[Lalvaz]

We keep hearing about this, right from 2014, https://www.carandbike.com/news/new-...andards-714748
but have yet to see it getting implemented.

So pardon my cynicism but will wait until it becomes reality.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by theAutomaniac

On one hand are Maruti's product development and marketing teams trying to make people believe that newer Maruti cars are safe and on the other hand is this guy blabbering whatever comes to his outdated mind!

Seriously Maruti, stop sending this guy to interviews, public events or press conferences for your own good!

https://www.businesstoday.in/mindrus...064-2022-06-24

Seriously, even before the ink has dried on the notification, comes the first opposition. And what demographic is is he talking about? Does he have the stereotypical notion that the poor people wearing rags in villages look at an Alto as if its a chariot sent from heaven ? I was on my way to my office the other day. I passed by the Chande-Nande road and I have seen how these "villages" have changed over the years. There was some function in a bungalow, and the entire village road was lined up with cars. I did not see a single Alto/Wagon R, mostly Fortuners, Scorpios, the odd XUV7OO and lots of Swifts/Dezires/Seltoses. I am sure this story is the same in varying degrees across most parts of India, except remote tribal hamlets.

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

https://www.businesstoday.in/mindrus...064-2022-06-24

Seriously, even before the ink has dried on the notification, comes the first opposition. And what demographic is is he talking about? Does he have the stereotypical notion that the poor people wearing rags in villages look at an Alto as if its a chariot sent from heaven ? I was on my way to my office the other day. I passed by the Chande-Nande road and I have seen how these "villages" have changed over the years.
.

As long as people who commute on two wheelers exist, RC Bhargava's point is valid. The barrier to entry for car ownership should not increase because of this NCAP being mandatory. There is a demographic for whom Alto is an upgrade path. He is not wrong there. You won't see that crowd in TeamBHP, but that demographic exists. I am surprised that you have never seen someone who travels with whole family on a bike and is saving up to upgrade to a car. In my area, I look around and I see lots of them.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by padmrajravi

As long as people who commute on two wheelers exist, RC Bhargava's point is valid. The barrier to entry for car ownership should not increase because of this NCAP being mandatory. There is a demographic for whom Alto is an upgrade path. He is not wrong there. You won't see that crowd in TeamBHP, but that demographic exists. I am surprised that you have never seen someone who travels with whole family on a bike and is saving up to upgrade to a car. In my area, I look around and I see lots of them.

This is Tata Nano all over again. The Alto is hardly an aspirational product these days, frankly, it is seen more as an "interim" utility vehicle before someone makes the next upgrade. In any case, Altos are already fitted with 2 airbags. If they can make the requisite changes and fit 6 airbags, well and good. Otherwise they should retire this car and make the S-Presso the entry level model (assuming that one too can be fitted). Not counting the Eeco here. In fact I dont even see the Eeco on display in Maruti Arena dealerships.

[Bluengel180]

Originally Posted by padmrajravi

As long as people who commute on two wheelers exist, RC Bhargava's point is valid. The barrier to entry for car ownership should not increase because of this NCAP being mandatory. There is a demographic for whom Alto is an upgrade path. He is not wrong there. You won't see that crowd in TeamBHP, but that demographic exists. I am surprised that you have never seen someone who travels with whole family on a bike and is saving up to upgrade to a car. In my area, I look around and I see lots of them.

The safety ratings will definitely not ban any vehicle from being sold. It will just give a clearer picture on the structural integrity of the vehicle in question.

Just like air conditioners. Even though 5 star rated appliances exist people are free to buy 2 or 3 star rated devices based on thier budget.

Maruti can still sell Altos with a zero star rating. The people upgrading from a two wheeler will not care. The only reason Maruti wants to opt out of this is because it will highlight how less safer thier cars are in every other segment as compared to competition in the same price brackets.

[searacer932]

Every car that's getting released in the market should have a Bharat NCAP rating and this should be part of brochures, specs etc.

Consumers can then take a decision on what they want to do. Somebody might be okay to buy a 0 rated car and that's okay as long they know they are buying such a car!

[BleueNinja]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

I was on my way to my office the other day. I passed by the Chande-Nande road and I have seen how these "villages" have changed over the years. There was some function in a bungalow, and the entire village road was lined up with cars. I did not see a single Alto/Wagon R, mostly Fortuners, Scorpios, the odd XUV7OO and lots of Swifts/Dezires/Seltoses. I am sure this story is the same in varying degrees across most parts of India, except remote tribal hamlets.

I see where you are coming from but even in 2022 the ratio of people who can buy a car in India vs people who cannot is staggering in favour of people who can't. Pune, PCMC and other IT/Industrial cities have villages near by who have developed due to enormous hike in real estate prices and what not but there are many villages/towns where car is a luxury that many still dream of and Alto/wagonR are aspirational products. We here have the luxury to indulge in our passion for automobiles hence can sit and talk from a place of privilege but many see cars as a luxury which they won't be able to afford If it's beyond a certain budget.

I agree that we need strict laws, as a matter of fact for the same reason i eliminated Korean twins from my consideration list and decided to opt for a safer SUV.

As Ron and Rahul have pointed in their posts on initial pages of this thread NCAP implementation needs to be done post thorough analysis tailored to fit Indian requirements rather than ctr+c and ctr+v from Euro norms.

[amvj]

Hope this does not turn into an April 1 joke which I mean, hope they don't dilute the safety assessment by manufacturer pressure from the likes of Maruti (Bhargava in particular where he already made a comment on it)

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by BleueNinja

As Ron and Rahul have pointed in their posts on initial pages of this thread NCAP implementation needs to be done post thorough analysis tailored to fit Indian requirements rather than ctr+c and ctr+v from Euro norms.

Well then why are we criticizing MSIL, Hyundai et al for watering down the safety aspects ? They are doing exactly that- tailored to fit Indian requirements. Do we want global automotive majors with strong compliance to advanced market safety norms ? Then we consumers must pay up. For decades, India's consumers suffered outdated post WW2 designs. When things picked up in the nineties , they began to enjoy affordable mass market designs that endured to this day. So when the general demographic is having an even better income/living standard, should we not go to the next level ?

[lordrayden]

Great news to start off the week.

I hope its made mandatory and the lowest variant (safety equipment wise at least) of every car sold in India is tested. Bharat-NCAP should also have more tests like full frontal, side impact, side pole, etc unlike the sole front offset test done by GNCAP in the past (pre new protocols). Its also nice to see him talking about STRUCTURAL safety.

If needed, Govt of India can make some concessions to Mr R C Bhargava and tell him that the 6-airbag rule wont apply to very small cars, but said small cars MUST go through Bharat-NCAP .

[BleueNinja]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

Well then why are we criticizing MSIL, Hyundai et al for watering down the safety aspects ? They are doing exactly that- tailored to fit Indian requirements. Do we want global automotive majors with strong compliance to advanced market safety norms ? Then we consumers must pay up. For decades, India's consumers suffered outdated post WW2 designs. When things picked up in the nineties , they began to enjoy affordable mass market designs that endured to this day. So when the general demographic is having an even better income/living standard, should we not go to the next level ?

We definitely should go to next level. When i say "tailored to fit Indian requirements" i meant NCAP should do so by taking in consideration 2 wheeler safety or other parameters that had a role to play in accidents in India.

Maybe these strict norms and guidelines can be implemented from B2 segment cars rather than implying them directly from entry level cars as automobile manufacturers are notorious for passing down cost to consumer and heavily so.

We are criticising Hyundai and Kia because despite charging 15-22 lacs they are providing India with sub par products and that definitely needs to stop. In that same segment where creta/Seltos sells, MSIL has a product which has a 4 star safety rating car. So it is unfair on their part to charge a premium and not provide with a product which is "safe" enough.

[Starfire]

In other news, Maruti still bargaining on passenger safety stating people don’t really want safety as their top 5 priority in a car. Says “Will go for Bharat NCAP 'star rating' only if customer wants it”.

https://wap.business-standard.com/ar...2600856_1.html

On a lighter note, reaction of Indian car manufacturers for all you Hollywood movie buffs:

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by BleueNinja

We are criticising Hyundai and Kia because despite charging 15-22 lacs they are providing India with sub par products and that definitely needs to stop. In that same segment where creta/Seltos sells, MSIL has a product which has a 4 star safety rating car. So it is unfair on their part to charge a premium and not provide with a product which is "safe" enough.

As I have said in another thread, no one is holding people at gunpoint to buy a Hyundai or a Kia car. People are doing it because they like what they get for the price. Education and awareness on safety standards can only do so much. Beyond that it is just strict regulation and compliance. For which there is a cost to pay.

[pqr]

GNCAP rating | Car price | BNCAP way forward



In the above graph, cars are aligned in series based on the GNCAP score and price is also indicated to give a clear picture of who is charging what, and how much market share they command. What is bothering many with the recent round of GNCAP crash test rating of Hyundai-KIA products is - a low crash test rating for the high-priced cars commanding a high market share.

Key takeaway:

• Tata has made safe cars accessible to the masses with entry price starting at ₹ 5.4 lakhs for 4-star-rated products
• At a similar price point, Renault-Nissan is also delivering 4-star-rated cars
• For a little higher amount, Tata Motors even launched 5 stars rated Punch in India
• Hyundai-KIA despite charging hefty amounts are engineering India-specific low-cost BIW (body-in-white) to save cost and maximize profit even at the cost of occupant safety – that is pure greed
• Hyundai-KIA are having a double standard as they are exporting made-in-India cars with different BIW to other nations with higher safety rating where crash tests are mandatory
• A similar evil strategy was not witnessed with low-cost products from Nissan India

Greed neutralization system

Though the Indian Government has promised the introduction of the BNCAP rating system from 1st April 2023, it will take their whole agenda of occupant safety to just the halfway mark. Indian Government in past leap frogged emission standards in India, from BS4 to BS6, for the sake of environment, then why not impose penalty as a deterrent to manufacturers to make safe cars.



The amount in the above table is arbitrary, and just for illustration. The government with its vast resource can ascertain the right penalty amount to make things work.

Logic: Right now manufacturers selling higher safety-rated cars are getting penalized on the profitability front as Hyundai-KIA-Maruti is getting away with lower cost and competitively priced cars, and also Tata doesn’t have to prove that their flagship products (Safari & Harrier) are well rated.

A penalty system will push them either to absorb the penalty amount in their cost and take a hit on profit or pass it on to the customer by increasing price and taking a hit on sales volume. Either way, this system will logically lay down a level playing field for all manufacturers and make Indian customers more safety conscious.

[fiat_tarun]

Originally Posted by BleueNinja

...

As Ron and Rahul have pointed in their posts on initial pages of this thread NCAP implementation needs to be done post thorough analysis tailored to fit Indian requirements rather than ctr+c and ctr+v from Euro norms.

The sad reality is we do not have proper accident research in India to be able to design an NCAP around it. There is a private consortium called RASSI (Road Accident Sampling System of India) that is doing good work in this field but we still have a long way to go.

Considering this we have to start somewhere and the standard tests of Euro / Latin NCAP are a good reference point. All the tests are relevant for India - Frontal offset, side, pole, technologies like ESP, pedestrian, etc. BNCAP was first proposed in 2017 and we finally have it, so if we keep waiting for the right data, it may never come.

ARAI who played a big role in the roll out of the BNCAP has already stated in many interviews that India accident data will be used to fine tune the BNCAP going forward to bring about India specific tests.

Originally Posted by BleueNinja

We definitely should go to next level. When i say "tailored to fit Indian requirements" i meant NCAP should do so by taking in consideration 2 wheeler safety or other parameters that had a role to play in accidents in India.

Maybe these strict norms and guidelines can be implemented from B2 segment cars rather than implying them directly from entry level cars as automobile manufacturers are notorious for passing down cost to consumer and heavily so. ...

Just implementing something like a ABS legislation for 2W was such a huge move for our country. The biggest first step we need for 2W is 'enforcement' of the helmet rule, triple riding, wrong side riding, etc. and we will make huge progress.

Also the BNCAP is not mandatory or regulatory. Even if a car scores '0' star, it can continue to be sold, it's just that the consumer knows its safety level and may probably drive it differently knowing this fact !