[Thamps]

I had posted here about how UPS was quoting 40k duty for a 12k boots.
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ride-...ml#post5923417 (The Riding Gear thread)

After a lot of mail exchanges between FC Moto and UPS, FC Moto has agreed to refund the amount after deduction of all handling charges once the shipment reaches back to them.
Also, UPS has shared the govt notification which was released in 2019 stating all products with country of origin/shipped from Pakistan will attract a duty of 200%. Unfortunately most of the RST products are from Pakistan and I unknowingly ordered one.

FC MOTO has stated that they have asked UPS to ship them the product back .This was 10 days back .The shipment is still showing that its with UPS in their warehouse. Will update about the final outcome once its sorted

Since my order was stuck with all this and I was in need of a boot pretty soon due to my TCX Speed boots damaged beyond repair from age, I again scoured the internet and saw some good deals from some international sites like Motardinn and Motocard etc, but I was skeptical about ordering from abroad after my recent ordeal. All the Indian websites had either too big a size or didn't have anything with lateral and torsional protection, except Forma Ice Pro which retails around 20 k in international sites and around 33-35 k here. There was also a TBG boots which retails for around 15k.

Ice pro has good review in track circles but I have not worn one till date and was unsure about sizing. TBG and other ones like Axor didnt fetch any solid user reviews too. Since i need a boot soon and my FC moto order didnt pan out as planned, i was about to buy the Forma Ice Pro.

A random search through all bookmarked Indian sites just before ordering those landed me in Planet Dsg website where AStars Supertech R is retailing at a whopping 56% discount.(35k INR). Since I had an Alpinestars SMX 1R and their Faster 3 model, I was pretty sure about AStars sizing. Most of the reviews said the boots fit true to size and I am a size 41 in faster 3 and had SMX 1r at 42 which was a tad loose.
Planet dsg didn't have 41 and I figured that since my usage would also include track riding where the racesuit goes under the boots, I ordered one in size 42. As expected, the boots are a tad loose, but it is not a deal breaker.

The boots are comfortable but a bit heavy and a lot more hotter when compared to my previous TCX Speed ones, which served me through a couple of crashes.(maybe because of the inner boots)

The import date is shown as Dec 2021 , and from a quick research online and comparing the different models year wise, my guess is that it might be manufactured anywhere between 2018-2020. (I cannot find the date of manufacture on the package or boots. So ya it's old stock.)

Anyways, considering all this, I think 35K is a fair price since sites like FC moto has the newer version of the same boot retailing for 35k without adding shipping or taxes. Will see how the boots hold up in future.

[hikozaru]

Originally Posted by Thamps

Also, UPS has shared the govt notification which was released in 2019 stating all products with country of origin/shipped from Pakistan will attract a duty of 200%. Unfortunately most of the RST products are from Pakistan and I unknowingly ordered one.

Can you share this notification? Are there any other countries on similar lists like China?

[Thamps]

Originally Posted by hikozaru

Can you share this notification? Are there any other countries on similar lists like China?

Sure. Unfortunately as far as I know, no idea on how to find such restrictions or duties imposed on different nations by India

[doomketu]

Hey there folks. Has anyone used the Clan stealth sneakers with the D3O ? I was thinking of getting a pair but also was suggested a pair of solace. Currently the Royal Enfield platoon boots are my daily drivers and wanted something for the odd midnight weekend sprints.

[neochanger]

Hello guys, I hope you are doing well.

I am planning to get myself a budget riding jacket and riding pants. This is going to be my only jacket and pants pair for a long time and therefore I am willing to do as much research as possible before spending money. Detailed information and technical knowhow about specific jackets will also decide my budget as I would be willing to spend a bit extra in first go than buying low and upgrading sooner. I have done some research on my own and got inputs from various sources about what should constitute a good riding jacket.

Basically, here's what I have compiled so far:

Considering my use case and weather conditions of Northern plains, the first thing is that the riding jacket should be made of mesh in good amount, and be full of ventilation. For occasional harsh winter or rainy season, separate liners should be used.

Next, your riding jacket should be light enough without compromising on safety meaning that it should have Level-2 protectors everywhere yet light enough to be convenient. For instance, Viaterra claims that its Spencer jacket is lightest in the segment. I don't know about the weight of other riding jackets in this budget (10-15k) or even at some higher price point. I think it’s a good idea if Youtube reviewers use a hanging weigh scale to compare lightness of different jackets for good comparison.

Next, the outer material should be made of good quality abrasion resistant material and it should also include some basic sliders at various points. Now, many of the jackets use this thing called Cordura, with grading like 600D or 1000D etc. Again, not every jacket out there tells you in detail about what kind of material is used and of which grade to really make a good comparison. Many brands simply say abrasion resistant while some flaunt 700D as regular and 1000D on possible contact points such as elbows and shoulders. I don’t know if bigger brands make their own proprietary abrasion resistant textile and if they are better or worse than Cordura 1000D. Only experts of this domain can have a good guess on it. Checking about sliders is easier part, if the jacket has it, good enough.

Next is the protector: before discussing their safety ratings, a small thing about their placement and precise fit. Rynox claims they have some feature which allows adjustments according to the need. Viaterra offers custom fit kind of thing. Others simply boast their precision in making it fit for all and sundry. Good fit and comfort are important. How to know if they are actually good fit or not? Only trying out can tell, that too after wearing it and riding the motorcycle with it for some time. This is not possible usually and inherently not possible if you wish to buy it online. So this becomes a great confusion point.

Now, the protectors: we all know that we should go for CE Level-2 protectors everywhere in our riding gear. But there are other minor details in certification such as if it is temperature-tested or not (T+/T-). Also, there are many brands such as D3O, Knox, Sas-tech, Cerros-G and so on. Now which of these is better (=lightweight and long lasting along with ticking all the certification boxes) than the others. For instance, I shortlisted Rynox Stealth Air Pro jacket which seems nice otherwise but uses Cerros-G brand for protectors which is not a widely used brand (I think it’s in-house to Rynox). Will they be light and flexible than, say, D3O or Sas-tech? I don’t know. Is there a well made comparison of these brands? I don’t know. If there is, please let me know. Also, there is budget at play here so we need a comparison test between similarly priced (or with reasonable price difference) protectors.

Next and perhaps the biggest point of confusion: in the price range of 10-15k or even upto 20k there are plenty of brands and jackets to choose from, for example, Rynox, Viaterra, Solace, DSG, Tarmac and so on. The problem multiplies if you are also willing to check out international brands, for instance, I saw some good looking Alpinestars and Dainese touring jackets on sale on FC-Moto under 13k meaning that you can get it around 20-25k including shipping and customs. Is it wise to go for these brands by spending some extra in the first go? Or is it just FOMO playing out? Indians brands have done quite well on quality front and left many users extremely satisfied. On the other hand, there are people who would tell you that desi brands can’t match the quality and craftsmanship of a reputed international counterpart. My own belief is that Indian brands are good enough for me and I should stay away from all this importing hassle. But how to know if I am right.


Next, I understand that apart from CE ratings of protectors there is also a CE rating for overall jacket or pant which goes from AAA (best) to A(better) and so on. Please correct me if I am wrong here but many of jackets in the price bracket of 10-15k are rated A and not AAA. Also, not all brands tell you in detail about this rating on their website neither the usual Youtube reviewers even make any small mention of it. So, to do a good comparison test, you are left clueless on this aspect as well.

Keeping in mind all the above confusion and comparison aspects, here are some of my shortlisted jacket and pants. (I am planning to buy jacket and pants of same brand and type to make it a suit so that the combo makes a good fit and remains aesthetically pleasing)

1. Rynox stealth air pro jacket and pants

2. Viaterra Spencer jacket and pants

3. Solace Sabre Pro V5 with CoolPro V3 mesh pants

Now, I am really confused which one I should go for.

There are other brands too like DSG, Tarmac, LS2 etc. Which one specific I must check out before making any decision, please tell me. Should I muster the courage and keep on exploring import options too from sites like FC Moto?

One may say why at all I am bothered so much about all these details and any jacket with Level-2 protectors that I think can do the job will do the job. If that is the case, please suggest me so.

The reason I wrote this long post about my pretty low budget needs is that many aspiring but curious riders, who are willing to spend money on good gears but are afraid that they may end up buying something they will soon regret, are actually way more confused on all this and while getting some answers are easy it is definitely not easy to make a decent comparison between various jackets made by different manufacturers, Indian and foreign. This riding gear thread is now running into more than 300 pages with posts on gears I don’t even know about and scorching the thread for all your silly confusions can be even more confusing at times. So this post may serve as somewhat starting point for beginners like me who are searching for answers.

I must say that this post on CE ratings is quite helpful to get started and is a must read but after reading this, your confusion about comparing gears might get more interesting.

[Senotrius]

@neochanger, go for Viaterra. Plenty of mesh and customer support is fine. They'll contact you before finalising the size and shipping. It has Sastec armour, which is the only one that can be reused after a crash, according to the manufacturer. Rynox has cerros armour, of which I'm not so sure. The support offered by Rynox, for me, is the best of all brands. The Solace has very good specs, Sastec armour i believe, but build quality not so much and poor customer care- I have their top adv model. Velcro is ok-ish in solace; metal parts are rusting. On paper, Solace is the best. You can get the Solace if you're in Bangalore or have a very good dealer who'll take care of service/warranty. Viaterra, otherwise is suggested. If you're looking at brands like Revit, I suggest you go for their middle to top models for quality. Avoid their entry level models. Also, everything generally is an add on for foreign brands- back armour, chest armour, higher coverage level 2 armour etc, irrespective of price point. Currently, only Knox has a AAA, L2 armoured shirt/ mesh jacket in India; available at lazy ass bikers. May not be the latest year model though. I want to get that product but am terrified regarding support and returns.

[theredliner]

Originally Posted by Thamps

Also, UPS has shared the govt notification which was released in 2019 stating all products with country of origin/shipped from Pakistan will attract a duty of 200%. Unfortunately most of the RST products are from Pakistan and I unknowingly ordered one.

I had learnt this the hard way a few years back when I had to pay 8k duty on a 4k item as it was made in Pakistan.

Ever since then I am cautious when ordering from European gear sites.
I try to look for images of used pieces of the same item on sites which list second hand stuff. There will generally be multiple images including tag with country of manufacture. I usually get instant answers doing this.
If I don't get an answer using the above and/or I am ordering an expensive item, I make sure to email the customer service and ask them the country of manufacture.

I recently bought a 30k+ item from FC-Moto. I mailed them asking the country of manufacture. I placed the order only after they confirmed that it was not PK as the duty would have been 60k+ otherwise instead of 12-15k.

Originally Posted by hikozaru

Can you share this notification? Are there any other countries on similar lists like China?

I'm 99.9% sure that this is only for Pakistan. China is charged at the usual 42.08% rate.

[hikozaru]

Just chipping in on some technical bits.

Originally Posted by neochanger

Now, the protectors: we all know that we should go for CE Level-2 protectors everywhere in our riding gear. But there are other minor details in certification such as if it is temperature-tested or not (T+/T-)

Protection degrades enough that a L2 pad has only L1 levels of protection over 40c unless it is explicitly T+ rated. D3O has some data charts where they show this. It is also not a deal breaker. You should also consider whether they use flex armour or composite armour. Most indian brands use normal, composite armour and it is better. Flex armour does not sit as well, especially on more complex joints like shoulders,

Originally Posted by neochanger

Next, I understand that apart from CE ratings of protectors there is also a CE rating for overall jacket or pant which goes from AAA (best) to A(better) and so on. Please correct me if I am wrong here but many of jackets in the price bracket of 10-15k are rated A and not AAA. Also, not all brands tell you in detail about this rating on their website neither the usual Youtube reviewers even make any small mention of it. So, to do a good comparison test, you are left clueless on this aspect as well

While CE ratings are a good guidelines, European brands have made a mockery of it. Comparing the meshy-textile Knox Honnister rated at AAA with a Dainese Super speed leather jacket rated at AA should tell you that these standards are not only not worth the ink they are written on, but also that European brands themselves don't care about it. Marketing certain Rev'it gloves as motorcycling gloves should take you at least to the first circle of hell when you die.

Originally Posted by Senotrius

It has Sastec armour, which is the only one that can be reused after a crash, according to the manufacturer. Rynox has cerros armour, of which I'm not so sure.

I really would not reuse armour after it gets abraded. And that is exactly what would happen when you put them in mesh+textile gear, like the ones we are talking about, so this should not be considered a selling point. They mean that the armour is reusable if it is inside leather.

Personally, I'd buy twice, cry twice. Both preferably offline and don't hesitate to buy used for the first set. The first set of gear should tell you what you actually need.

[Senotrius]

Originally Posted by hikozaru

,



While CE ratings are a good guidelines, European brands have made a mockery of it. Comparing the meshy-textile Knox Honnister rated at AAA with a Dainese Super speed leather jacket rated at AA should tell you that these standards are not only not worth the ink they are written on, but also that European brands themselves don't care about it. Marketing certain Rev'it gloves as motorcycling gloves should take you at least to the first circle of hell when you die.



I really would not reuse armour after it gets abraded. And that is exactly what would happen when you put them in mesh+textile gear, like the ones we are talking about, so this should not be considered a selling point. They mean that the armour is reusable if it is inside leather.

Personally, I'd buy twice, cry twice. Both preferably offline and don't hesitate to buy used for the first set. The first set of gear should tell you what you actually need.

Yes, better not to reuse after a crash even if it's not abraded. I didn't myself. Regarding Sastec reusability; It's more like the 10 year warranty that Honda gives- increases confidence regarding the product quality. Doesn't mean one should reuse. I think Sastec is a well regarded brand.

And I'm in a bit of confusion regarding the AA/AAA rating systems now. Earlier I thought it's inferior to the CE system. But, the Rynox Tornado pro jacket is only A rated despite having significant portions of abrasion resistant textile, level 2 armour and what not. Maybe they didn't want to pay for AA rating certification. One fix for that would be to atleast state, in no uncertain terms, that their product have values that can easily surpass AA certification numbers. Viaterra does this for their Grid 2 gloves wrt CE levels. Anyways, it's understood that leather>textile>mesh for abrasion. All the points discussed above are valid.

[scarn]

Originally Posted by hikozaru

While CE ratings are a good guidelines, European brands have made a mockery of it. Comparing the meshy-textile Knox Honnister rated at AAA with a Dainese Super speed leather jacket rated at AA should tell you that these standards are not only not worth the ink they are written on, but also that European brands themselves don't care about it. Marketing certain Rev'it gloves as motorcycling gloves should take you at least to the first circle of hell when you die.

I think Knox was able to pass because it doesn't use the open-weave mesh found in cheaper jackets. Instead, they used a densely woven mesh with high-strength yarns (got this from their website).

A/AA/AAA ratings are primarily determined through abrasion tests, where jackets are thrown onto fast-moving abrasive belts—120 km/h for AAA. However, this mostly affects high-impact zones, where Knox used the best materials, allowing it to pass the test.

The jacket is also tested for seam strength, where the seams are pulled apart with high force to check stitch durability. Finally, the armor is tested, and since the Honister includes CE Level 2 armor, that might have contributed to its AAA rating.

Even the Klim Badlands, despite being a textile jacket, is AAA-rated because of the high-quality materials used.

That said, I do agree that the tests don’t indicate whether it barely passed or passed with flying colors.

[neochanger]

Originally Posted by hikozaru

Personally, I'd buy twice, cry twice.

That seems to be the answer to all my confusion. Thanks a lot.

[neochanger]

Originally Posted by Senotrius

It has Sastec armour, which is the only one that can be reused after a crash, according to the manufacturer. Rynox has cerros armour, of which I'm not so sure.

...

Currently, only Knox has a AAA, L2 armoured shirt/ mesh jacket in India; available at lazy ass bikers. May not be the latest year model though. I want to get that product but am terrified regarding support and returns.

I checked out these protectors used by Viaterr, their top-of-the-line Spencer jacket. It uses Sas-Tec SC-1/81 which is described on Sas-tec website as follows:

Protection level: 2 (mean value below 20 kN)
Protection area: S Type B, E/K Type A
Symmetrical

• Protectors surpass the required values of EN 1621-1:2012 by approx. 25 per cent
• Protectors are not destroyed by an impact and can still be used

There's no word on T+/T- testing which means they are not temperature tested. In that case, won't the Cerros-G protectors used by Rynox be better off as it claims:

• Shoulder and Elbow: Cerros CE Level 2 protectors with asymmetric design, certified to standard EN 1621-1:2012 (T+/T-)
• Back: Cerros CE Level 2 protector, certified to standard EN 1621-1:2014
• Chest: Cerros CE Level 2 protectors, with asymmetric design, certified to standard EN1621-3:2018

It appears that while Viaterra's protectors are not temperature tested at all, Rynox at least uses T+/T- certified protectors on shoulders and elbow. Considering that Rynox's Stealth Air Pro is about 3k cheaper than Spencer but Spencer is claiming to be 800 grams lighter than nearest L2 armour based jacket. 800 grams is quite a weight, I guess. It's frustrating that brands try to hide their weak points and boast tall claims.

[skviknaraj]

Originally Posted by neochanger

.........

There's no word on T+/T- testing which means they are not temperature tested. .........

Visit a store and try out the gears and then get one. While you are trying out, check the armour also. You will know for sure whether they are rated for T+/T-.

Or you could email viaterra and ask them to confirm the same.

Brownie points for visiting the store as you can get the sizing right the first time.

Looking at the Cerros protectors: are they Type A or Type B? Type B has more coverage area compared to Type A.

[hikozaru]

Originally Posted by neochanger

It appears that while Viaterra's protectors are not temperature tested at all, Rynox at least uses T+/T- certified protectors on shoulders and elbow. Considering that Rynox's Stealth Air Pro is about 3k cheaper than Spencer but Spencer is claiming to be 800 grams lighter than nearest L2 armour based jacket. 800 grams is quite a weight, I guess. It's frustrating that brands try to hide their weak points and boast tall claims.

This is purely an academic exercise. Feel free to do it for the lols as I did but this should not be the deciding factor.


This is probably the armour that Michael Dunlop wears for IOMTT. If it is good enough for Michael Dunlop, something something...


This is composite armour that you get in Bikeratti jeans and is comparable to the ones in Viaterra spencer and probably also the Cerros one in the Rynox jacket


This is the same armour used in Rynox's downtown pro jeans

The main takeaways from this exercise are

1. Impact absorption values decrease for all amour at T+ compared ambient
2. Following the pattern, Ghost L2 is probably the only L2 armour that degrades just enough to miss L2 by a small margin (another reason why I avoid flex armour for jackets, and this is coming from a person running L1 knox flex armour for my hips)
3. This is why I don't recommend foreign brands selling even their leather sports jackets with L1 armour (like a Dainese super speed 4, assuming it has the Dainese variant of the D3O racing LP2 Pro), because they will probably slip into something like L0.5 in our temperatures

Now, here is why all of this is academic. The bar for L2 is 20KN and our bones break at 4KN. Even the best armour cannot save you, so instead just take any L2 pad within your budget, pick the one that has most coverage, is most comfortable and does not restrict your range of motion. 800g lighter means 800mL more water in your water bladder which keeps you less fatigued. It is 800g less stressing your back on the highway to sciatica. That 800g difference in the Viaterra jacket might give you just enough freedom of movement to steer your bike away from an accident, which we can all agree is infinitely better than 1.3KN more impact absorption. We are talking about a hobby where Yamaha went with a slower crossplane engine for their motogp bike, because the laptimes were faster on it.

And we have not even got into the fit aspect of the armour. People on this forum have complained about armour in their Rynox gear not fitting them correctly (including for me). Reason? Viaterra does a XS size, Rynox does not. My Rynox Air GT 4 jacket can very quickly irritate my tender left elbow if I ride wrong. Spencer jacket has a stretch panel at the elbows to relieve some tension, which can accommodate some more versatile riding style. The D3O shoulder armour in my leathers will insta kill me if I ride an ADV bike the wrong way. At the end of the day, we all have difference preference and tolerance to comfort : protection, and that is why I recommend trying out different gear just like renting bikes to figure out what your ratio is.

Originally Posted by neochanger

It's frustrating that brands try to hide their weak points and boast tall claims.

If anything, we should commend both the brands for being so candid about what model of armour they use. Neither brands are hiding anything as far armours are concerned

[Senotrius]

Adding a point- go for a jacket/pant that have straps to adjust the fit on elbow/knee. If possible, straps above and below the joint. The armour should be hugging. Similar to how a glove should fit one's hand. Many riding gears do skimp on this. Buttons on said elbow/knee won't do for me. Of course, this is unless the jacket/pants fits a rider perfectly even otherwise.