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Old 14th November 2018, 01:01   #766
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Default Re: Busting The Engine Break In Myth by Ari Henning from Motorcyclist Magazine

He is essentially saying what I have been saying all along. These days on most engines, be it bikes or cars, it just doesn’t really matter. It is a thing from the past.

What is relevant, and he mentions this too, there are other components on your bike/car that do need to bed down a bit too. Think tyres and brakes. So it doesn’t hurt to take it a bit easy the first couple of hundreds of km.

But when in doubt, go with the owner manual! You can never go wrong with that. Bit boring admittedly, because you actually have to sit down and read the manual.

We have a thread on reading the owner manual on the forum somewhere. If I recall correctly nobody, especially petrol heads appear to be reading owner manuals. They prefer the internet with anonymous guys claiming to have a preferred approach, “that works for them”. Well, beats me. I am one of those nerds that read manuals and I tend to stick to them.

Obviously, and he admits to this, this is just a very limited test on two middle of the road type of engines. It could be different especially when your bike/car is a high performance type.

Just to put it in context; all those claiming that whatever method they were using and it worked for them; most likely you could have used any method and it would have worked for you. You just don’t know and you can’t validate your own results because you have no reference or more importantly measurements.

You rev or you don’t rev, or you rev in first gear or in fifth gear, there is no science to all this nonsense. And unless you tear your engine apart and check it with an identical engine there is simply no way you can draw any conclusion.

The other thing is, engine wear, be it during break in or normal use is a very gradual proces. If you break in your bike/car carefully. change the oil at every street corner with the most expensive stuff money can buy and it makes you feel good, Great!

But if you sell your bike/car after 5-6 years of say 100.000km you will never ever reap the benefits of all that tender loving care. Guys like me do, because I never buy anything with less than 100.000km on the clock. So I love all those guys that believe the owner manual is wrong with a 10.000 km oil change interval. They prefer to believe some guy on the internet that does it every 1.000 km, pours in the most expensive stuff and then claims “it works for him”.

All that TLC has less than marginal effect for the first couple of years/100.000km. It’s a minute cumulative effect we are talking about here with most modern engines. So the effect if any can only be measured, more importantly, appreciated on older bikes/cars.

Jeroen
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Old 14th November 2018, 10:07   #767
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Default Re: Busting The Engine Break In Myth by Ari Henning from Motorcyclist Magazine

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
If I recall correctly nobody, especially petrol heads appear to be reading owner manuals. They prefer the internet with anonymous guys claiming to have a preferred approach, “that works for them”. Well, beats me. I am one of those nerds that read manuals and I tend to stick to them.
No one reads the manual! I know, because I write technical documentation for a living! (for software, not automobiles)

The only people who read a manual cover-to-cover are what we call the 'power users'. I guess the analogy in the auto world would be people who hang on to their vehicles, who like getting their hands dirty and doing minor fixes and enhancements by themselves.

For the rest, the trend in our profession is to identify the most commonly required information, break down that information into 5-minute chunks (the average attention span of your average reader/video consumer these days) and pray they can find that info easily through your 'official' channel as opposed to some random source on the Internet.

As far as software goes, it is quite possible that some hacker/programmer/customer somewhere could know more than a lot of the people at the office. I've seen that happen. But in the case of an automobile, I'd trust the manufacturer recommendations over anyone else's opinion any day!

Last edited by am1m : 14th November 2018 at 10:09.
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Old 14th November 2018, 11:34   #768
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Default Re: Busting The Engine Break In Myth by Ari Henning from Motorcyclist Magazine

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No one reads the manual! I know, because I write technical documentation for a living! (for software, not automobiles)
Must be very discouraging for you!

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Originally Posted by am1m View Post
As far as software goes, it is quite possible that some hacker/programmer/customer somewhere could know more than a lot of the people at the office. I've seen that happen.
Absolutely. To stick to cars, I know guys who over the years built up phenomenal insights on car electronics. They are, to your point, the ones that not just read the manual, they know it inside out. And they expand their knowledge by pouring endlessly over diagrams, measuring, trying things out. They build an insight that no regular dealer/factory mechanic or engineer would have had.

However, when it comes to lubrication oil and breaking in of engines, so claimed experience tends to be next to completely useless. Because there is simply no way to validate the claims they are making. Use oil xyz, because it is better than oil abc? Really, based on what? In order to make any credible judgement you would need to do extensive testing under very tightly controlled conditions, rip the engine apart and measure everything minutely and come to some very careful conditions.

All oil guru’s display their complete lack of understanding on the internet every single day. The don’t have any real data, other than “it works for me”, the engine seems to rev better etc. Also, they rarely if ever mention the fact that a good filter and regular filter changes are likely to be even more important then using the correct oil. They just babble on

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Originally Posted by am1m View Post
The only people who read a manual cover-to-cover are what we call the 'power users'. I guess the analogy in the auto world would be people who hang on to their vehicles, who like getting their hands dirty and doing minor fixes and enhancements by themselves
And then there are those of us, who like to try any job under the sun themselves.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/diy-d...eo-spider.html (My Car Hobby: A lot of fiddling, and some driving too! Jaguar XJR, Mercedes W123 & Alfa Romeo Spider)

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But in the case of an automobile, I'd trust the manufacturer recommendations over anyone else's opinion any day!
Amen to that. And thank you for providing the manuals to us nerdy types.
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Old 14th November 2018, 19:53   #769
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Default Re: ARTICLE: How to Run-In your new car

Instruction manual is the way to go, no doubt about it.

But in the case of Indian motorcycles, the instruction manual is not as reliable as one might expect it to be, hence doesn't hurt to apply a bit of commonsense as well.

The above is not just a random claim on my most recent motorcycle the oil capacity on replacement was incorrectly given and the same was confirmed by the manufacturers toll-free helpline when I took the initiative to call them up.

As for the rest, information is provided taking into account that any Tom, Dick and Harry should be able to operate the machine with the help of the instruction manual irrespective of their knowledge of how things within the crankcase operate, which makes sense.

But having witnessed brand new motors being taken apart at the SVC due to component failure, I personally make it a point to be CERTAIN that the machine I'm riding would not give up on me mid way as say if I'm a good 500 km's away from my home then the expense that I'd have to incur to bring the motorcycle home would be a lot more than what it would cost for a complete overhaul.

Which is why after the first couple of km's mostly around the 50~150 km's mark I change the factory oil to the oil of my choice, this is not because of my preference of going for one oil over another(though I have to say 20W50 holds better at least visually compared to the recommended 10W30 when the intended use is almost up to 17~20 hours daily operation, at least on my CT100B!) or because I fear run-in contamination(not entirely at least!) but because I'd prefer to inspect the oil for anything unusual, say metal shards/bearings etc. which is not something unusual considering mass produced Indian motorcycles.

Next thing would be the running for around the 500 km's mark which is the time that would take for me to get used to the motorcycle and for other components to bed in.

Finally before the 500 km's oil change I red-line the motorcycle all the way from 1st till final drive and engine brake just as hard to make sure nothing breaks or falls apart under 100% load, on draining the oil I would keep an eye out for metal just as before.

Once I'm done I'll be at peace because I know that I have done everything in my power to ensure that the motorcycle is fit for touring on the highways because if anything were to break or give up then it would most likely happen while I was breaking it in.

And if by chance something does break then I'm well within the warranty timeline(the first 500 km's I usually cover within 2~3 days of ownership, sooner if I've committed to be someplace) to get the part covered under warranty, which is not something I look out for as my motorcycles seldom visit the SVC, the CT100B for example has never been to the SVC(Neither Authorized nor FNG) since purchase and it has covered 25k+ km's on the odo and have been ridden around the country, in effect my warranty becomes void by default.

This is strictly what I do and would not recommend anyone else follow the same, just sharing my experience as I ride interstate on small displacement motorcycles and I prefer for things to break down while I'm within the confines of my state borders where everyone at least speaks the same language, nothing racial, just because I have a better chance of not being at a disadvantage.

Again emphasizing that everyone go through their instructions manual and directly reach out to manufacturer in the event that something strikes them as odd because mass(Not mass as in CBR 250R but MASS as in Splendor!) production instruction manuals if not motorcycles do have a long way to go in India at least from what I've experienced.

Cheers,
A.P.

Last edited by ashwinprakas : 14th November 2018 at 19:59.
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Old 14th November 2018, 21:10   #770
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Default Re: ARTICLE: How to Run-In your new car

Modern engines (ie both design and manufacturing) do not need 'running in' the way we used to. Use it normally, initially don't do performance testing.

But I follow the rule of being gentle for the first tankful. Not really for the engine but to be more aware of anything unusual, esp noises, in a new vehicle. An engine revving away might mask other noises.

I feel the reason why so much is said here (in India) about running in, esp in bikes, is because of RE/ Bullets. No paragon of reliability/ life, the standard excuse of the company was 'you did not run it in properly'.

Regards
Sutripta

@AP:- Any idea how ring gaps are measured to that precision?

Last edited by Sutripta : 14th November 2018 at 21:18.
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Old 14th November 2018, 23:57   #771
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Default Re: ARTICLE: How to Run-In your new car

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
@AP:- Any idea how ring gaps are measured to that precision?
My best guess is Ari uses a Digital Vernier Micrometer, I believe to have seen him measure clearances using the same on his other rebuild videos.
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Old 15th November 2018, 20:23   #772
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Default Re: ARTICLE: How to Run-In your new car

^^^
What exactly is a 'digital vernier micrometer'? And how will you use it to measure ring gap?

So what is your stand on 'running in'?

Regards
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Old 15th November 2018, 23:55   #773
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Default Re: ARTICLE: How to Run-In your new car

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^^^
What exactly is a 'digital vernier micrometer'? And how will you use it to measure ring gap?
This is the tool in question;

Name:  51tCN6ZTgvL._SX522_.jpg
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As a kid I'd seen my uncle use an analogue micrometer and I've also seen a fellow enthusiast use one to measure thickness of his front rotor, other than that I have no experience with the same.

On Amazon I see digital micrometers costing anywhere from 700 to 10,000/-, doubt I'd any day consider getting one as blindly changing the cylinder kit on my CT100B would cost me around 1000~2000/- all consumables included, including a valve-job.

Quote:
So what is your stand on 'running in'?
I still stick with 2 oil changes within the first 500 km's(First change around 50~150 km's) and redlining and engine braking hard before the second oil change at 500 km's.

Though I lack the technical knowledge and resources to prove my point, from what I've experienced and known from enthusiasts who build engines as a hobby, for the rings to form the best possible seal you need to red-line and engine brake hard.

To share an experience, my co-rider on the Golden Quadrilateral run(Me on the CT100B and him on the Bullet 500) recently sold his Royal Enfield Bullet 500 and got a Bajaj CT100 Kick Start(Same motor as mine) due to higher running costs and reliability issues that plagued his Bullet, plus after the ride I seem to have invariably sold him on the idea that the CT100B is more of a motorcycle than his Bullet 500.

His motorcycle was run in as per the book and mine was run in as I'd mentioned earlier.

End result is, him being lighter than me and being a more sedate rider than me, his motor returns a FE of almost 60 Kmpl while riding economically, whereas mine carrying a 120 kg's me and my luggage doing speedo indicated speeds of 115~120 Kmph with the throttle pinned at WOT returned 67.5 Kmpl factoring 8982.74/- spent on fuel for the 7600+ km's done with average fuel priced estimated to be Rs.80/-(Which is on the higher side) at the time of riding.

Edit: He runs 10W30, I run 20W50, adding just to make sure that I've included all the variables involved.

And since FE is one of the best thumb-rule indicators of performance and efficiency I'd let it speak for itself.

Again repeating that I do not advice anyone to follow my method as the manufacturer knows what's best. Plus I'm merely sharing my experience.

Cheers,
A.P.

Last edited by ashwinprakas : 16th November 2018 at 00:00.
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Old 16th November 2018, 20:29   #774
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Default Re: ARTICLE: How to Run-In your new car

^^^
That is a caliper with a digital readout - a digital caliper. Absolutely nothing 'micrometer' about it.
And a digital readout and vernier are normally mutually exclusive.

And it would be interesting to see someone measuring ring gap with either this, or a micrometer!

There is a lot to discuss on engine life and wear (and running in is only a small part of it). But I don't think people are really interested. On a modern machine, just drive normally, and you are good to go. (Maybe Jim and others can weigh in).

A racing engine needs to last just 1m (or whatever the racing body rules are) beyond race distance. Entirely different meanings of life and reliability for normal use and racing use.

Using a Bullet as a control/ counterexample makes absolutely no sense. As I said before

Quote:
I feel the reason why so much is said here (in India) about running in, esp in bikes, is because of RE/ Bullets. No paragon of reliability/ life, the standard excuse of the company was 'you did not run it in properly'.
In a control experiment, ideally only a single variable (the variable of interest) is changed. Decaying oranges can't be the control for fresh apples.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 16th November 2018, 21:55   #775
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Default Re: ARTICLE: How to Run-In your new car

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
^^^
That is a caliper with a digital readout - a digital caliper. Absolutely nothing 'micrometer' about it.
And a digital readout and vernier are normally mutually exclusive.

And it would be interesting to see someone measuring ring gap with either this, or a micrometer!
Got to view the video from a PC and on pausing the video it shows Ari using a feeler blade to estimate ring clearance;

ARTICLE: How to Run-In your new car-precision.jpg

Quote:
There is a lot to discuss on engine life and wear (and running in is only a small part of it). But I don't think people are really interested. On a modern machine, just drive normally, and you are good to go. (Maybe Jim and others can weigh in).
Different people, different priorities.

Some have shiny motorcycles than run like crap whereas others have motorcycles that run like clockwork but look like crap.

At the end of it all we go with what puts our minds at ease.
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Old 17th November 2018, 21:42   #776
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Default Re: ARTICLE: How to Run-In your new car

^^^
Do use feelers yourself (say adjusting tappets), and if possible do a blind test. With feelers +- 1thou. And form your own opinion on the accuracy/ tolerance limits one can get with feelers. (Trawling the net you will come across slip gauges/ Johansson blocks which are used where extremely accuracy (shop floor level) is needed. These are not the same as feeler gauges).

Quote:
At the end of it all we go with what puts our minds at ease.
True. And the desire to tell the world ones opinion is I guess human nature.

But (and this is a piece of unsolicited avuncular advice. Give it some thought before rejecting it and reacting aggressively to it)
You seem to be young (I might be wrong, but I would say first job out of college). You have your whole life ahead of you. You don't have to be in the tearing hurry you are exhibiting.
And if you really want to get your point across, stay off the clickbait thread titles, and presenting personal opinions as Gods own truth.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 17th November 2018, 23:59   #777
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Default

Be aware, just because something has a digital read out doesn't necessarily make it a high precision instrument. Depends on the accuracy and resolution. In many cases an analogue scale is more than good enough.

An interesting article that explain some:

https://www.qualitymag.com/articles/...ools-of-choice
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Old 4th April 2019, 13:12   #778
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Default Re: ARTICLE: How to Run-In your new car

Bumping Old thread,
It is quite surprising that many have told here not to use Synthetic oil during Run-in. However I think Tata nexon comes with synthetic oil. When I see owner's manual, all the oil mentioned are synthetic
Castrol Magnatec T 5W30
Exxon Mobil, Mobil super 3000 TMGO 5W30, Tata motors genuine oil
Petronas, Tata motors genuine oil Synthetic 5W30
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Old 14th August 2019, 15:35   #779
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Default Re: ARTICLE: How to Run-In your new car

Tried looking for an answer on run in for automatic cars on this thread, but couldn't find anything concrete.

How are you supposed to run-in an automatic or an AMT?

Drive in Manual mode or no engine run-in required?

With more and more people buying the auto boxes and AMT, the original post should be updated to include this information.
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Old 14th August 2019, 16:54   #780
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Default Re: ARTICLE: How to Run-In your new car

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Originally Posted by rahul_goyal View Post
How are you supposed to run-in an automatic or an AMT?

Drive in Manual mode or no engine run-in required?
My EcoSport has a torque converter automatic transmission without any manual mode or shifters. I just drove gently and sedately with a light foot in the city. No urgent push on the A pedal. On the highways, I kept the speed varying to some degrees and could see the RPM varying as well. Just take it easy for the first 1-1.5k kms, other than that I don't believe in being too finicky with the whole running-in process.
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