[ruzbehxyz]

Originally Posted by sanchari

In India, it doesn't matter for the majority how safe the car is for child occupant. The test assumes people will put the child in child seat and secure them. There is absymal lack of awareness of child safety in automobiles in India. There is nothing in the driving license requirements or in any other safety campaign. I wonder if 50% of team-bhp members put their kids in child seats/boosters.

I totally agree with your comments. As a father first and a Team Bhpian second, I use child seats/ booster seat for both my kids and they are always secured even for a small drive. The only thing that I don’t have is an isofix for the child seat. This makes me uncomfortable at times.

How many manufactures in India provide isofix? Very few.

How many Indians are aware that carrying children on laps especially on the front seat is very very dangerous? Few.

Any RTO rules for carrying specific number of people in private cars including children? Rules exists but not followed. Then why do we certify private cars at all.

SAFETY is a big question in India. And the government just wants to fine people and make money in the name of safety.

[shankar.balan]

I am really keen to see how the new upcoming 5 Door Thar performs in this updated GNCAP Test. Equally keen to see how the existing 3 Door Thar performs. And of course the upcoming Maruti Jimny and the Assembled in India Jeep Wrangler as well.

[ron178]

Ouch. Japanese Suzuki Alto scores four star JNCAP rating:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRITQtVUW6E

[TheBigV]

Car companies, specially foreign ones operating in India are ethically and morally blind. Market leaders like Maruti and Hyundai take their end consumer's life for granted. It is really shameful that we have to look towards Government to frame some rules for passenger safety so that these companies will comply. In absence of such rules, these companies are busy minting money while making cheap, unsafe cars.

[bronco]

I agree that road safety needs to improve however that doesn’t mean manufacturers can make unsafe cars.

https://www.autocarindia.com/car-new...hargava-426724

[prabhu7944]

The statement of RC Bhargava is a clear indication of arrogance and indifference to customer safety. Though taxes on car have to be reduced it doesn't mean you can offer sub standard cars. Would love to see govt capping rates of car which does not score well in safety rating. Both govt and the manufacturer gain much and the customers is the loser here.

[Tucker48]

Can someone please confirm if the Scorpio N model tested was indeed a base model.

Base model comes with only 2 airbags. And obviously those are not curtain airbags.

All the previous 5 star cars will be reduced to 3 or less if side impact test is performed on them.

My advice is to take these safety ratings with a bag of salt especially when they don't test all the top selling models.

I would like to know the results of new Nexon with same testing criteria. Let them use the top model for that.

WHY NO SAFETY RATINGS FOR ROADS?

[pqr]

From the perspective of the frontal offset crash test result (old-protocol scoring system):



- Maruti Ignis and SPresso results are not entirely bad considering their price point.
- They can be made 5-star rated as well, but will become financially unviable, and potential customers would have no choice at that particular price point.
- Maruti Swift's result is really disappointing.
- Mahindra Scorpio N's (BoF) rating would be 4 stars, in line with the Thar (BoF) crash test result.
- Scorpio N Z2 variant doesn’t have ESC or side airbags, have they tested that particular variant then overall 5 star rating under new protocol might not have been possible, that raises question on GNCAP inconsistent variant selection approach.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by pqr

Mahindra Scorpio N's (BoF) rating would be 4 stars, in line with the Thar (BoF) crash test result.

Rib compression limits for chest scoring have changed so it is not possible to compare frontal offset test scores across different protocols.

It is hard to say what the Scorpio's score with the old protocols would be exactly but we can find a range based on the fact that the chest is painted orange (1.33-2.67).

Worst case: 2.67 new points -> 28.67mm compression -> 3.05 old points (change of 0.38)
Best case: 1.33 pts -> 35.33mm compression -> 2.1 old points (change of 0.77)

So the Scorpio's old ODB score would be 12.68-13.07 out of 16. Adding 1 point for seatbelt reminders that is 13.68-14.07 out of 17, which could be either 4 stars, or 5 stars with a Safer Choice Award.

While we're at it, under the old protocols the Swift, Ignis and S-Presso had 7.08, 9.99 and 8.96 respectively. None were awarded seatbelt reminder points because of either weak chest protection or bad performance of the reminders themselves.

Originally Posted by pqr

Scorpio N Z2 variant doesn’t have ESC or side airbags, have they tested that particular variant then overall 5 star rating under new protocol might not have been possible, that raises question on GNCAP inconsistent variant selection approach.

With the new protocols GNCAP no longer tests a single variant. Some tests use standard safety equipment but some additional equipment for the extra tests for higher star ratings is allowed as optional with sufficient production volume. The rating is therefore for the model range. The fitment rates and performance criteria of optional equipment have been published on the GNCAP website since July 2021.

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by ron178

While we're at it, under the old protocols the Swift, Ignis and S-Presso had 7.08, 9.99 and 8.96 respectively. None were awarded seatbelt reminder points because of either weak chest protection or bad performance of the reminders themselves.

With the new protocols GNCAP no longer tests a single variant. Some tests use standard safety equipment but some additional equipment for the extra tests for higher star ratings is allowed as optional with sufficient production volume. The rating is therefore for the model range. The fitment rates and performance criteria of optional equipment have been published on the GNCAP website since July 2021.

Have been following your posts on safety and like your honest/impartial opinion. I have quite a bit of queries on these ratings, hope you can help me with same:

1. How much weightage does safety features like ESP, Hill Hold, brake assists, ISO Fix etc. add to safety ratings? Does NCAP organization give any weightage/mention to minor safety kit like rear wash wipe, better tires, better brakes, better headlamps etc. ? Certainly these wont help any bit in crash/Collison, but I believe these do help in avoiding a crash in first place.

2. While Spresso, Swift, Ignis scored poor 1 star, how the direct competition would fare in new regime?

Kwid- 1 star earlier(Spresso competition)
i10/Tiago 2 and 4 star earlier(Swift Competition)
Punch- 5 star earlier(Ignis competition)

3. While NCAP does say a cars crash worthiness, do they also point to manufacturers what has to be improved in order to improve safety? or what they should do to achieve 5 star? While pointing out flaws is good, ability to suggest a solution makes one great!

4. Do mechanisms like auto fuel cutoff, auto unlock, emergency braking lamps etc, contribute to better rating? Some of these can be life saving during/post crash.

5. Why don't these organizations maintain uniformity in selecting variants? Of course I don't expect them to test all variants, but for sake of comparison, shouldn't they stick to base variants for all cars? Do they pick cars based on funding/availability or is there some rational like say "most popular variant"?

[ron178]

Originally Posted by PrideRed

How much weightage does safety features like ESP, Hill Hold, brake assists, ISO Fix etc. add to safety ratings?

For new (July 2022+) Indian ratings, ESC is required for three stars and above. For three stars it can be optional on any one variant, for four or five stars it must be either standard or an independent option on every variant and fitted to a significant portion of units sold (meeting GNCAP criteria). Hill Hold and Brake Assist are not part of the ratings.

ISOFIX and i-Size anchorages add some points to the vehicle-based part of the child occupant protection star rating and generally, at least for forward-facing seats, using ISOFIX anchorages and an antirotation device instead of an adult belt may improve dynamic performance of the child dummies in the test, but this depends greatly on the child seats selected by the car manufacturer, and the car itself.

Generally ISOFIX anchorages, i-Size even more so, reduce the risk of incorrect installation so cars are marked up for having them.

Originally Posted by PrideRed

Does NCAP organization give any weightage/mention to minor safety kit like rear wash wipe, better tires, better brakes, better headlamps etc. ?

Most of them are not tested by any NCAP including the GNCAP who tests cars for India. Headlamps are only tested by the IIHS (US insurance-funded consumer test organisation) and JNCAP (Japan).

Originally Posted by PrideRed

While Spresso, Swift, Ignis scored poor 1 star, how the direct competition would fare in new regime?
Kwid- 1 star earlier(Spresso competition)
i10/Tiago 2 and 4 star earlier(Swift Competition)
Punch- 5 star earlier(Ignis competition)

Minor correction, the Kwid with two airbags had two stars earlier (2020 Africa test).
It is impossible to say exactly what a car would score with the new protocols, but based on equipment/old results alone, I could give you a range: all those cars would be limited to a maximum of two stars for not offering ESC.

Originally Posted by PrideRed

While NCAP does say a cars crash worthiness, do they also point to manufacturers what has to be improved in order to improve safety? or what they should do to achieve 5 star? While pointing out flaws is good, ability to suggest a solution makes one great!

Not quite - they do show what parts need improvement but rarely suggest design improvements directly. The more mature NCAPs consult with the industry while developing new tests to determine which improvements are feasible, but the newer NCAPs like the GNCAP usually use older tests from the mature NCAPs and since car manufacturers have been accustomed to these tests for decades, they know exactly what they have to do (eg. all the three physical impacts in the latest GNCAP protocols have been part of Euro NCAP since 2001, some even earlier)

Originally Posted by PrideRed

Do mechanisms like auto fuel cutoff, auto unlock, emergency braking lamps etc, contribute to better rating? Some of these can be life saving during/post crash.

No, but post-test fuel leakage is penalised, and door opening forces are measured and, in extreme cases, published (although not used in the scoring)

Originally Posted by PrideRed

Why don't these organizations maintain uniformity in selecting variants? Of course I don't expect them to test all variants, but for sake of comparison, shouldn't they stick to base variants for all cars? Do they pick cars based on funding/availability or is there some rational like say "most popular variant"?

Perhaps I should be more clear, in the part of my post you have quoted, when I said a different variant is used for each test, I meant multiple variants of a car may be used for an assessment, a different one for a different test (eg. front, side, side pole). I did not mean a different variant is used for each model tested.

The reason is that some tests don't make sense without certain equipment (except to capture attention), eg. an ESC test on a car without ESC, so a variant with the optional equipment fitted is used for testing and if the equipment is deemed popular enough (i.e., it meets a predefined fitment rate), it is included in the final rating. Why not require the equipment as standard as a prerequisite for doing the test, well, that is debatable. The industry would probably become much more hostile if that was the case although personally I think doing that (and having a different star rating for each variant) would make things much more transparent for consumers, whom these organisations are supposed to protect in the first place.

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by ron178

For new (July 2022+) Indian ratings, ESC is required for three stars and above. For three stars it can be optional on any one variant, for four or five stars it must be either standard or an independent option on every variant and fitted to a significant portion of units sold (meeting GNCAP criteria). Hill Hold and Brake Assist are not part of the ratings.

Minor correction, the Kwid with two airbags had two stars earlier (2020 Africa test).
It is impossible to say exactly what a car would score with the new protocols, but based on equipment/old results alone, I could give you a range: all those cars would be limited to a maximum of two stars for not offering ESC.

The reason is that some tests don't make sense without certain equipment (except to capture attention), eg. an ESC test on a car without ESC, so a variant with the optional equipment fitted is used for testing and if the equipment is deemed popular enough (i.e., it meets a predefined fitment rate), it is included in the final rating. Why not require the equipment as standard as a prerequisite for doing the test, well, that is debatable. The industry would probably become much more hostile if that was the case although personally I think doing that (and having a different star rating for each variant) would make things much more transparent for consumers, whom these organisations are supposed to protect in the first place.

Thank you for taking time to provide a detailed explanation. Variant explanation is clear and I get your point that it may not be feasible to keep things transparent. I hope these org also start including more and more parameters in deciding the ratings which good for the buyer.

Very sad to see we may not have a 5 star car or in fact even a 3 star car under 10L. May be the Kiger/Magnite/Amaze might score 3 as i recall they get optional ESP. I don't think Tata will send Tiago/Tigor/Punch for evaluation until they update cars with ESP as they are likely to score 2 stars.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by PrideRed

May be the Kiger/Magnite/Amaze might score 3 as i recall they get optional ESP.

Out of every car under 10L I think the only ones that are likely to score 3 or more stars with the new protocols, AND offer the necessary equipment on affordable variants, are the Tata Nexon, new Maruti Brezza/Ertiga and Kia Sonet. The Baleno Zeta and Nissan Magnite XL TCe100, both with ESC, also come in just shy of 10L OTR.

The XUV300, i20 and Venue might be able to score 3 or more stars, but the ESC they offer as optional is available only on expensive variants.

Out of the above cars I have some concerns about the i20 and Baleno/Glanza actually being able to score three stars because of questionable side impact crashworthiness.

We don't know anything about the crashworthiness performance of the Venue and Sonet, but even with unexceptional frontal impact performance like the Creta/Seltos, I think they should be able to reach the minimum score for three 'new' stars because SUVs do well in the side impact almost without exception. The Kia Sonet additionally has standard side torso airbags.

---

In other news, I think the GNCAP is not done publishing ratings from their 2022 funds. The GNCAP gets funds to assess around 3-4 cars a year. When the new protocols were supposed to start (originally 2021) funding was doubled so they could assess the same number of cars while using two units of a car per assessment. However the new protocols did not come in 2021, which is why the GNCAP could assess 7 cars against the old protocols with the funds allocated for 2021. Now in 2022 they have simply added a side impact to three old frontal results, which means they have probably assessed ~2-3 other cars too and I estimate they will publish them around Jan/Feb. IIRC in a media interview long ago Alejandro Furas had hinted the first results under the new protocols would be a mix of reassessments of older cars as well as new cars.

[abeezee]

It's pathetic to see market leaders like Maruti pay less attention to one of the foremost attributes of a car that is the safety! I wonder how much they'd have scored (sub zero??) had not the government made it mandatory for two airbags as minimum! Prior to such legal requirements, it just pains to think how many lives mustve been lost in road accidents due to poorly structured vehicles. Nowadays even Hyundai seems to have followed suit as their GNCAP ratings have gone down too. But at least they're not at the Maruti level. Admirable work by TATA and Mahindra, now other manufacturers also have to take safety seriously. But sadly the thing in India is, mileage is still the king of features for most people. It's as if people are in denial that an accident could ever happen to them. I think slowly but surely this mentality will change, and more people are going to realise the importance of buying a safe car!

[am1m]

While I do drive a very unsafe car, the new Maruti Swift, very grateful for these crash test videos. No one can doubt the use and value of seat belts and child seats after seeing how the occupant dummies get flung around inside at a even lower speed (relatively, compared to highway speeds) impacts.

Not surprised at all to see the Swift crumple like that on side impact- over the past 4 years of ownership, we've seen first-hand how flimsy the doors and panels are.