[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by KiloAlpha

Sorry to say, but in India, the opposite is true. Violating a rule started off as a badge of honour, and has now elevated itself to a way of life.

Point is - we don't understand the concept of a "rule". This brouhaha about steep fines has an undercurrent of "injustice" meted out to public by the authorities. So it is OK to drive around in an unregistered, uninsured motorcycle drunk and without a helmet. The person doing that gets fined to the extent that it teaches a lesson and sets and example and this is a "bad" thing? I disagree.

Nitin Gadkari is swimming against the tide of 1.3 billion people believing in their heart of hearts that rules violation is routine, forgiveable, and as essential a part of India as the monsoons. Unless this mindset is changed, India will continue to rail against the existence of traffic rules.

+1 +1 to that. To break the rule is a fundamental right - such is our thinking. The offender may have got fined for helmet/ documents but he will next time think twice about jumping signals and driving on the wrong side. As some say the bribe amounts will go up. Sad but we'll live with it if it means better traffic discipline.

[WorkingGuru]

Originally Posted by moralfibre

...Empathy for law breakers? What next? Reservations for street usage out of empathy? Your argument directly reminds me of this man:...

Originally Posted by moralfibre

Sure, empathy is free. Traffic offence isn't.

I have not justified any violation. Violators MUST be prosecuted. I've merely stated my opinion on the penalty & the likely impact as per my understanding.

My post was a request to allow people to hold a right to dissent when an offensive post (Traffic Police enforcing new Motor Vehicles Act from 15/08/2019 : How do you plan to adapt?) ridiculed us as Indians. Pray you afford me the right to do so.

The second post was merely a proposition to calculate penalties differently.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I must compliment you on your sharp eye and perceptiveness. In just one post and a flash you have discovered by royal blood. Thank you. I've been telling my wife for well over 30 years ki hum khandani nawab hain but she doesn't listen to me. Now I'll show her your post as supporting evidence. A real monetary pressure to obey the law seems to have tickled some gland in your system mate. Just be sure you know the 'freedoms' may now carry a hefty price. BTW 'your highness' sounds good. I am getting used to it.

My humiliation is limited to being unable to convey my sarcasm against an extremely offensive post wherein you demand citizens be assaulted with a "danda" because you presume we Indians only understand that language.

[moralfibre]

Originally Posted by KiloAlpha

Rules are inviolable.

Nitin Gadkari is swimming against the tide of 1.3 billion people believing in their heart of hearts that rules violation is routine, forgiveable, and as essential a part of India as the monsoons. Unless this mindset is changed, India will continue to rail against the existence of traffic rules.

Very well put KiloAlpha. I can relate to the juniors at my workplace thrashing any sort of rules as a badge of honour. Reminds of this twitter user who tried to defend his act by saying he should be selectively fined for the offence and not made to pay: https://twitter.com/VedantKirtankar/...05610723708929

Somehow, the idea of adherence is lost upon our country and I believe this is a right step forward.

Look at the audacity of this auto rickshaw driver: News link . He has the guts to say that all he did was drove drunk!

[Axe77]

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

Traffic police won't accept Driving Licence on your Digi-Locker app if he/she suspects that you've broken a rule.

I find this very silly. If e copies of papers are allowed, then it should be acceptable even if you have violated a rule by mistake or otherwise. Its not like one leaves the house thinking - today I plan to break a rule, let me carry the physical papers.

The fact is that the challan can be electronically recorded on your license so I don't see the downside.

[raksrules]

I have no hope of people following traffic rules when my father himself refuses to wear seat belt when he sits in front seat of our car (my brother drives). He is highly egoist person and won't listen to such things so I have stopped telling him anything. I hope he is fined this big to bring him to his senses.

The other reason I get more pissed is due to having stayed in US for 4-5 years and saw how well laws are followed in 99.99% cases. Sorry for rant but I really want people to fear the law and follow rules.

[SR-71]

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

Traffic police won't accept Driving Licence on your Digi-Locker app if he/she suspects that you've broken a rule.

This is a bit ill-informed. Police & RTO are state subjects and so the acceptance of documents become a subject of the state decision. For example Karnataka accepts all documents including license and vehicle papers presented via digilocker. I am not sure about other states, but I know Kerala does not, atleast until recent past. So a sweeping statement is not right. One needs to look at what the individual states accept or do not accept. On a personal note, I think this whole approach is flawed. If digilocker is a app blessed by the central government all state government should adopt it without any bias.

[tilt]

For those who say “Meh, just follow rules”

I got a ticket by mail for not wearing a seat belt. I actually WAS wearing my seat-belt - my belt instinctively comes on even when I am just sat in a car, moving or not, whether in the driver's seat or not.

There was no photographic evidence of the same; the only “evidence” given to me when asked was a hand-written list of some vehicles that had supposedly committed various offences that morning at that location - written by the constable on duty there.

I spoke with the concerned inspector asking for proof that I was indeed not wearing my seat-belt - she could offer nothing other than claiming that a police constable could never be mistaken and could/would never lie or make any false charges; and that I had no option but to pay the fine.

Well, I followed rules. What do you have to say to this? "Just follow rules and you have nothing to worry about" my foot.

For those who say “Well, you can follow rules abroad, why not here”

Abroad, everyone (well, almost everyone) follows rules, traffic behaviour and the behaviour of other users of the road is quite predictable, and, rules are specified in a completely unambiguous and objective fashion.

In India, you will be the only person following rules, and in some cases it is even dangerous to follow rules. One can never predict the behaviour of any other road-user, and sometimes the only way to survive is to employ sudden manoeuvres yourself that may violate some traffic rule.

In India rules are very ambiguously written with no definition as to what anything constitutes. “Rash driving” - has it been objectively defined that can with no reasonable doubt be proven with incontrovertible evidence to everybody’s satisfaction?

Parking violations - abroad, there are enough places to park (may not be free, but there are places). Here, they indiscriminately mark every road, every street, every by-lane as "no parking", they do not provide paid parking options anywhere, and then they ticket you. So, where exactly is one supposed to park at all?

Abroad the incidences of being falsely accused of a traffic violation are not as common as they are here.

Finally, abroad, there are ways to contest your ticket. I do not have to pay a spot fine or have my vehicle impounded (unless of course it is such a major crime); and I have the option of contesting the charge in a court of law where the police are mandated to be present and provide any and all evidence that I have a right to demand - and if such is not provided, the charges are dropped.

Do I have any such recourse here? Provide me that, and then implement these penalties.

General comments:

Yes, there are some rules that are easy to follow - the carrying of all papers, the wearing of helmets and seat-belts, not being under the influence of intoxicants while in control of a motor-vehicle, not driving the wrong way up a street or in the wrong direction, etc. These are easy to follow precisely because they have been clearly defined and can be easily proven by anybody.

Other rules - exceeding speed-limits, running a Red-light for example, are easy to prove if the cops are so willing - most of the times they are not. They merely claim you did this and there is no recourse for the driver.

Also, when it comes to speed-limits, I know for a fact that when speed-limits are defined in a logical manner and are displayed prominently every certain distance and at logical points, they are rarely broken. Show me one logical speed-limit in India; and also show me where they are clearly displayed so that drivers are constantly made aware of it.

Rash-driving - what is this? Anything that can be attributed to “rash driving” has already been defined elsewhere and fines prescribed for the violations thereof. So, why add this to the list of violations and add an extra fine for this? Pure vindictiveness and megalomania? I shall add this just because I can and you can do nothing about it, so go screw yourself? Is that it? Certainly looks like it.

I do not have any objection to high penalties for rule violations; but please do provide me a way to dispute them in a legal way when I believe the ticket was not warranted.

Cheers

[locusjag]

Our PM Mr.Modi was advised in 2014 by his requested advisors from the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy (from Singapore) to firstly apply the danda liberally in matters of lawmaking and governance, and to not care about the whimpering of the people. Actually that advice most befits the Late Lee Kuan Yew's style of governance and thanks to him, Singapore is what it is today.

I'm super glad to see our fine people whimpering everywhere on social media. But what's this - our members who claim to drive safe are whimpering away over here?! Sorry to say this, but how can our forum's members try to weasel their way out of abiding by the laws of the land? This is not done

[GrammarNazi]

Originally Posted by Axe77

I find this very silly...

100% true. Yet if they're insisting on the physical smart card, show them this Govt notification :

[mayankjha1806]

I am hearing bunch of horror stories regarding having original documents in the car RC and Insurance.

Elsewhere i have read that all these documents on DigiLocker are fine, but read here that one needs to carry original copy of insurance.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/71001976.cms

The whole thing is sounding like a rip off instead of helping citizens to start abiding by the law.

Whats wrong with Photocopies?
Why DigiLocker isnt acceptable?

Anyone has any pointers would greatly help.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by tilt

.....

In India, you will be the only person following rules...

We all have the same concerns as yours, I don't like handing over hard-earned money for absurd reasons any more than you do, and law enforcement is often predatory (it's not specific to India), and we all want better implementation for everything. Nothing unique here.

But the quoted bit is why we struggle to get anything done, because we all want things to change, but none of us want to be the first person to fall in line, because our victim complex takes over "Why should I follow the rules when <they> (insert favorite punching bag of choice) aren't doing it?". Again, not specific to this country. All countries with better systems you allude to started with anarchy like we have, then slowly built up to the mature state they have today (and they work on constantly improving them too), in parallel with increased safety standards in equipment. Seat belts didn't exist mainstream two generations ago, then only lap belts existed for a while, we now have 3-point harnesses mandatory in developed nations and becoming commonplace in developing ones.

We have to start somewhere, so why not ourselves? I'm doing it under the assumption that I'll still suffer predatory law enforcement practices, and any long-term benefits will be enjoyed by the generation(s) after me.

We won't go from anarchy to stable state in one move, and our generation, and maybe the next one will have to bear with the nuisance adopting new stuff brings. I cribbed about the Metro construction in my area, now I use it frequently and love it. while I still crib about the Metro mayhem at other points on my oft-driven routes. Let's not make perfect the enemy of good, or good enough, or even a start.

[luvDriving]

I am already observing the effects of the increased penalties here in Pune.

At signals where people would randomly run the lights or not wait for the pedestrian signals, now I see more compliance with at least the pedestrian signals. I also see reduction in traffic light runners.

No idea how long this effect will last because it all depends upon enforcement. If traffic police remains actionless then people will go back to their ways. But nonetheless its a step in the right direction.

[airbus]

Originally Posted by mayankjha1806

but read here that one needs to carry original copy of insurance.

All my recent insurance renewals came as PDF by email. I make multiple colour prints and I can claim any copy is original

[humyum]

Originally Posted by locusjag

Our PM Mr.Modi was advised in 2014 by his requested advisors from the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy (from Singapore) to firstly apply the danda liberally in matters of lawmaking and governance, and to not care about the whimpering of the people. Actually that advice most befits the Late Lee Kuan Yew's style of governance and thanks to him, Singapore is what it is today.

I'm super glad to see our fine people whimpering everywhere on social media. But what's this - our members who claim to drive safe are whimpering away over here?! Sorry to say this, but how can our forum's members try to weasel their way out of abiding by the laws of the land? This is not done

In Corruption Index, Singapore ranks 3rd in the world and India ranks 78. Increasing the fine amount by huge amounts and leaving the corrupt to do whatever they want is just punishing the population.

Secondly, people are whimpering because the people who will implement the law have no morals and ethics. Ever been caught because some cop had to finish his quota? Or wanted to make a quick buck? Or simply wanted to show you who the boss is?

Sorry to say man, obeying the law has got nothing to do with why people are upset, people are upset at thugs being given too much power. Today morning, while walking to work from the metro, I saw police guys everywhere, stopping anyone and everyone and asking for documents. What is this? Just ways to loot the population. The automotive industry will further go into recession because of all this.

[GrammarNazi]

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

... Traffic police won't accept Driving Licence on your Digi-Locker app if he/she suspects that you've broken a rule.

As I said earlier, groud reality is that original DL will be demanded incase of violation.