[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

...
At Least, I have not received a 2000 note for some time now out of any ATM machine.

We're free to debate facts and argue opinions, but can we stop drawing conclusions from personal anecdotal evidence?

I just withdrew cash and 90% of it is 2000 rupee notes. I can't take that to mean anything, except the particular ATM I used has a specific denomination loaded into it.

[.sushilkumar]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

We're free to debate facts and argue opinions, but can we stop drawing conclusions from personal anecdotal evidence?

I just withdrew cash and 90% of it is 2000 rupee notes. I can't take that to mean anything, except the particular ATM I used has a specific denomination loaded into it.

Please re-read my post once again and if you still think i have put that as fact, I will request mods to delete it. I have just put across my experience & stated accordingly.

As for conclusions goes, there are already too many on this thread putting their dreams as facts convincingly. Let us keep our personal preferences aside on the forum.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

Could you explain above please. I am sure govt cannot falsify number of tax paying citizens and collected amount.

What was not clear in my post. The government claims that due to this heroic effort of demonetization, the number of tax payers have increased in this country. And usually going against their policy of not sharing concrete numbers and data, they did flaunt some figures for this which showed that the total number of tax payers have indeed increased.

But a simple google search will tell you that every year the number of tax payers increase, few years see a smaller increase and few years see a larger increase. So what is different about the same increment post demonetization which can be attributed to its success and not to the otherwise constant trend that is established over the years.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

....I have just put across my experience & stated accordingly.

I read it right the first time, thank you.

You pointed to reports of circulation of 2000 denomination and correlated it to your experience at ATMs, implying the reports were probably true. Correlation is not causation, as the cliche goes, unless a large enough sample can establish it. You may be right but we don't know, yet.

As for conclusions goes, there are already too many on this thread putting their dreams as facts convincingly. Let us keep our personal preferences aside on the forum.

Everyone has an opinion and has drawn a bunch of conclusions on what's clearly a controversial and divisive topic (you & I included), but we're all free to continue as long as rules aren't broken.

We won't need a forum or any discussion if there was no difference of opinion.

[vibbs]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

Govt wanted money to reach people faster so they went with 2000 notes. Going via reports, they are not issuing new notes & have stopped printing them with enough liquidity in market.

https://www.businesstoday.in/current...ry/266471.html

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/busi...in-august.html

At Least, I have not received a 2000 note for some time now out of any ATM machine.

Well here in Pune I have been receiving a lot of 2000 rupee notes. Infact recieved 4 of them yesterday when I withdrew 9900 exactly to ensure I do get some change as well!

[.sushilkumar]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

What was not clear in my post.

What was not clear in your post was number of scams. I am assuming we are looking for scams since current govt took over. Historically there are many books on these scams starting from 1947.

Originally Posted by drmohitg

But a simple google search will tell you that every year the number of tax payers increase, few years see a smaller increase and few years see a larger increase. So what is different about the same increment post demonetization which can be attributed to its success and not to the otherwise constant trend that is established over the years.

Source -
Income tax payee in AY 2014-15

For AY-2014-15, Total 3,65,13,034 Persons paid taxes. That almost Jumped to 6.84 crores in FY 2017-18 in just 3-4 years time frame. There may be a jump in tax payers each year but such steep jump is happening for first time. I could not find old stats but would be happy to see such stats anywhere since independence.

In a country where people take pride in not paying their dues to govt, this is commendable. Do note that numbers are provisional and are for previous Year. Could not find data for current year.

During FY 2017-18, 6.84 crore Income Tax Returns (ITRs) were filed with the Income Tax Department as compared to 5.43 crore ITRs filed during FY 2016-17, showing a growth of 26%. There has been a sustained increase in the number of ITRs filed in the last four financial years. As compared to 3.79 crore ITRs filed in F.Y. 2013-14, the number of ITRs filed during F.Y. 2017-18 (6.84 crore) has increased by 80.5%.

Source -http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelea...x?relid=178271

pls do not take any numbers from google and start presenting them as facts.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Everyone has an opinion and has drawn a bunch of conclusions on what's clearly a controversial and divisive topic (you & I included), but we're all free to continue as long as rules aren't broken.

Exactly my thoughts and have hence put that accordingly as my personnel experience but same time i was pained to see all presenting their same personnel thoughts & assumptions as facts. Are not people accusing govt of "killing democracy", "Scams" and what not based on their assumptions without any hard facts. That;s what i am against.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

....i was pained to see all presenting their same personnel thoughts & assumptions as facts. Are not people accusing govt of "killing democracy", "Scams" and what not based on their assumptions without any hard facts. That;s what i am against.

And you're doing the right thing by calling such instances out with your counter-arguments, so please do continue to add information to this thread.

As moderator Samurai likes to point out about forum debating, it's usually the silent spectators and often not the actual person(s) you're arguing with, that will take away more from your presented arguments.

The aim isn't to convince any single person, but to add relevant information for a wide audience to consume and draw their own conclusions.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

Please re-read my post once again and if you still think i have put that as fact, I will request mods to delete it. I have just put across my experience & stated accordingly.

As for conclusions goes, there are already too many on this thread putting their dreams as facts convincingly. Let us keep our personal preferences aside on the forum.

Dear .sushilkumar, I cannot but agree with the points you are putting forth asking members to support their over the top statements with facts instead of putting forth strong angry statements as God's truth. But you are whistling in the wind as I have discovered rather naively and painfully on other threads. This is as you know is social media where people can write with impunity because of immunity & anonymity. This encourages folks to fire off statements which are their personal angst thinking them to be facts. No amount of your tabling a debate will change their opinions or their tone or language. Those who are anti-NaMo will hate DeMo. Those who are pro- NaMo will shrug their shoulders and say little!

All, In my view DeMo was the brainchild of the PM, a pet project. It back fired as it didn't have the support of the bureaucracy and the planning & implementation was shoddy. In the pantheon of issues of national importance it deserves to be forgotten as a silly & costly failure. Five years from now it will be a footnote. The nation has moved on and may so should most of us.

[blacksport]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

Care to provide source of above Figure in bold else we are speculating or I Will assume some meme you might have seen.

1.6 lakh crore equals 10% of the total demonetised currency. I hope you don't need a source for the original amount, cos it was widely reported. I was being ballpark with that 1.6 lakh crore number as 90% was MY estimate of currency that would have came back which could have its own margin of error. To arrive at a more precise amount I should have multiplied with 9.3% and not 10, but then we would be getting lost in number crunching. This explanation, is assuming that you got the gist of my argument in my original post.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

All, In my view DeMo was the brainchild of the PM, a pet project. It back fired as it didn't have the support of the bureaucracy and the planning & implementation was shoddy. In the pantheon of issues of national importance it deserves to be forgotten as a silly & costly failure. Five years from now it will be a footnote. The nation has moved on and may so should most of us.

Couple of points.
One, I agree that it was a pet project of the PM. In fact, it was more of a whim of the PM, akin to "Lets try this". There are thousands of misinformed and not knowledgeable people who try there hands at something, not listening to those who know more and advise against it. He is just one of them with regard to this "pet project".
Second, the bureaucracy is petrified of the current government. I have rarely met with a bureaucrat over the past 4 years who has not acknowledged that he does as the "mantri" says in a tone that is mostly laced with derision, or just general fear. And these are career bureaucrats who have worked with many governments, some of who are acknowledged to be PITAs.
The implementation was shoddy because of the secrecy. And though the secrecy is understandable, the implementation is too. All the PM had to do was plan it out with a handful of associates, and come on TV to say "Let it be". How it was to be done was something he did not direct in any manner, as was evident in the constant fresh directives which were all reactive. It killed people? fine, lay it at the feet of the implementors. Didn't work as thought by the planner? Its someone else's fault.
Why doesn't Mr. NaMo come out and say that it was a perfect plan, but was let down everyone else down the line, if it is a fact?

Forgotten?
No going to be in a hurry.

I can just shake my head at the "impunity" and the "other issues of national importance" part of the comment.

[batish]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

What was not clear in your post was number of scams. I am assuming we are looking for scams since current govt took over.

You're correct. No scams! Actually there won't and cannot be. Why to have scams when you can increase the number of tolls & toll tax, (even after paying the road tax on the vehicle) Why to have a scam when you can legitimately set dynamic fuel pricing system and everyday little by little fuel price sets a new record everyday. Why to have scams when you can legitimately get electoral bonds and keep yourself out of RTI. I can't see any reason to have scams when you can get the money you want and don't even have to pay any tax on it. (Reference - Business Standard)

For AY-2014-15, Total 3,65,13,034 Persons paid taxes. That almost Jumped to 6.84 crores in FY 2017-18 in just 3-4 years time frame. There may be a jump in tax payers each year but such steep jump is happening for first time. I could not find old stats but would be happy to see such stats anywhere since independence.

pls do not take any numbers from google and start presenting them as facts.

What you're referring to is the number of ITR's filed, not the value of taxes collected. Almost 53% of the people who have filed returns are <= 3,50,000.
We know upto 2.5 Lakh there's no tax and after that its 5%. (AY 2015-16) Even if there is increase in collections from direct income why not reduce taxes on fuel?

[am1m]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

All, In my view DeMo was the brainchild of the PM, a pet project. It back fired as it didn't have the support of the bureaucracy and the planning & implementation was shoddy. In the pantheon of issues of national importance it deserves to be forgotten as a silly & costly failure. Five years from now it will be a footnote. The nation has moved on and may so should most of us.

I'm sorry sir, but it was an exercise that caused a lot of hardship and had several negative effects on the economy. If there weren't any concrete gains (for whatever reason- backing of the bureaucracy, implementation, etc.), that can be backed by hard data, then it deserves to be called out and criticized like any policy of national importance by ANY government. And considering that it was an economic step, hard data should be easier to get than in the case of other policy decisions that may or may not have effects that can be easily or directly measured.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

All, In my view DeMo was the brainchild of the PM, a pet project. It back fired as it didn't have the support of the bureaucracy and the planning & implementation was shoddy. In the pantheon of issues of national importance it deserves to be forgotten as a silly & costly failure. Five years from now it will be a footnote. The nation has moved on and may so should most of us.

If one does not have the foresight to understand the implications of his/her actions, then he/she should not be in a job that involves making decisions on behalf of others - especially when it affects their lives.

This is one blunder of mammoth proportion, and if it were me I would have been pondering about my suitability for the job.

[am1m]

At some level, I'm still hoping that some big fish who hoarded black money did fry. I'm still hoping that some good came out of the whole exercise of demonetization. But where is the proof? Numbers?

And I'm afraid that what I saw during the initial few days of demonetization looked quite the opposite. I had quit my job and was traveling during that period. Was at the Ellora caves when the announcement came through. So after that, went to Pune, since there are very few places on the way that will accept cards instead of cash.

Now, personally, I did not face any real difficulties. Trivial inconveniences that's all. But I saw the lines outside the ATMs and Post Offices. No big fish there, mostly local people who had to take time out of their jobs and taking care of children to wait in the hot sun. To take their own money out! I saw the scuffles when someone tried to cut ahead of the line. I also saw the good people of my country, some of whom volunteered to serve free vada pav and water to those in the line. To bring chairs out of their own homes for elderly people to sit while they waited. These good people deserved better from their government actions. To say that it's ok, it was a mistake and will be forgotten, or to say there have been bigger blunders (all of which are probably true) is probably doing those good people a disservice.

[.sushilkumar]

Originally Posted by blacksport

1.6 lakh crore equals 10% of the total demonetised currency. I hope you don't need a source for the original amount, cos it was widely reported.

I am just quoting your original post below in bold. hoping you are not the treasurer of ruling party.

Originally Posted by blacksport

A Jeopardy that just results in bad press, which people will forget in an year or two, but can bring some 1.6 lakh crores to the party funds is actually a gain.

Originally Posted by batish

You're correct. No scams! Actually there won't and cannot be. Why to have scams when you can increase the number of tolls & toll tax, (even after paying the road tax on the vehicle) Why to have a scam when you can legitimately set dynamic fuel pricing system and everyday little by little fuel price sets a new record everyday.

Well, Personally honesty comes into play when it comes to above. Major operators do under report the collections thus putting a dent in govt's revenue collection. I am sure they are doing something to plug this & making them more accountable.

For me a govt is govt irrespective of party. Govt of the day cannot backtrack on contracts given by previous governments. Having said that, We do see a improvement in road infra. At Least, we do not have any 2G or 3G or COAL Scams so far. No one can speak for future.

Originally Posted by batish

What you're referring to is the number of ITR's filed, not the value of taxes collected. Almost 53% of the people who have filed returns are <= 3,50,000.
We know upto 2.5 Lakh there's no tax and after that its 5%. (AY 2015-16) Even if there is increase in collections from direct income why not reduce taxes on fuel?

That's a reflection of compliance as well. Since we are talking of actual collections, Let me put stats available publicly below at 10.2 lakh crores. So i have more people to shoulder the burden of carrying the nation. Ultimately, those drawing non taxable income will also get added to tax net as their incomes increase. they won't be able to hide anymore since their old records are available with Tax men.

Direct axes in year 2018

Originally Posted by am1m

At some level, I'm still hoping that some big fish who hoarded black money did fry. I'm still hoping that some good came out of the whole exercise of demonetization. But where is the proof? Numbers?.

Many fishes have lost money. There is a reason why people are quoting "rafale" as "aircraft carrier". Specially the left and central wing elements. I reckon such big fishes should be publicly named & shamed. Unfortunately. we are not banana republic where public shaming is promoted.