court and won. Though I do note that RE has been careful in not getting specific and naming any manufacturer, the cases of failure are conspicuous by their complete darkness on the same, including no clearly identifiable photos or video stills. We don't even know if all cases (2 or 3) had the same crash guard. It would be a REAL stretch to say anything not RE is culpable, without looking at design, material, stress points, etc. Let us wait and see. If there really is an issue, we will see more breaks. And chances are that this negative publicity about after market crash guards will ensure that bikes moving forward will probably not be equiped with these. Which then removes this variable from the conjecture.

Cheers, Doc

[Sebring]

RE had this to say. Read the last para.

"The new Himalayan 450’s chassis uses the engine as an integral and stressed member of the frame. The Sherpa 450 engine is mounted to the tubular steel main frame at 3 points, 2 at the top on either side of the engine head and one at the bottom.

The bolts that connect the engine to frame are specialised, load-bearing units which are designed to be able to retain the correct torque specifications over a long term period. Moreover the connection between the chassis and the engine also uses a specifically designed spacer that is integral towards retaining the torque setting and correctly spreading the load from the bolt.

In both instances, when the customer installed the aftermarket protective guard, different specs of bolts were used and this likely led to incorrect torque settings."

Originally Posted by marcussantiago

I could understand a scenario where someone did something really irresponsible with their modifications

[BullettuPaandi]

Originally Posted by prakash_ajp

I am sure there's millions of bikes with aftermarket crash guards installed and a fair number of them have seen a fall or two. The question that comes to my mind is, how many of those resulted in chassis breaking down?

Originally Posted by marcussantiago

So why is the Himalayan so special?

Most, if not all, of those crash guards don't share mounting points with the engine.

Either the motorcycles have discrete mounting points (from the factory) for crash guards or the after-market guards come with 'clamps' that hold the guard in position. The former is the better approach- letting chassis designers decide where any crash guard goes after considering things like distribution of force upon impact; the latter is less likely to cause issues because the weakest link is the clamp itself. Upon impact, the clamp would just 'give' and let the guard pivot like a hinge.

[VijayAnand1]

This still perhaps is in discord with respect to RE's analysis. Though I'm not an expert, RE should have made sure these discrepancies were thought out considering the mod jobs such bikes would be subjected to and marketed at. Of course there's plenty of 450s running without a glitch and much abuse.

Rather what's interesting to see, is how fragile the chassis is irrespective of the engine being a stressed member and the the investigation vindication -- simply isn't conclusive and summative at least for me.

RE should make sure it releases an official press statement informing potential and existing customers the implications of such mods, be wary of the installation process and/or the bolt and torque values in question so that such potential safety mods doesn't end up being a potential hazard.


Cheers!
VJ

[Nilesh5417]

Looking at posts #31, #33, #36 and RE's explanation, to me it sounds less of a problem with the quality of the aftermarket guards and more of the installation process.

It's all together a different topic on why other thousands of small bikes run with aftermarket guards and these 3 H450 seemed to have fractured frames. Guess it's got to do with which other small bikes - splendor isnt a good example cause it's not an ADV, the speldor owner is not going to complain on forums, and the media isn't going to care even if he does unless the issue is truly widespread.

But it's interesting to see the link on post #46 where a NC500X has the same issue as H450.

I would not jump to conclusions but for sure.wont install aftermarket accessories like engine guards from a local mech now that we know of the issue. Best to get it from a competent FNG who understands the factory fitment / tech specs and can ensure the accessory works without causing this issue. Of course easier if you skip aftermarket accessories altogether but it's not always possible.

In fact, am now even worried about the fitment of the RE engine guard that I have from the official RE service center. It's not always that the service center mechs are truly always aware of nitty gritties!

[tchsvy]

Crash guards are the first accessory every biker installs on their bike. I mean, this is common knowledge. I wonder why RE didn't think of this when they designed the 'specialized, load bearing' bolts. If they cannot accommodate the crash guard and forced the owners to use after market bolts (as claimed by the owners), RE should accept their share of the blame.

[prakash_ajp]

Originally Posted by BullettuPaandi

Most, if not all, of those crash guards don't share mounting points with the engine.

Either the motorcycles have discrete mounting points (from the factory) for crash guards or the after-market guards come with 'clamps' that hold the guard in position. The former is the better approach- letting chassis designers decide where any crash guard goes after considering things like distribution of force upon impact; the latter is less likely to cause issues because the weakest link is the clamp itself. Upon impact, the clamp would just 'give' and let the guard pivot like a hinge.

That's informative, thanks! But that's not what/how a layman thinks or cares about. Last week, I had gone to test-ride the V Strom 250 and when I casually mentioned that the Himalayan was one of my options (which it wasn't), he immediately countered with the chassis breaking stories. A regular customer is likely to be taken aback and not going to be able to defend the bike even if he wanted to.

[TheHelix0202]

Originally Posted by prakash_ajp

That's informative, thanks! But that's not what/how a layman thinks or cares about. Last week, I had gone to test-ride the V Strom 250 and when I casually mentioned that the Himalayan was one of my options (which it wasn't), he immediately countered with the chassis breaking stories. A regular customer is likely to be taken aback and not going to be able to defend the bike even if he wanted to.

Well said. Car (and as an extension, bike) salesmen are probably the most commonly despised lot around the world.

I have faced several instances where the SA would try to pull wool over my eyes, especially if I’m with my family which doesn't care for vehicles all that much. Even as someone who’s pretty well versed with what’s what, it’s hard for me to deal with these guys and call them out on their BS.

[VijayAnand1]

Another one from Abhinav on the technical aspects of why the chassis snapped like a twig.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQvtLGji660

My Take: So the bottomline is, if there is a crash guard or there isn't a crash guard, if the bolts start to slowly undo themselves -- let's just say we talk hypothetically from an RE's engine vibration perspective -- the bolts get loose over time, the rider doesn't know that, the graph spikes and the chassis snaps. So eventually -- just playing the Devil's Advocate, it's not the crash guard at the end of the day, it's the design itself and that is, either one agrees or disagrees is a blunder from an engineering perspective.

Cheers!
VJ

[ebonho]

Engine foundation bolts do not just loosen on their own. Tens of thousands of very hard run kilometres on two very raw Bullet 500s from REs own heritage stable over 23 years all over India have taught me that. Both running the original British frame that has done duty for the Indian Army for decades over the harshest terrains, in peace and war. Those frames do not break like this. And they also use the engine as a stressed member. Same metal. Same production line. Made by the same people in the same factory.

The notable difference to my non trained technically eye is that the Himalayan engine is both a stressed member front and rear ar the level of the sump casing but equally is also hanging from the top. Whereas the old Bullet engines were stressed members only front and rear, and the cylinder and head were free. There used ro be only a "head steady" bolted rod at the top. Even if that got loose, and the bolt fell off (it happened ... those bikes vibrate violently), nothing happened to the engine or the frame. Yes, you got a free massage.

Also of note, those old Bullet engines were two piece. The engine and the gearbox. Seperate. The gearbox was attached (speared) to the engine with 4 long studs, that finally joined it (both) to the frame. Not a single unit like all new RE engines, including the Himalayan. A change dating back to the UCE in 2010 (I think). And I think the old 500 engine together with its gearbox weighs in at around 48 kilos on its own. No idea about the new unit construction engines.

Cheers, Doc

[BullettuPaandi]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

it's not the crash guard at the end of the day, it's the design itself and that is, either one agrees or disagrees is a blunder from an engineering perspective.

A bit hard to tell if you're calling the design/engineering of the crash guard a blunder or the RE's chassis. If it's the RE's chassis, I disagree.

Bolts get loosened over time only if not properly torqued or not locked with adequate thread lockers - both QC issues.

The after-market crash guard has to come with it's own bolts, which in this case turns out were incapable of holding the guard and the engine to the chassis. So, I'd argue that it IS the crash guard at the end of the day, as the hardware required to mount is part of the product.

RE could've mentioned the necessity of these 'specialised' hardware in their manual alongside the usual 'warranty will be void'. I guess, whoever was responsible for the contents of the manual must've felt not obligated to do so, or worse, uninformed. Either way, RE's management would be to blame and not the designers/engineers.

[Sebring]

a. In both cases RE has honoured warranty, replaced chassis and engine mounting.
b. (worrying) I have seen that RE service centers themselves do not have the torque wrench they vaunt about. So bolts are torqued as per 'feel'.

[sv5lh44]

Originally Posted by Sebring

b. (worrying) I have seen that RE service centers themselves do not have the torque wrench they vaunt about. So bolts are torqued as per 'feel'.

Yeah, went to the service center yesterday for a possible misalignment of my rally crash guard. Asked the technician who installed the crash guard on my bike and he didn't even know what a torque wrench was. Asked the service manager about this and he blatantly said that torque need not be set for this, it's only for the front fork
Checked RE's GMA instructions for rally crash guard (link here) and will get it torqued accordingly.

[nasirkaka]

What if there was an added cross member, converting the engine-stressed frame into a semi-diamond one, something like the picture below. With these ADV bikes, where the rider gets (unwritten) license to subject bike to harshest of torture, it may make sense to over-engineer than to be sorry.

Aftermarket crashguard makers should also try and not fiddle with the critical points on the bike. Think of some other innovative ways of mounting the engine guard, using innovative joineries and clamps.

[timuseravan]

The only mistake RE made was not providing proper crash guard/frame slider mounting point separate from the main engine mounting bolts. I guess RE will learn this lesson and revise the chassis to provide such separate mounting points.