[rajneeesh]

While the Etios is aimed at the lower C segment I have my doubt's if it will be able to dethrone the Dzire.

The reason is quite simply the manufacturing capacity of the Etios Plant. With a capacity of 70,000 cars ( split between the sedan and the hatchback) it translates to less than 6000 cars /month . The Dzire is selling roughly 10 k units/ month.

MSIL is also ramping up the capacity and with the new Swift about to be launched can the new Dzire be far behind? MSIL will continue to rule this segment but the long waiting lists should become shorter.

It remains to be seen how competent is the Toyota *SS network when the number of vehicles coming in for service increases.

Tyota has been very conservative and though they have the right products for the Indian market, do they have the aggession to aim for the leadership position?

LET THE FUN AND GAMES BEGIN. MORE POWER TO THE CUSTOMER

[amalji]

Originally Posted by adimicra

For me, the fun in driving a petrol car is when you rev near the redline. If you read the specs, all petrol cars including Etios develops peak power at higher rpms. For example, Etios develops peak power at 5500 rpm. So, if the car gets buzzy at 4500 rpm+, how is one going to use the 90 odd horses?
Yes, driveability is important but that alone can't put Etios as a 'performance' sedan.

I beg to differ here. You get the top most acceleration, when you are at max torque, and that's when you enjoy the ride. The advantage with Petrol engines are that the torque curve stays flat. And hence, you can enjoy the acceleration feeling for a longer range. With Etios, the maximum torque is developed at around 3000rpm which is the mid range and is achieved more often under normal driving conditions even when you feel like accelerating to overtake on a highway. After 3000 rpm, the torque starts decreasing slowly, until a point is reached where the torque goes for a free fall. It's at this point that the maximum power is calculated. It just gives you the range to which you can take the vehicle to. Doesn't necessarily translate into driving pleasure at such high rpms. You will get better acceleration at lower rpms.

Originally Posted by adimicra

I am not representing the buyers in the segmet. I am representing myself and giving my opinions.

I was looking from a real buyer's angle. And Etios is a real attractive package for me. And I never thought of going beyond this price range.

Originally Posted by adimicra

That is a wrong assumption. Have given reasons for my statement earlier.

And I had replied to that. Quoting them in italics.

In fact, I did make that assumption on the basis of a logic.
Firstly, I took the ARAI mileage as the base for comparison.

ARAI for Etios is 17.4 & for Dzire it's 17.9 ==> very closely matched.

Now, the assumptions are
ARAI test conditions are very similar to highway driving conditions
If 2 cars gives approx the same mileage on highway, the car with higher torque on low rpm will give higher mileage on city

This should hold true always unless there is another factor to add to like the turbo. Since, both these cars are not turbo engines, that also doesn't come into the picture. In addition, Etios also has the added advantage that it's 100kgs lighter than the Dzire which means it infact doesn't need as much torque as needed to be pulled from a slow speed which makes it very driveable at high gears which will come in very handy in city driving conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra
I will give a simple example -
The Polo petrol has a higher torque at lower rpms compared to say the Swift K12 motor.
But, Swift is clearly the most fuel efficient car. (See the test-drive section in TBHP).

Same case with the Santro and say, the A-star. Santro has higher torque at lower rpms but A-star is the more Fuel efficient.
Here, we don't take the ARAI test mileage as the base. ARAI of A-star is better than both the cars we take for comparison. So, we cannot compare these cars on the same logic. Plus, there is another factor as well. Polo is heavier than Swift. Similarly Santro is heavier than A-Star.

Originally Posted by adimicra

Good that you have seen.I haven't seen mine but the pics from several sources tells me that this is an ugly car from the outside and more on the inside.

Don't expect a ANHC or Fiesta for that matter. Compare it with the Dzire and Manza, and it looks like a Sedan ( at least ). Agreed that there are no curving or linings. But, that is done to save on cost. As far as the practicality is there, these kind of cost cuttings are acceptable by the segment.

Originally Posted by adimicra

Let us know how you feel about the drive.
But looks like you are sold on the Etios

I'll be lying , if I don't admit that :P
But, you can trust me for a true review of the ride. I've started driving from the age of 17 and has been enjoying that for the last 12 years. You will get a true review.

Originally Posted by rajneeesh

While the Etios is aimed at the lower C segment I have my doubt's if it will be able to dethrone the Dzire.

The reason is quite simply the manufacturing capacity of the Etios Plant. With a capacity of 70,000 cars ( split between the sedan and the hatchback) it translates to less than 6000 cars /month . The Dzire is selling roughly 10 k units/ month.

Truely a concern. I saw someone mention on the forums that the waiting period for Etios in Kochi is 10 months! That's bad planning from Toyota!

Originally Posted by rajneeesh

MSIL is also ramping up the capacity and with the new Swift about to be launched can the new Dzire be far behind? MSIL will continue to rule this segment but the long waiting lists should become shorter.

Yes, in the end, the customer benefits.

Originally Posted by rajneeesh

It remains to be seen how competent is the Toyota *SS network when the number of vehicles coming in for service increases.

Tyota has been very conservative and though they have the right products for the Indian market, do they have the aggession to aim for the leadership position?

LET THE FUN AND GAMES BEGIN. MORE POWER TO THE CUSTOMER

Toyota have no other option, but to be aggressive in India.

Thanks to

• recall havoc
• Economic slowdown in markets where Toyota has it's major market share
• Govt Economic Stimulus packages for auto sector on countries where VW was leading the race

Toyota is gonna ( or might have already lost ) lose the No:1 car manufacturer position to VW. The only way to prevent that is the Etios. So, Etios is such an important car for them.

[adimicra]

Originally Posted by amalji

I beg to differ here. You get the top most acceleration, when you are at max torque, and that's when you enjoy the ride. The advantage with Petrol engines are that the torque curve stays flat. And hence, you can enjoy the acceleration feeling for a longer range. With Etios, the maximum torque is developed at around 3000rpm which is the mid range and is achieved more often under normal driving conditions even when you feel like accelerating to overtake on a highway. After 3000 rpm, the torque starts decreasing slowly, until a point is reached where the torque goes for a free fall. It's at this point that the maximum power is calculated. It just gives you the range to which you can take the vehicle to. Doesn't necessarily translate into driving pleasure at such high rpms. You will get better acceleration at lower rpms.

It is going off-topic but if what you say is true, diesel cars will be faster than petrol cars but it is not the case mostly.
Petrol cars normally outgun diesels as they can rev all the way till the redline(6000-6500 rpm) whereas the diesels will run out of breadth after 3500-400 rpm.
If you shift gears at 4000 rpm in a petrol car, you will not be going the fastest . Period.

Originally Posted by amalji

. Plus, there is another factor as well. Polo is heavier than Swift. Similarly Santro is heavier than A-Star.

[/b]

Well, you can take the Polo and Jazz - both have same weight and Polo has slightly more torque at lower rpms but Jazz is clearly more fuel efficient (as per TBHP review and other auto mags as well). I don't know much about ARAI but I don't give much importance to that number. Jazz has ARAI of 16 kmpl and the Polo 17 kmpl. But that does not match up in the real life. Does it?

Anyway, enough of argument. I leave my case and wish you all the best for the Etios.
And will look forward to your review of the TD

[gshanky]

Originally Posted by amalji

Yes, we could agree to disagree. For me, Toyota needs a pat on the back for designing this car for the masses. When no other foreign car manufacturer had the courage to enter the volume segment for sedan cars, the no: 1 car manufacturer did and I appreciate them for that.

And then did that without compromising on performance, mileage, space, comfort, durability and utility. All they did was to ignore the looks ( interior as well as exterior ). The segment doesn't demand looks. The volume sedan segment needs a practical car and that's just what Toyota gave the Indian customer. If Toyota creates a sedan car which can sell 70k to 1lakh per year, it's not being disrespectful to the Indians, but is understanding what Indians give priority for. We Indians can be proud that we give priority to practicality than the looks

How did Toyota become no.1 car manufacturer without entering volume segment? Beats me!!

They currently sort of lead the volume segment in many countries all over the world.

Originally Posted by amalji

I consider the Baleno engine a league above Dzire. Specs and driveabilty of Etios looks similar to Baleno. I'll say more on it, after trying it out myself next week.

I don't know why you would compare the Baleno engine at all while the reviewer says this (please look at what I have highlighted in bold).

The Etios is extremely tractable and makes light work of driving about in urban conditions; you won’t be working the gear lever as often as in most other petrol cars. Keep the magic pedal buried and the Etios responds with decent pep for a sedan with 89 BHP on tap. It’s fast enough by segment standards, while the mid-range is punchy for highway overtaking as well. The revv limiter cuts in at a low 5,900 rpm, not an engine for high-revving enthusiasts at all. The refinement levels are acceptable up until 4,000 rpm. Thereafter, the powerplant starts getting buzzy at 4,500 rpm, and is pretty loud at 5,000. If you frequently redline the engine, your family / co-occupants will surely get annoyed by the excessive noise. Just like big brother Altis, it’s best to work the torque between 1,500 – 4,000 rpm. Even when you are in a hurry, don’t revv above 5,000 rpm! The Dzire’s K series engine is definitely the revv-happier & more refined on the limit. The 5th gear isn’t too tall. Actually, all of the gear ratios seem to be tuned short for city driveability. On the highway at 120 kph, the revv needle is hovering over 3,000 rpm. If you are a regular expressway tripper, you’d probably want a taller 5th gear, or miss a 6th. The 5 speed gearbox is very smooth to use. Positive shift quality, well defined gates and the throw is just right too (not too long or too short).

So, as per the review the Etios engine is definitely not better than the K-series engine in Dzire.

Originally Posted by amalji

And I didn't mean to get personal. If you felt so, my sincere apologies.

I meant that saying things like "you conveniently forgot this and that" is unhealthy for a discussion because I am highlighting things are found wanting in Etios as per the review and hence saying that Etios is not ready to be declared either segment leader or best in segment or something along those lines. I am just saying that Etios is an average car that will sell just by the brand value. i.e. if the same car (with same engine, gear and everything) were badged a TATA or Mahindra then so much less interest would be shown at this vehicle.

On the contrary I find that you are trying to highlight the finer points saying along the lines of "Etios is the best in the segment". So, no apologies needed. I only hope we will stick to the points of discussion.

Originally Posted by amalji

I'm not the kind of person who rates a brand ( or even a person by the last job/mistake they did ). At the same time, I accept the fact you are not such a kind. We can gladly agree to disagree here.

So this means that you don't want to evaluate things accurately. And this may cause you to make bad decisions. I on the contrary call a spade a spade. i.e. Toyota is capable of producing average, not so good cars. And I have proof from their past failure like Echo, which seems to be the base for Etios.

Let's leave the idea of rating/judging persons out of this discussion.

Originally Posted by amalji

There is a breed called resident Indians, and if they adore a brand, it's not because they are foolish. But, because of their previous experience with that brand. If you want to say that Indians were foolish to buy qualis, innova and consider that premium, it's your lack of understanding of standard of living of an average Indian. Now, take the case where we - resident Indians were foolish for the first year. We simply cannot continue to be foolish for several years, rt? If we adore a brand, it's because we consider that a value proposition. We cannot afford to spend a fortune on a car and then spend another fortune to maintain a car. We also don't have the luxury of throwing away a car after a few years. We are earning Indian salary, and buying a car forms a considerable share of the family budget. And when we buy a car, we expect that car to last without creating hassles or high maintenance cost. And that's why Japanese and Korean cars sell in such high numbers in India.

For eg:- Hyundai is considered one of the better brands in India. Go to middle east and u will see that it's considered a cheap brand there. For people who own a Merc or BMW, it will feel like a joke. But, that's not the case with the common man. The common man adores brand - Toyota and that's not because they are a frog inside a pond, but because the money spent is that much more important and don't want to make a mistake there.

Don't try to put words in my mouth like "If you want to say that Indians were foolish to buy qualis, innova and consider that premium". IMO qualis and Innova are good cars but they are not premium. I hope many indians (resident, non-resident and everyone else) would agree.

Again - "Common man adores Toyota" does not make it premium. I know a lot of Common men adoring TATA and Mahindra. But that does not make those brands premium does it?

I take it that you like Toyota. So would other people like other brands. But that should not make the brand premium. Lets leave it at that.

Originally Posted by amalji

If the word premium is hurting you, I can take it back and instead say that Toyota is an adored brand in India.

I think I am a bit more stable than to let a word in praise of Toyota hurt me . However premium is not the right word associated with Toyota the world over and I am highlighting that. Like Toyota, there are many brands which are adored in India and that should not make them premium. Don't you agree?

Originally Posted by amalji

Show me one Indian website or auto magazine which wrote bad about the Etios engine. I'll reply more on this after driving the Etios next week. And with regards to Logan, I've driven it and I prefer my esteem to the Logan as far as driving thrill is concerned! And no, I'm not a person who take the rpms to the limit. I might take it till 4000, if I feel like sprinting. Else, I shift at 2,500

Now wait a second, where did I say any website said anything bad about Etios engine? I am not sure if you are being confused reading so much stuff in this thread. All I said was that similar to Logan engine, Etios engine also became noisy at high rpms and so they are comparable. Now why would that make Etios engine bad?

Again my reference was along the lines of "Etios engine is buzzy/noisy at higher rpms more than 4500". And this was mentioned by GTO in the review and I hope you read that. That is my only point of discussion regarding the engine.

[airbender]

Originally Posted by amalji

What he meant was that the it's difficult to unmount/remount a part on a FIAT/Ford. Another example is for replacing/fixing something the speedometer, you might end up unmounting a lot a parts.

I am not sure if that's correct. Though I am not an expert on this, me and my friends owned Toyota's, honda's, Gm's, Ford's while we were students here in US. Agreed Honda's followed by toyota's & Nissan's are most reliable with least maintenance costs but the mechanics we interected were happy to service US brands than Japs. Maybe an expert on the forum can get us more information.

[asethi]

I had a look at the car last weekend, and personally really not impressed with the car. And after so much hype behind the launch, it was a disappointment. The interior quality is just OK, the dashboard felt as if it will break if I pressed it hard.
Just a hype, not much substance in the car! Plus the 7 month waiting period in Bangalore is a deal killer.
And Toyota will have to really push hard to compete with Dzire!

[ani_meher]

I saw the car yesterday in Pune. I had really high expections, and simply put, they were not met. The car looks great from the outside, nice finishing and all. But once you step inside, the lack of quality is glaring. Toyota salesmen are shouting 'Space, mileage, brand name' repeatedly, but the product really doesn't stand anywhere close to atleast 'apparent' quality by peers like Figo.

1. The AC vents really look ugly to see and to use.
2. Cost cutting everywhere, no beading on doors, flimsy stitching of seats
3. Perforated boot not inspiring
4. small spaces have hurried up finishing. For example, see under wheel arches/door hinges/plastic quality at the bottom of the boot

The space is undoubtedly huge. The rear headroom didn't feel too great, neither the seats too comfortable.

I think this can be a good workhorse, but not something the owner would love. I had great hopes :(

[amalji]

Originally Posted by adimicra

It is going off-topic but if what you say is true, diesel cars will be faster than petrol cars but it is not the case mostly.
Petrol cars normally outgun diesels as they can rev all the way till the redline(6000-6500 rpm) whereas the diesels will run out of breadth after 3500-400 rpm.
If you shift gears at 4000 rpm in a petrol car, you will not be going the fastest . Period.

The reason why it's easy for one to overtake a diesel car is because of the following reasons.

1) Turbo lag. ( By the time, the diesel reaches an rpm of 2000 rpm, Petrol would have already made up a good speed. It's from there that Diesel turbo engine with turbo lags starts pulling with that huge torque. But, since Petrol engine already has the relative speed advantage at that point. It can still continue to cruise ahead with lesser torque. Even after that, the torque of Petrol engines starts to rise, while that of the diesel engines starts to come down steeply.

2) For engines with no turbo lag, the culprit is the steep lose in torque after 2000 rpm. The torque curve comes down very fast while that of Petrol increases.

3) If a diesel engine loses its steam at 4000 rpm, a normal driver will prefer to shift by 3000 because he doesn't want to strain the engine. While, in Petrol, this may go upto 4000 ( I'm talking about normal drivers who drive fast, but who don't go for drag race )

And in Etios, you can very well afford to shift at 4000, because you fall exactly in the power band to continue the madness. This specific reason is why anyone will love driving the Baleno or Lancer Petrol more than the Swift Dzire. Simply because maximum torque delivery is when you really need it. Not at an rpm which is rarely possible on Indian driving conditions.

Originally Posted by adimicra

Well, you can take the Polo and Jazz - both have same weight and Polo has slightly more torque at lower rpms but Jazz is clearly more fuel efficient (as per TBHP review and other auto mags as well). I don't know much about ARAI but I don't give much importance to that number. Jazz has ARAI of 16 kmpl and the Polo 17 kmpl. But that does not match up in the real life. Does it?

There can be slight variations in ARAI calculation. Polo and Jazz torque is not that different to compare. Here the difference is huge. I'll write it in figures.

The K-Series engine attains a maximum torque of 113Nm at a very high rpm of 4500.
Etios Engines attains the same torque at 1400 rpm ! Isn't that a huge difference ?

The minimum torque of the Etios engine ( in the driveable range of 1200 - 5000 ), is approximately equal to the maximum torque of the K-Series engine ( @ a rare rpm of 4500 ) and that's the reason why I say that this engine is from a class above the K-Series for the target segment, even though it might be an older technology engine. Unless, you don't want to do drag racing ( Even that, you can do more efficiently than K-Series, if you are ok with the Buzz ), Etios engine will be a new experience for the Swift drivers.

Originally Posted by adimicra

Anyway, enough of argument. I leave my case and wish you all the best for the Etios.
And will look forward to your review of the TD

I enjoyed the debate. And, I'm a great fan of Honda as well. Jazz was something I eagerly waited for. But, got disappointed with the pricing. Envy the owners of Jazz. :(

Originally Posted by gshanky

How did Toyota become no.1 car manufacturer without entering volume segment? Beats me!!
They currently sort of lead the volume segment in many countries all over the world.

We are talking about India where Price and tax is a major constraint.
And it's for a reason that Toyota leads the volume segment in many countries.

Originally Posted by gshanky

I don't know why you would compare the Baleno engine at all while the reviewer says this (please look at what I have highlighted in bold).

So, as per the review the Etios engine is definitely not better than the K-series engine in Dzire.

Please see the torque curves below ( attachments ) for the Etios and the Baleno.
If you can source the Torque curve for Lancer, please do that. I'm sure that will also look very similar.

Now, you don't even need a graph to say that the Etios engine is one class above because the maximum torque achieved by K-Series at an improbable rpm of 4500 is achieved by Etios at a meagre tap of the pedal at 1400 rpm.

And the minimum torque of the Etios ( @ 1200 rpm ) is just 3 points less than the maximum torque of K-Series. Now, if you want me to compare the maximum torque, that is 19Nm more than the K-Series, that too at a practical driving range of 3000 rpms. Check the torque curve for Baleno and Lancer and see where the torque peaks at. It's because they peak at the mid range, like the Etios that these cars are such fun to drive in our roads.

The most exciting thing is that all of this power needs to pull a 100 kg lighter car. That makes it even more fun. And as per GTO, the car stays planted even with the light weight ==> excitement.

The safety pack option ( ABS + Airbag ) even for their cheap variants ==> Toyota has made it possible for customers with a budget constraint to opt for safety, if they need to.

Now, comes the point with regards to 3000rpm @ 120kmph. Now, what's the speciality with that? You see anything interesting over there? Etios is at its peak power on 5th when cruising at 120kmph. Push your pedal and the car will continue to push through. Considering that the car is designed to go at 140kmph max ( segment demand ), that's pretty good gear ratio.

So, except when you want to do a drag race, this engine seems to be a super duper performer.
And if you still want to do a drag race, buy a set of cotton buds, push it into your ear, forget the buzz and just race. ( Just joking, don't take it badly )

Originally Posted by gshanky

I meant that saying things like "you conveniently forgot this and that" is unhealthy for a discussion because I am highlighting things are found wanting in Etios as per the review and hence saying that Etios is not ready to be declared either segment leader or best in segment or something along those lines.

I wrote like that because I doubted your intentions at that point of time. Now, I understand, and I trust your words. So, again, sincere apologies.

Originally Posted by gshanky

I am just saying that Etios is an average car that will sell just by the brand value. i.e. if the same car (with same engine, gear and everything) were badged a TATA or Mahindra then so much less interest would be shown at this vehicle.

For me, Etios is a performance car in the volume sedan segment with a lot of space and practicality. Practicality and target segment's need is given more priority than over engineering. Who knows, the new Swift Dzire may come up with a 1.4L K-Series, which can beat this engine without compromising on mileage. At that time, I'll support the Dzire. For now, my support goes to this beast named Etios, which will be so much fun to drive.

Originally Posted by gshanky

So this means that you don't want to evaluate things accurately. And this may cause you to make bad decisions. I on the contrary call a spade a spade. i.e. Toyota is capable of producing average, not so good cars. And I have proof from their past failure like Echo, which seems to be the base for Etios.

My philosophy has rarely let me down. I hope, yours don't let you down as well. We can gladly agree to disagree here.

Originally Posted by gshanky

I take it that you like Toyota. So would other people like other brands. But that should not make the brand premium. Lets leave it at that.


I think I am a bit more stable than to let a word in praise of Toyota hurt me . However premium is not the right word associated with Toyota the world over and I am highlighting that. Like Toyota, there are many brands which are adored in India and that should not make them premium. Don't you agree?

This is a useless discussion. Let Toyota, Maruti, Tata and Mahindra worry about the brand image part. We can continue our discussion on what we get.

Originally Posted by gshanky

Now wait a second, where did I say any website said anything bad about Etios engine? I am not sure if you are being confused reading so much stuff in this thread. All I said was that similar to Logan engine, Etios engine also became noisy at high rpms and so they are comparable. Now why would that make Etios engine bad?

Simply because I have driven a Logan and don't like it one bit. I'll ride the Etios engine, and if it drives like the Logan, I'll eat all my words.

Originally Posted by gshanky

Again my reference was along the lines of "Etios engine is buzzy/noisy at higher rpms more than 4500". And this was mentioned by GTO in the review and I hope you read that. That is my only point of discussion regarding the engine.

Etios gives the maximum torque at 3000 rpm. So, a shift at 3500 - 4000 rpm will give you excellent fun. Whereas Dzires torque peaks at 4500 rpm. So, to get the fun, you will need to take it to such high rpms. With Etios you don't need to ( unless if you want to do a drag race )

PS: In the torque curve, first image is Baleno, and the second is Etios.
Etios torque curve y-axis looks amplified for Etios because the scale is smaller on y-axis. Shape is the almost the same, so is the minimum torque, maximum torque, and where the torque peaks at.

[adimicra]

@amalji,

I thought of writing a long reply as I too love debates but my energy levels are pretty low now.
So, I will save it for some other day

One point I can never agree is you calling Etios a 'performance' car and 'beast' and what not!I guess we can disagree here without further debate. Actually, I find these particular comments of yours too funny to debate!
Do a 0-100 in the Etios by shifting at 4000 rpm and repeat the same in the DZire by shifting at redline and you will know who the winner is.
And who says redlining is not possible or improbable in our driving conditions? It depends on the driving style - I redline my car almost everyday!

One question - what is the source of your power and torque curve for Etios and DZire? Kindly point me to the same. Thanks.

[altius]

Lot of people seem to have been disappointed with the interiors of Etios, but I don't find it surprising. If Toyota is selling a car at Tata or Maruti price, then there are bound to be some cost cutting and the car won't be of Corolla quality. More so because this is supposed to be a all new platform and Toyota would have invested heavily for platform and manufacturing and would need to make money on the car! People would have to evaluate the merits and demerits of the car based in their requirements and make a decision.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by adimicra

@amalji,

I thought of writing a long reply as I too love debates but my energy levels are pretty low now.
So, I will save it for some other day

I'll wait. No issues. As long as you have genuine points, it will be fun.

Originally Posted by adimicra

One point I can never agree is you calling Etios a 'performance' car and 'beast' and what not!I guess we can disagree here without further debate. Actually, I find these particular comments of yours too funny to debate!

Specs says so. Most drivers in the segment drive the cars below 3000 or maybe 4000. For them, this car is going to give them a new experience.

For eg:-, If I'm given 2 options.

Lancer/Baleno ( with rpm blocked at 4500 rpm )
Swift Dzire ( with rpm blocked at 6000 rpm )

PS: Forget the interiors. Just consider the driving pleasure.

I would definitely chose the Lancer/Baleno option because it produces huge flat torque without putting strain on the engine. If Etios gives that fun with the mileage of the Dzire, now that's something exciting for me.

Originally Posted by adimicra

Do a 0-100 in the Etios by shifting at 4000 rpm and repeat the same in the DZire by shifting at redline and you will know who the winner is.
And who says redlining is not possible or improbable in our driving conditions? It depends on the driving style - I redline my car almost everyday!

I never debated that. That's the reason why I mentioned - except for drag racing. If you want to do a drag, Etios can still perform better but, will have to buy cotton buds as well.

But, Toyota has played smart here by not doing the over-engineering. They gave a class above feel for the engine for most drivers in the segment with a Dzire mileage.

Originally Posted by adimicra

One question - what is the source of your power and torque curve for Etios and DZire? Kindly point me to the same. Thanks.

What I posted was the torque curve for Baleno and Etios just to prove my point that Etios engine is in the class of Baleno ( not the Dzire's ) Dzire torque curve doesn't need to be mentioned here, because the maximum torque for Dzire almost equal to minimum torque for the Etios.

Etios torque curve from the Etios website ( Thanks to Toyota for being transparent here ) - TOYOTA - ETIOS Q Class

Baleno Torque curve from a friend working in Maruti.

If you could, please source the torque curve for the old Petrol Lancer. I'm sure, it will look the same. Because Baleno and Lancer were so similar to drive around.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by adimicra

One point I can never agree is you calling Etios a 'performance' car

The Etios is the quickest sedan in its segment.

Do a 0-100 in the Etios by shifting at 4000 rpm and repeat the same in the DZire by shifting at redline and you will know who the winner is.

I have done both and can tell you that the Etios is the winner. You do NOT need to upshift at 4,000 rpms in the Etios. The engine can be redlined to 5,900 odd...only thing is, it's not as refined as the Dzire unit above 5,000. That surely doesn't mean you have to upshift at 4,000. Lets stop making ridiculous statements here.

Not only does the Etios have more power than the Dzire, it's also significantly lighter. Look up the power-to-weight stats on the opening page.

[adimicra]

Originally Posted by GTO

The Etios is the quickest sedan in its segment.



I have done both and can tell you that the Etios is the winner. You do NOT need to upshift at 4,000 rpms in the Etios. The engine can be redlined to 5,900 odd...only thing is, it's not as refined as the Dzire unit above 5,000. That surely doesn't mean you have to upshift at 4,000. Lets stop making ridiculous statements here.

Not only does the Etios have more power than the Dzire, it's also significantly lighter. Look up the power-to-weight stats on the opening page.

Kindly read my comment carefully. Nowhere I have said you need to upshift at 4000 rpm in the Etios.
If the engine gets buzzzy at higher rpms (>4500 rpm a per your orginal review), I am sure most of us would not like to rev it to the redline unless you want to prove a point. In the same vein, if some engine is smooth, rev-happy and reasonably refined upto the redline, it will definitely entice the enthusiast in you to redline it.

I know the power-to-weight ratio of these cars.If power-to-weight ratio is all that matters about performance, why have detailed reviews and debates?

A debate is supposed to have arguments and counter-arguments. If some comments seem ridiculous to some body, I can't help it though that was never the intention.

Anyway, ridiculous is subjective.
What might seem ridiculous to somone may not be the same to other and vice versa.I find calling Etios a 'performance' car and 'beast' pretty ridiculous!

[amalji]

Originally Posted by adimicra

Anyway, ridiculous is subjective.
What might seem ridiculous to somone may not be the same to other and vice versa.I find calling Etios a 'performance' car and 'beast' pretty ridiculous!

A torque curve comparable to the Baleno ( verified ) and the Lancer ( not yet verified ) on the Dzire segment with the mileage of Dzire is indeed raw performance.

And as GTO said, inspite of shifting at 4000, the Etios was still quicker which means 0.5 second loss in shifting gears during low speeds also doesn't prevent Etios from being the quicker among the 2. You heard it from the person who drove it. You don't need to redline the Etios to beat the Dzire in speed.
And it's not surprising, because the torque curve is 'imported', from a segment above.
Again, after all it's a 1.5 L engine & is supposed to serve the job without putting strain on the engine, and that's exactly what the Etios does.

[anilisanil]

Originally Posted by adimicra

@amalji,

I thought of writing a long reply as I too love debates but my energy levels are pretty low now.
So, I will save it for some other day

One point I can never agree is you calling Etios a 'performance' car and 'beast' and what not!I guess we can disagree here without further debate. Actually, I find these particular comments of yours too funny to debate!
Do a 0-100 in the Etios by shifting at 4000 rpm and repeat the same in the DZire by shifting at redline and you will know who the winner is.
And who says redlining is not possible or improbable in our driving conditions? It depends on the driving style - I redline my car almost everyday!

One question - what is the source of your power and torque curve for Etios and DZire? Kindly point me to the same. Thanks.

Hi adi, I was searching for your etios test drive report but could not find it mate, could you please help me find it? Link should suffice!!