[carboy]

Originally Posted by Gsynch

You first wanted an article on Lancet which i have shared, which is a peer-review study

That's my point - it's not an article published **by** Lancet, it's study published **in** Lancet.

Originally Posted by Gsynch

but you are not considering it, now you are taking few names from the entire list of authors to claim that it is written by BBM only which again is untrue. Here is the full list of authors and many of them are prestigious reseach insitutes like AIIMS, IMS, SRM, PGIs, etc.

I checked most of the names - they are either Bharat Biotech employees or ICMR employees (Bharat Biotech collaborated with ICMR on the vaccine) or they were people who conducted the trials on Covaxin. None of the authors of the study is an independent party. And it has to be like that because they are publishing a study & not an article.

[RadixLecti]

Originally Posted by Gsynch

I believe we are going OT here so my last message on this.

Well if you are determined to quote selectively to refute the obvious, i dont have anything else to add but this. You first wanted an article on Lancet which i have shared, which is a peer-review study but you are not considering it, now you are taking few names from the entire list of authors to claim that it is written by BBM only which again is untrue. Here is the full list of authors and many of them are prestigious reseach insitutes like AIIMS, IMS, SRM, PGIs, etc.

I shared the exact same link, I don't know why you are taking it so personally. As for refuting the obvious, the title of the paper literally says that it's a Phase 1 trial. Yes the results are generally positive. Yes it was funded by Bharat Biotech (of course, who else would fund it?):

Safety and immunogenicity of an inactivated SARS-CoV-2 vaccine, BBV152: a double-blind, randomised, phase 1 trial

Funding
Bharat Biotech International

Sure it must be peer reviewed if a journal like the Lancet has published it.

As for the actual article published by the Lancet on Covaxin (which, again, is available here - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...145-8/fulltext), it raises some questions.

One quote from that article:

COVAXIN's approval in India came before the company had finished recruiting for the drug's phase 3 trial. Given that there is no efficacy data for COVAXIN yet, some health workers “may not have confidence in COVAXIN and that is understandable”, said Vineeta Bal, immunologist and visiting faculty at the Indian Institute of Science Education and Research, Pune. “The government needs to put out all data, including for efficacy, for the sake of transparency and for building confidence of the people”, she said.
“The lack of data for COVAXIN leaves those who have been given it in an uncertain position regarding their status. The vaccine may work out to be safe and efficacious, but that would be owed more to good luck than to good government policy”, said Jammi Nagaraj Rao, a public health physician and epidemiologist.
Bharat Biotech and the Indian Council of Medical Research have not responded to requests for comment.

I don't have any kind of vendetta against Bharat Biotech. I've taken countless injections and tablets over the years and never questioned or even looked into their company or country of origin.
Speaking for myself, I just worry that scoring atmanirbhar brownie points trumped caution in giving the vaccine approval at the same time as Covishield. If Covaxin turns out to be no better or worse than Covishield, I would have no qualms about taking either.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by Gsynch

I believe we are going OT here so my last message on this.

No, the others are trying to point out the obvious fact that this is just phase 1 trial results (that happened back in July 2020) being published by Biotech employees (and possibly others) for peer review. A proper vaccine should have published phase 3 trials data at this stage of nationwide rollout which unfortunately is what our healthcare population is participating - without much of a choice.

Also news reports are (with clear reasons) putting up dubious headings for their articles while the content still (thankfully) talks about the Phase 1 trials. Atleast on this forum we can be clear on the understanding that

It's not a pat on the back for Biotech.

Lancet is not giving kudos to Biotech.

It's basically saying like if I post a glowing review of a unknown car in team bhp, we can't say that the TeamBHP (reviewers) team is giving kudos to the car (/model)
That's the point others are making (or were making initially).

Originally Posted by Gsynch

Seems prestigious research Journal Lancet has published an article and has given kudos to Covaxin. Safety is not a concern and efficacy is something that is being ascertained.

A shot in the arm for Homegrown BBL?

Trust you get the point

[Zen2001]

Calm down, all (armchair) scientists!
Just because "The Lancet" or any other highly reputed XYZ journal publishes something, it doesn't mean the gospel truth. Before taking up arms against each other, how many have actually understood the study design and it's potential shortcomings? And this I say not just about this particular study, bit of ANY other study published on Covid anywhere in the last 10 months. Run them through knowledgeable sources and they will be shred to pieces at multiple levels in the design and implementation and conclusions. Some studies are "modified" to achieve secondary end points when no primary conclusion can be drawn (eg: The Remdesivir Saga). And it goes on. I'm not saying they're all crap, but they're not gold standard either. Especially when the funder and researcher (& syndromes reviewer) are the same - major conflicts of interest, there.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

It's basically saying like if I post a glowing review of a unknown car in team bhp, we can't say that the TeamBHP (reviewers) team is giving kudos to the car (/model)

It's more like Anand Mahindra & his collaborators publishing a study of a Mahindra Car rather than you

Originally Posted by Zen2001

Calm down, all (armchair) scientists!
Just because "The Lancet" or any other highly reputed XYZ journal publishes something, it doesn't mean the gospel truth.

More importantly, this is a study of a phase 1 trial. Phase 1 trials are studies done with a very low number of people - a total of just 375 people in Covaxin's case. Phase 3 is the one where there are a relatively significant number - like 20,000-30,000. TBH, for all the vaccines (Moderna, Pfizer, AstraZeneca) even if they have finished Phase 3 & published it wouldn't have been enough in regular times - usually a new vaccine takes a few years for approval. But because of the emergency, countries around the world are compromising & allowing vaccines which have finished Phase 3 trials.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by carboy

... usually a new vaccine takes a few years for approval.

One report I read (sorry, no source) stated that, normally, there is a lot of dead time in vaccine development. A lot of time when stuff goes from one desk to another and waits its turn while that person gets on with something more important or immediately profitable. That was, it was said, cut out of the covid development, with the vaccine work going to the top of every pile.

Oh wait, yes, I recall that it was a pharma-company guy writing. On the one hand, that means real experience, and on the other, well, you know: it was a pharma-company guy writing.

[Abhi5868]

Just came across this thread, I got vaccinated on Monday 18th(yet to be a doctor but for some reason CG government's including med students under FLW). No side effects at all, apart from a slightly persistent pain at the site of injection for a day(for which I claim partly responsible). It had already been made clear that there won't be choices on offer, atleast for the initial nation wide vaccination drive. Overall more than 150 students have been vaccinated till now, no serious adverse effects seen.

Edit:- The 2nd dose is scheduled to be on the 28th day from the 1st one. Till then it has been made clear that the regular precautions should be complied with.

Originally Posted by Eddy

Which vaccine did you get?

Covishield

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by Abhi5868

It had already been made clear that there won't be choices on offer, atleast for the initial nation wide vaccination drive. Overall more than 150 students have been vaccinated till now, no serious adverse effects seen.

.

Which vaccine did you get?

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by Eddy

Which vaccine did you get?

He mentioned Covishield which I believe is manufactured by Serum Institute in India.

On a side note it looks like the corona virus has finally learnt from the other billions of virus present in a human body (Indians) the art of survival that is to adapt and not harm/kill the host, whose body is key for its survival. Maybe that’s the reason for falling numbers in India?

[Zen2001]

Originally Posted by carboy

usually a new vaccine takes a few years for approval. But because of the emergency, countries around the world are compromising & allowing vaccines which have finished Phase 3 trials.

I completely agree. Especially in India, where the mortality rate is 1%, which in reality will be even much lower accounting for those infections which were asymptomatic, mild, or unreported. A vaccine- no matter how proven, is unlikely to make a significant difference. It could be better used selectively in susceptible population subgroups - that too after adhering to proper trial duration in significantly larger and diverse population groups, to better judge safety and efficacy.

[Gsynch]

This is a very interesting reportage from a channel and anchor who brings in normally a very balanced perspective. Here they are talking about India's strategy on vaccination and leveraging their Made in India (some called it AtmaNirbhar) vaccines, VaccineMatri is the buzz word.

https://twitter.com/WIONews/status/1...048540161?s=20

There are a few doubting Thomases because of various reasons and compulsions but seems we are on the right track given the limited resources and especially when developed countries continue to gobble up all other vaccines e.g. Pfizer's, Moderna's for their selfish needs.

White WHO and international agencies have come out praising this approach, China et al obviously are rattled. Let us continue to wait and watch how it pans out in the next couple of months.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by Gsynch

This is a very interesting reportage from a channel and anchor who brings in normally a very balanced perspective.

WION is Zee's Channel owned by Rajya Sabha MP Subash Chandra.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by Gsynch

This is a very interesting reportage from a channel and anchor who brings in normally a very balanced perspective. Here they are talking about India's strategy on vaccination and leveraging their Made in India (some called it AtmaNirbhar) vaccines, VaccineMatri is the buzz word.

https://twitter.com/WIONews/status/1...048540161?s=20

There are a few doubting Thomases because of various reasons and compulsions.

Actually the doubting Thomases are because of the dubious situation with Bharat Biotech's Covaxin.

The shared link talks about Serum India's (or rather known as the Astra Zenca Oxford) vaccine being shipped out to Brazil and Morocco. There were also shipments of Covishield that went to our South East Asian neighbours like Bhutan.


Although there are news articles of promises of Covaxin vaccine being promised to other countries, I don't remember seeing any articles /news of actual shipment of Covaxin.

India is actually getting a lot of good name due to the large supplies of Covishield already been produced by Serum India, which hasn't been blocked by the country unlike other manufacturers in the developed world.

[one-77]

Well the wife and I received our first doses of the vaccine (Covishield) on the 21st. My sister had received hers on the 16th. All of us have been fine so far, except perhaps for the low grade fever that’s common after any vaccination, and so have all our colleagues who’ve received their first shots.

The thought process is that looking at available data, the odds of having a serious adverse event from the vaccine are much lower than the odds of complications from COVID. Having worked on the frontline for over nine months now, I certainly had made up my mind that I’ll be taking the jab.
I’ll advise the same to my family too, as and when the vaccine becomes available to them.

This is despite already having antibodies against the virus (though I’d never experienced any symptom).

But I do wish the government had waited a few weeks more till Covaxin’s safety and efficacy data has become available for public scrutiny. The hastened approval did really bring a lot of negative press both to the government and the vaccine itself.

[AseemYadav]

Being a doctor and having been at the receiving end of the pandemic for the last one year, these are some of my observations. Countries where public health measures were stringent and the public disciplined stemmed the first wave but soon saw a second one. Here in India Covid ran amok in the first wave itself. When we were having a lac cases a day the real case count was ten/twenty times that. If the cases did not rise post the Bharat milap of diwali, we are most certainly over with the peak. Case fatality has been low due to multiple corona virus strains prevalent in the country earlier and the younger age profile.