[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

So handsome. The ideal MiG-21 armament configuration of that era. Beautiful. Congratulations. The export version of the SM was built by HAL as the Type 88.

I believe the 3rd gen MiG-21s built by HAL were the Type 96s(MiG-21M), which was basically a downgraded version of direct supply MiG-21MFs(Type 96F). Unlike the MF, these HAL built Ms did not have Kh-66 firing capability and were powered the R-11F2S-300 engine which was being manufactured in India and was also powering the HAL built Type 77 MiG-21FLs.

Direct Supply Russian built Indian MiG-21MFs were powered by the slightly powerful R-13 engine and had the ability to fire the Kh-66 missile. Externally both the M & MF looked similar and nearly impossible to differentiate (only if you looked inside the tail pipe, you could tell the engine difference and thus if it is an M or a MF).

The only was to easily differentiate the Indian M & MFs was based on the serial numbers. The HAL built Type 96 MiG-21Ms were serial numbered from C1531 to C1632 while the direct supply Type 96F MiG-21MFs were serial numbered from C1474 to C1509.

Sqdn Ldr Ajay Ahuja was flying C1539, the 9th HAL built MiG-21M, when he was shot down and killed by the cowardly Pakistanis in the Kargil War.

Difference in handling of the M & MFs and their capabilities have been mentioned in useful bits in the book "Battle Axes - the book on the IAF's much celebrated 7 Squadron. They were the squadron that transitioned into direct supply MFs from the Hawker Hunter and later had to exchange their MFs with HAL built Ms of No. 108 "Hawkeyes" Squadron. Much later, the surviving MiG-21Ms were retrofitted with the R-13 engine to maintain fleet commonality.

A trio of ACM painted IAF MiG-21s (The middle C1531 is a MiG-21M while the nearest & farthest ones - C1500 & C1478 are MiG-21MFs)


"Adversaries"
Variants of these two legendary jets went to clash numerous times over the skies of Vietnam, Middle East and Iran/Iraq.






You can almost hear the growl of an AIM-9 as the Phantom positions itself for a rear aspect missile shot on the Fishbed


Pop Quiz: Which was the only air arm to operate the MiG-21 & F-4 together? Luftwaffe & LSK don't count as one.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

I believe the 3rd gen MiG-21s built by HAL were the Type 96s(MiG-21M), which was basically a downgraded version of direct supply MiG-21MFs(Type 96F). Unlike the MF, these HAL built Ms did not have Kh-66 firing capability and were powered the R-11F2S-300 engine which was being manufactured in India and was also powering the HAL built Type 77 MiG-21FLs.

Your knowledge of Mig-21 variants is truly comprehensive

Originally Posted by skanchan95

You can almost hear the growl of an AIM-9 as the Phantom positions itself for a rear aspect missile shot on the Fishbed
Attachment 1782282

The range is too short and the angle of attack is too much for an AIM-9 B,C or D Sidewinder of the 1970s

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Pop Quiz: Which was the only air arm to operate the MiG-21 & F-4 together? Luftwaffe & LSK don't count as one.

Egyptian Air Force and Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (although they use the Chinese copy, F-7).

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Your knowledge of Mig-21 variants is truly comprehensive

Its all from the notes I made based on reading books and browsing open source military forums, while researching for Indian MiG-21 mods for the flight sim Strike Fighters 2.

The list of all generations of MiG-21 variants the the IAF operated/operates:
Fighters:
Type 74 MiG-21F-13 Fishbed-C (BC816-821) 1964 <DS>
Type 76 MiG-21PF Fishbed-D (BC822-824) 1964 <DS>
Type 77 MiG-21FL Fishbed-D (<CXXX series full list>) 1967 <DS/HAL built>
Type 77 MiG-21FL Fishbed-D (Late) with two additional pylons on the wings 1980+<stored airframes retrofitted>
Type 96 MiG-21M Fishbed-J (C1531-1632) 1973 <HAL built>
Type 96F MiG-21MF Fishbed-J (C1474-1509) 1972(73?) <DS>
Type 75 MiG-21bis Fishbed-N (C2067-2334, C2776-2835) 1979 <DS/HAL built>
MiG-21 Bison (CU-XXXX series) "Son of a bis" UPG 1998 <2 airframes UPG in Russia, rest by HAL>.

Trainers:
Type 66 MiG-21U Mongol-A (U-XXX series)
Type 68 MiG-21US Mongol-B
Type 69 MiG-21UM Mongol-B

Originally Posted by Foxbat

The range is too short and the angle of attack is too much for an AIM-9 B,C or D Sidewinder of the 1970s

Not for the J model though

The Phantom driver heard you, is reducing power and has popped speedbrakes to increase range for a sidewinder shot.

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Egyptian Air Force and Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (although they use the Chinese copy, F-7).

Bingo!!!!
The F-7 is a cheap Chinese copy, and is an insult to the mighty and legendary MiG-21. So Iran doesn't count.

Its amazing to see the kind of exotic birds the Egyptians had in their fleet once. Even now they have a fighter mix of modern Fulcrums, F-16s, Mirage 2000s and Rafales. Logistical and maintenance nightmare may be but the sheer variety is brilliant and its good to build up numbers. Something which the govt & IAF could learn from. In an attempt to have a single fighter type, the IAF fighter numbers have fallen and declined alarmingly and we are neither here or nor there in terms of fighter squadron numbers .

Other than the USN F-14, A-7 & A-6, all other jets are Egyptian.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Its all from the notes I made based on reading books and browsing open source military forums,

Oh my God. Your knowledge down to tail fin numbers is quite amazing.

Type 77 MiG-21FL Fishbed-D (Late) with two additional pylons on the wings 1980+<stored airframes retrofitted>

Can you re-check this. The early direct supply aircraft had two pylons only and the first 6 pilots trained (including Dilbagh Singh, later CAS and Denzil Keelor) gave feedback on the need for a gun and need to carry it along with the fuel tanks and 2 AAMs. That led to the FL which fought in 1971 and those for sure had 4 pylons with the 23mm gun pack neutralizing the centre pylon, the wing inners used by the Atolls and the wing outers carrying the drop tanks.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Oh my God. Your knowledge down to tail fin numbers is quite amazing.

I have a full serial number list of almost all IAF fighters till date. I can't share it here or else the IAF would come knocking at my door, considering their orders to censor aircraft serial numbers in photos(new).

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Can you re-check this. The early direct supply aircraft had two pylons only and the first 6 pilots trained (including Dilbagh Singh, later CAS and Denzil Keelor) gave feedback on the need for a gun and need to carry it along with the fuel tanks and 2 AAMs. That led to the FL which fought in 1971 and those for sure had 4 pylons with the 23mm gun pack neutralizing the centre pylon, the wing inners used by the Atolls and the wing outers carrying the drop tanks.

The first six pilots sent to the Soviet Union in 1963 to train on the Type 74 MiG-21F-13, which already had an internal gun, were: W/C Dilbagh Singh, S/L MSD Wollen, S/L S K Mehra, F/L A K Mukherjee, F/L H S Gill, F/L A K Sen, F/L Denzil Keelor and F/L B D Jayal.

No. 28 Squadron aptly named the First Supersonics, formed in 1963, curiously had two different generations of MiG-21 - the first generation Type 74 MiG-21F-13 and the second generation Type 76 MiG-21PF.

The Type 74 MiG-21F-13, shown below, was a daylight interceptor without radar, armed with one one or 30mm NR-30 cannon, IR missiles or rocket pods/bombs on two wing pylons.


Internal NR-30 cannon on the starboard side:


The Type 76 MiG-21PF, shown below, was a Radar equipped all-weather interceptor, armed with missiles on two wing pylons only. It did not have an internal cannon like the Type 74 nor was it wired to carry a gunpod. Like the Type 74, the PF could carry IR missiles or rocket pods/bombs on the two wing pylons.


During one CAP mission flown in the 1965 war by S/L MSD Wollen on the Type 76 MiG-21PF , he was chasing a PAF F-86 at low level when he fired both his K-13s at the fleeing Sabre, both failed to track and missed. Frustrated, the IAF pilot wanted to ram the Sabre with his MiG but better sense prevailed. Had he been flying the Type 74 that day, he surely would have shot down the Sabre using his cannon.

It was experiences like these that the IAF passed to the Soviets for a need to install a gun on the MiG-21. The MiG-21FL thus came wired to carry the GP-9 gunpod on the centerline but they had problems with gunsight accuracy until it was solved much later by using the Gnat's gunsight on IAF MiG-21FLs.

Sadly only two ex-IAF MiG-21PFs survive today and I was able to correctly identify it as a Type 76. It was earlier wrongly labelled as Type 77 MiG-21FL and I consider the correct identification as an achievementLink

The Type 77 MiG-21FL(shown below) was basically a MiG-21PF but different and larger Fin type with a brake parachute container. Centerline (detachable) GP-9 gunpod are visible


As for the four pylon Type 77 MiG-21FL [what we call MiG-21FL(Late)], here's the story :
A number of FL airframes were sent into storage in the mid-70s as the new Type 96 MiG-21M & Type 75 MiG-21bis variants were being introduced into service. These aircraft were pulled out from storage again in the late-80s and retrofitted with two additional hard points under the wings. I am really not sure how true that story is because three MiG-21FL squadrons (Nos. 3, 4 & 45) converted to the MiG-21bis. MiG-21M & MFs went to former Hunter & Su-7 squadron(No.7,17, 101, 108 & the lone oddball 35 squadron which was formerly a Canberra squadron).


Also early 1st & 2nd gen MiG-21s(F/F-13/PF/PFM/PFS/FL) I believe could not carry drop tanks on the wings, they could only carry it on the centerline station.
Even during the 1971 war, IAF MiG-21FLs were flying with only two wing pylons. Here's an article which a MiG-21FL launched two K-13s at a PAF Sabre Mk.6 but both failed to track. On the centerline station he was carrrying a drop tank instead of the gun(for range considerations) Wish I had a Gun!!!!

On 4th December 1971 I was detailed to escort a strike mission of four aircraft equipped with 57mm rockets led by the Squadron Commander Wg Cdr B K Bishnoi (Bhoop). My number two for the mission was Flt Lt David Subaiya (Dadoo). Our aircraft were equipped with two K-13 infra-red homing missiles, one under each wing and a single long range fuel drop tank under the belly of the aircraft.

Even Arab MiG-21PF/PFM/FLs suffered against Israeli jets because of lack of an internal gun.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

I have a full serial number list of almost all IAF fighters till date. I can't share it here or else the IAF would come knocking at my door, considering their orders to censor aircraft serial numbers in photos(new).
.

Just curious, why are they so sensitive about aircraft serial numbers.

Jeroen

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Just curious, why are they so sensitive about aircraft serial numbers.

Jeroen

No one has an idea abut why they are doing it, but its been going on since the last 5-6 years. On Social media, prominent defence pages post censored IAF aircraft images(serial number blanked out) .

This is the l latest pic they posted on IAF's official FB page - IAF Su-30s , C-130 & C-17 on Indonesian soil and about getting ready to fly to Australia to participate in EX Pitch Black 2018. As you can see the serial number of the nearest Su-30 has been censored, so has the C-17's.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Hopefully the last in my collection of 777-300s (4) and 777-200s (3).

But.....

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Superb!!!! Add an AI 777-300 to your colection to add some Indian favour to your 777-300 fleet.

So .....

Hogan 1:200 Air India Boeing 777-300ER VT-ALJ "Bihar"






Joins the Air India fleet.


All three Hogan wide bodies are exquisitely detailed and match perfectly

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

The first six pilots sent to the Soviet Union in 1963 to train on the Type 74 MiG-21F-13, which already had an internal gun

True. Agree.

No. 28 Squadron aptly named the First Supersonics, formed in 1963, curiously had two different generations of MiG-21 - the first generation Type 74 MiG-21F-13 and the second generation Type 76 MiG-21PF.

Thank you for this gem of data. Dilbagh Singh I recollect was the first C.O.

The Type 74 MiG-21F-13, shown below, was a daylight interceptor without radar, armed with one one or 30mm NR-30 cannon, IR missiles or rocket pods/bombs on two wing pylons.
The Type 76 MiG-21PF, shown below, was a Radar equipped all-weather interceptor, armed with missiles on two wing pylons only. It did not have an internal cannon like the Type 74 nor was it wired to carry a gunpod. Like the Type 74, the PF could carry IR missiles or rocket pods/bombs on the two wing pylons.

Agree. So far we are on the same page. I do not know how many of these two types came in as direct supply but I don't think it was more than 40 or 50.

It was experiences like these that the IAF passed to the Soviets for a need to install a gun on the MiG-21. The MiG-21FL thus came wired to carry the GP-9 gunpod on the centerline ....The Type 77 MiG-21FL(shown below) was basically a MiG-21PF but different and larger Fin type with a brake parachute container. Centerline (detachable) GP-9 gunpod are visible

This is where my understanding digresses. The FLs we assembled, I believe, had 4 wing pylons where the outers carried the tanks. But I may be wrong.

Originally Posted by Foxbat

All three Hogan wide bodies are exquisitely detailed and match perfectly

Foxbat congratulations on your new 777. you will soon get appointed by Air India as their brand ambassador. I like your 747-400 old livery model the best.

Bombardier Q-400 1:100 scale; plastic

Model is a little over a foot long. Level of detailing is okay-okay not outstanding.

With the Udaan regional connectivity scheme we are likely to see more Q-400s in Indian skies. For a turbo prop it is a fast machine cruising at ~600 to 650 kmph.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Bombardier Q-400 1:100 scale; plastic

Model is a little over a foot long. Level of detailing is okay-okay not outstanding.

Another unique one in your collection and a pretty large one
I found this very similar to the 1:500 De Havilland DHC-8-300 I had posted a few months back and after a bit of research it turns out this is development of that aircraft.

Can you tell us the source and the brand? Something tells me this is related to your business....

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Another unique one in your collection and a pretty large one
I found this very similar to the 1:500 De Havilland DHC-8-300 I had posted a few months back and after a bit of research it turns out this is development of that aircraft.

Can you tell us the source and the brand? Something tells me this is related to your business....

Yes it was complimentary from the company. I do not know the model maker as the box only carries the OEMs markings. Made in China (where else!!). The Q-400 and Dash 8 look similar and share the shoulder wing, T-tail configuration and fuselage but are completely different aircraft WRT wings and engines. But at the minute detailed engineering level they can be seen to be of the same family.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Hogan 1:200 Air India Boeing 777-300ER VT-ALJ "Bihar"

Couldn't resist, could you? Fantastic to see it in your collection and it completes you AI fleet.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

True. Agree.
Thank you for this gem of data. Dilbagh Singh I recollect was the first C.O.

Yes, then Wing Commander Dilbagh Singh was the first CO of NO. 28 Sqdn.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I do not know how many of these two types came in as direct supply but I don't think it was more than 40 or 50.

The F & PF variants were all direct supply and were peanuts(total 12) compared to 247 FLs that were eventually inducted by the IAF.
MiG-21F-13 Type 74 - 6 nos - BC816-821(March 1963)
MiG-21PF Type 76 - 6 nos - BC822-827(April 1965)

Of the six Type 74s, two were lost in a Mid Air Collision in December 1963. Fortunately both pilots(F/L A K Mukherjee & S/L MSD Wollen) ejected & survived. It was mostly after this MAC, that they decided to do away with the bulky spacesuit flying suits. In the 1965 war, BC818 was destroyed on the ground in Adampur & BC816 was damaged(but repaired) after a PAF B-57 air raid on Adampur AFS.

Of the six Type 76s, BC823 & BC824 was destroyed on ground in Pathankot AFS after a PAF F-86 air raid.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This is where my understanding digresses. The FLs we assembled, I believe, had 4 wing pylons where the outers carried the tanks. But I may be wrong.

Sir, You have practical and hands on knowledge of aircraft, so I cannot dispute your knowledge and I am not I sure about it either. Only HAL and former MiG-21FL pilots and technicians will have hard data on this.

But in all the books I have read an the pics I have seen, none of the early MiG-21FLs seem to have four wing pylons (only pics from 1980s onwards show two additional pylons on the wing and none of them show the fuel tank being carried on the wings of a MiG-21FL) . Even the image of the first HAL built MiG-21FL C582 after its first flight, has two wing pylons only.

My copy of Yefim Gordon's Warbird Tech Series MiG-21 states that the four wing pylons were tested and implemented only on the 3rd generation MiG-21(R/M/MF/SM/SMT etc) onwards. Plumbing for extra two pylons and carriage for underwing fuel tanks on the wings was done on 3rd generation MiG-21 onwards.

Also, Air Marshal Phillip Rajkumar has written this in his book - "First to the Last : 50 years on MiG-21 in the IAF", with regard to comparing the Type 77 MiG-21FL to the Type 96 MiG-21M.


This is most definitive line...that the Type 77 MiG-21FL could not carry fuel tanks on the wing:

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Bombardier Q-400 1:100 scale; plastic

Model is a little over a foot long. Level of detailing is okay-okay not outstanding.

With the Udaan regional connectivity scheme we are likely to see more Q-400s in Indian skies. For a turbo prop it is a fast machine cruising at ~600 to 650 kmph.

Beautiful. You have access to models which us lesser mortals can only dream of.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

But in all the books I have read an the pics I have seen, none of the early MiG-21FLs seem to have four wing pylons (only pics from 1980s onwards show two additional pylons on the wing and none of them show the fuel tank being carried on the wings of a MiG-21FL) . Even the image of the first HAL built MiG-21FL C498 after its first flight, has two wing pylons only.

Also, Air Marshal Phillip Rajkumar has written this in his book - "First to the Last : 50 years on MiG-21 in the IAF", with regard to comparing the Type 77 MiG-21FL to the Type 96 MiG-21M.

Your knowledge and intensity of reading is superlative. Thanks. I stand corrected. Time for me to buy Phillip Rajkumar's book.

Beautiful. You have access to models which us lesser mortals can only dream of .

After retiring my access has diminished somewhat. But old friends till tolerate me once in a while and I shamelessly insist on a model I don't have. :-) In terms of detailing it is actually quite basic. But what the hell. Note the straight thin wing. The straightness called aspect ratio (in this case 13 or so) reflects the ability to fly slow and low and hence runway length. The thinness of the wing reflects the need for flying at its relatively high speed of 350 knots.

[V.Narayan]

Super Guppy 1:400 scale model. Diecast polished model

As a 1:400 it is quite small just under 5 inches.

The model is not a perfectly crafted one in terms of detailing but I purchased it because it was an unusual aircraft in its time and till the appearance of the Airbus Beluga and the Boeing 747 Large Cargo Freighter it was for 3 decades the only air transporter for outsize cargoes that had to be flown and not sailed or railed - pardon my English this is poetic license of an aircraft lover.

The old Boeing Stratocruiser C-97's were sliched at mid-height of the fuselage and had this outsize double-bubble compartment perched on. The piston engines were replaced by Allisons - the same which powered the C-130 in those days. Airbus operated 5 of these. It must have required tremendous pilot skill to keep these stable in flight - the centre of gravity on the vertical axis, the aerodynamic forces of this huge dome etc. I would have thought the aircraft would need a twin tail for stability (like the Beluga but it seems not)

[V.Narayan]

McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) MD-11 1:200 scale; Plastic

The model is about a foot long

Sorry guys but I am unemployed. So posting away merrily.