[vinit.merchant]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

Thus I feel that bribes aren't a violation since the establishment doesn't pay very well and hence they are aware that their "servants" need to look to other means for getting a salary suited to present standards of life. This includes BSNL linemen, property tax inspectors and sub-registrars.

I am sure you must be aware that there are bribes offered of unthinkable amounts to get these government jobs in the first place. These low salary paying jobs are that lucrative.

Problem is, a complete blind eye was given when things started to get mad. Today the only reason for 95% (if not 99) of the people to get into government jobs (by bribing, of course) is to work on collecting bribes. There is no other incentive or motivation or purpose for these 95% employees.
And even if the salary levels are increased, this will not change. I remember Maharashtra state government jobs got a multifold hike in salaries (I think 3 times) not so long back, when Sharard Pawar's NCP was in power. Their salaries now equate or exceed the salaries in private sector. But corruption has remained.

Problem is, we all see this corruption as a way of life and there being no way out or as you guys put it, no other way.

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

I am sure you must be aware that there are bribes offered of unthinkable amounts to get these government jobs in the first place. These low salary paying jobs are that lucrative.

Exactly, and becoming a politician involves much of the same process as well, hiring men for canvassing, free liquor, lunches, "contributing" to the BPL's kitty and basically a lot of cash. People move from being "common" citizens into the government, thus basically they are common people.. only they forget their roots and start screwing the public inside out when in a position of power.

A cashless society is NOT the solution to a bribe-free, corruption-free state. It merely means more transaction fees per transaction and much higher commodity/service pricing. This is the reality and it will happen :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdD3CaKcfG0

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

People move from being "common" citizens into the government, thus basically they are common people.. only they forget their roots and start screwing the public inside out when in a position of power.

So is this abuse more acceptable than that from the British pre independence or from those of royal blood/zamindars then and earlier? Have we basically continued the same feudal system of patronage and corruption, under the sugar coating of being members of the world biggest democracy, and just exchanged one set of zamindars for another?

The thing is the poor are powerless to do much about this, and most of us educated "citizens" are willing to pay the price as long as we are still left with some zone of comfort, undisturbed by those in power above us and the poor below us.

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

So is this abuse more acceptable than that from the British pre independence or from those of royal blood/zamindars then and earlier? Have we basically continued the same feudal system of patronage and corruption, under the sugar coating of being members of the world biggest democracy, and just exchanged one set of zamindars for another?

Though most will vehemently say no, I would agree with this statement fully. It is not because it is India or it is a certain political party.. it is because we're all human beings, myopic and just relying on our optimal survival day to day at any cost (other than that of money). I can't say that this will ever stop, either.. a great society is built on the rather rigid fundamental rules of trust, co-operation and mutual-helpfulness, and the reality is that we can only trust very few people, among them only a fraction co-operate and even fewer, help in times of need.

The thing is the poor are powerless to do much about this, and most of us educated "citizens" are willing to pay the price as long as we are still left with some zone of comfort, undisturbed by those in power above us and the poor below us.

The thing is even if one tries to do something about it, within legal framework and by using logic and reasoning, the diatribe by considering them traitors, negative and anti-poor will start and in no time will such people shut up. I have a friend from biz school and every so often we debate about the happenings on earth an within the country.. during the first time we discussed demonetization I was complaining on how notes aren't available and that most expenses aren't being met due to the non-availability, irritated she told me that I should count my blessings and co-operate with the changes, only then greatness will come. I said give it a year and see for any such changes, almost a year and she has already taken a different stance today.

I guess we people, middle class, whether upper or lower, are also trying to survive on a day to day basis. Depending on our resources we have bills to clear, salaries to pay and expenses to meet and they are all going up by the day. The poor are occupied with borderline survival (aka roti kapda makan) and the rulers.. well they need to rule and become stronger every passing day.

I often wonder what'd happen if there were peaceful protests by uniting lakhs of people..peaceful yet moving and that would lead to great changes and an eye-opening experience for the bureaucrats as well who would then change their ways. Then reality hits and I know its just movie material.. pol-fi.

[vkr15]

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

I am sure you must be aware that there are bribes offered of unthinkable amounts to get these government jobs in the first place. .

Trust you have excluded the defence services in your articulation. They are also doing govt. jobs and there are over 10 lakhs of them.
Procurement and acquisition of defence hardware and ammo is still the prerogative of bureaucrats and politicians and that is where all the money is made. Not surprisingly, uniformed personnel only come into the picture during evaluation stage and making recommendations to the ministry. The babus and middlemen then take over. Yes the odd case does come up but these are very few and far between.

[ashokrajagopal]

At the risk of diverging too much from the topic in this thread, let me try to, just try to bring in a perspective.

We, in India or around the world, live in a society, as a community. Its the work of the group that let man evolve into this form of present.

With that in place, people from around the world chose democracy. It may not be the best system, but its the best we have. History has proven over and over that everything else breaks down.
For a country like India, which is new ( I mean in a democratic framework) will take time for teething. We could all debate about policy, criticize the government, so on and so on. But the idea that "Government employees" are all bad and they all try to screw up people and that "politicians" are all bad and they are all evil is completely flawed.

There is not much training in democratic values for people working as Government servants. They do not know to use discretionary power. But it will change because there is no other way.

Many people pass the judgement about current state of affairs and equate it to pre independence or monarchy era. Really ? The constitutional framework that governs this country has flaws. But you do not have to look farther than our neighbors to see how different our democracy is. The cynicism in criticising and generalising the state of affairs and assuming it is something in the very nature of human beings is not just short sighted, it is also a plain surrender of the human thought of not just us, but the coming generations as well. Its not long since the world did away with slavery. Yes, you, people around you and your era may be either too timid to try or failed after trying. Why would anyone speak for what is going to come in future ?

PS: I am not advocating the current government, or the previous one.

Originally Posted by dark.knight

I often wonder what'd happen if there were peaceful protests by uniting lakhs of people..peaceful yet moving and that would lead to great changes and an eye-opening experience for the bureaucrats as well who would then change their ways.

That would be great. There have been mass movements thru out the world, in some cases started by single leaders, in others by a moving thought. The key thing to note here is, if I start a movement and it dies down without moving the first cause of the failure is my shortcoming. If the world doesnt work as per my worldview, the first thing to review may be my world view. Because I am so small compared to the world.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

With that in place, people from around the world chose democracy. It may not be the best system, but its the best we have. History has proven over and over that everything else breaks down.

The problem with absolute democracy is that the will of the majority is imposed on the minority. A republic provides some respite where the rule of law reigns supreme. What we need is a limited govt in a republic. Government's role should be limited to matters concerning all, but individual freedoms should be protected by rule of law.

Like the majority should not tell me whether I should not smoke pot, eat beef or pull the plug. In our country we let the govt handle all these stuff, where we elect a bunch of morons to decide what is good for us. Even for stuff which we could decide ourselves without harming others.

Democracy is flawed.

[ksameer1234]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

The problem with absolute democracy is that the will of the majority is imposed on the minority. A republic provides some respite where the rule of law reigns supreme. What we need is a limited govt in a republic.

While we have run way too off-topic just wanted to add here that India is indeed a republic, at least that's how constitution defines the nation. And India is a democratic republic wherein power is held by people democratically elected by citizens of nation.

Coming back to topic, old notes still seem to be surfacing!! I wonder if these are the 1% of the old currency which did not make way to the banks. Also, since it is known that there was a considerable size of fake currency, what happened to that? Does it also factor in the numbers published by RBI? If not, can we consider that fake currency in old denominations got wiped out completely?

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

In our country we let the govt handle all these stuff, where we elect a bunch of morons to decide what is good for us.

Democracy is flawed.

Off topic, but perhaps relevant. Democracy is flawed because WE let it be so by either not voting, or, more and more relevant these days, not standing for public office ourselves, starting from the ward level. We abdicate and the vacuum is filled by the lowest common denominator, all too often, that doesn't see itself making a career and a living in the manner that we do because it isn't capable of doing that.

Globally this is the problem with democracy and known to be so for decades now; but till now no one has found an alternative that has proven to be a better one.

The Swiss perhaps do it best by direct voting via compulsory referendum on all important matters, but the size/population there permits it.

As to corruption, there is only one thing in our power to do and that is to never ever pay a single paisa as a bribe - be the change you want to see, as the Mahatma said. When enough people do that, corruption will wither. Until then, it will remain a fact of life.

[dailydriver]

An offshoot of demonitisation was the increase in penalty charged by nationalised banks for non maintenance of minimum average balance in savings accounts. SBI, the largest of them all, had mandated a minimum balance ranging from ₹1,000 to 5,000 across various types of accounts, failing which ₹50/100 plus taxes would be deducted automatically. This was apparently because servicing an account took a lot of effort and money and the bank had to recover at least a part of the expense from the customers.

₹50/100 could be a nominal amount for an individual but what if there are lakhs of people contributing that amount to the bank's coffers?

An RTI query has revealed that SBI has realised a princely sum of ₹235 crores in the first quarter of the current fiscal, reports livemint.com.

“An amount of Rs235.06 crore has been realised from our 388.74 lakh accounts which did not maintain monthly average balance in the first quarter ended 30 June,” SBI said in its reply to an application filed by Neemuch-based RTI activist Chandrashekhar Gaud.

₹235 crores might be peanuts for the largest public sector bank in India. However, I am glad that the common man has contributed the same to bring the bank out of the quagmire it had found itself in after unwisely and unproductively financing the rich and the mighty who will remain immune to this latest trick; for their accounts will never go dry, come what may .

[Sawyer]

With the anniversary of this move to be celebrated as - hold your breath - anti Black money day, will we also be given a true and fair profit and loss account for what it has done for India?

Somehow, I doubt it.

[anb]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

With the anniversary of this move to be celebrated as - hold your breath - anti Black money day, will we also be given a true and fair profit and loss account for what it has done for India?

Somehow, I doubt it.

Given the merits and demerits of demonatisation better celebrate it as national fools day

[Sawyer]

Lol. While Mallya and others remain at large. With the connivance of those who are in power and/or who were in power.

It is so easy to take Indians for a ride. Educated or not.

[r_devakumar]

No posts on the anniversary? . If we ignore the all the hassles it created for a month, was there any long term benefit we are seeing now? There is no data which suggest that any significant impact on those who had / has black money. And also the push on digital money also seems short lived.

http://www.livemint.com/Industry/S0A...till-king.html

[Nav-i-gator]

Scene 1 (pre-demonetization): I was standing in line for billing at a clothing store in an upmarket mall. Ahead of me was a family, 5 -6 people who had bought bucket loads of clothes (i had only a shirt to buy). At their turn, the man (i assume the family head, of an affluent family, judging by the gold chains and rings the whole family was wearing) took out wafts of 1000 rupee notes and, as far as I could count, gave 55000 rupee, in cash, in two separate bills.

Scene 2 (during demonetization - December 2016): I was at a music concert (where the entry ticket was about 10,000 rupee), sponsored by the company I work with. Inside the concert venue, everything is sold on cash, and the event company had installed an ATM machine inside! And I saw a long snaking line of these affluent kids, sons and daughters of rich people, standing in line to extract cash from the ATM machine to buy liquor and food!

Call me sadistic, but I found pleasure being, for once, on a level playing field with people with a silver spoon.

And that's me, a middle class salaried person. Consider the joy people from lower economic strata would have got, looking at people having abundance of money being subjected to the same pain as we go through every day.

And the ruling party won elections in some of the poorest states after demonetization, confirming that I am not the only person getting pleasure from the agony of "ruling class" (read - people with money and hence, power).