[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by proton

The general perception is that Europe is making decisions based on listening to expert opinion, whilst Britain and the US have blatantly rejected it (referring directly to the actions of both the leaders with bad hair).

That seems to be the general perception. Whilst Britain and the US seem to have just blundered into this whole thing. Although I would be careful in saying that in Europe decisions were based on listening to expert opinion.

Europe is 44 countries (and includes Russia), even the EU has 27 member states. And it would be only fair to say I have very limited knowledge on most of them, especially on how they deal with Corona.

Quite a number of governments have listened closely to what the science community has been saying. Part of the problem here is that science does not have all the answer.

The Dutch PM said it very well during his first speech to the nation some 6 months ago. We need to take very concrete actions, based on a very ambivalent and incomplete understanding of this virus.

Even to date, scientist are not necessarily fully aligned on some aspects of how to deal with this virus. For instance, in the Netherlands, our Dr. Fauci, a gentleman called Jaap van Dissel, is still saying that wearing masks by the public at large has a negligible effect on the spread of the virus. Even so, we have introduced, just a few weeks ago, a special law, mandating the wearing of masks in all public spaces. So is that science based law making, or political law making?

One of the problems is that science just doesn’t have all the answers. Which some people see as failure, or even conspiracy. Personally I think that is just how science work, it is not always as black and white as people believe or want it to be.

I think it is just the nature of science when you are trying to deal with a disaster of this magnitude. I also think that the scientific approach has been focussed way too much on the medical consequence. Of course, no mistake, you do need to understand in all details how this virus works.

But what was lacking completely, and still is, to bring other disciplines into the mix. It was very clear that human behaviour plays a very large part in how this virus spreads. But for the first six months here in the Netherlands there was not a single “human behaviour specialist” involved in advising the Dutch government. It was all virologist, microbiologist, all sorts of doctors and managers from hospitals. And interestingly, if you revisit some of the restrictions and measure put in place in the past, definitely had a very large human behaviour component in them, without any real knowledge and insights in the team that came up with these recommendations.

The same could be said for economics. As I mentioned before I believe many government imposed restrictions/lock down to curb contacts and thus ensuring hospitals were not overloaded. And in many countries, certainly initially that was at the time probably the most appropriate cause of action. However, many countries failed to follow through. What do your do after x number of weeks of lock down.

I think they should have developed different plans and take a much broader approach on how to look at this. We can more or less calculate how fewer people have died due to Corona related disease due to the lockdowns and other restriction. However, very few governments have taken a broader view and had science, at large, take a deeper look at what happens to the medical state of a population in some sort of prolonged type of lock down.

There is certainly evidence that shows that the long term effect of the corona measures on a populations (medical) well being is profound.

It is all very noble to say that you can’t put a price of a human life. But if millions of people's life and livelihood are effected even though they themselves are unaffected by the virus, I think you are missing something.

I would say many governments, especially those with leaders without weird hair, probably got their initial response pretty much spot on. You could argue, they should have been better prepared. But as they say, when the house is on fire, you need to concentrate on putting the fire out.

Where I think most government failed, is the follow through after the initial lock down. It was just an endless variation of the same theme, without any due consideration of other factors. (see above)

Even so, this virus never seizes to amaze me: Just this week I read an article in the Dutch press. We have a very Dutch tradition, called SinterKlaas. Sort of semi-mythical figure from a few centuries ago. He comes round people homes and gives presents to the children. It is very Dutch children's event. But adults love it to.

So an elderly care home arranged for a Sinterklaas to come around and visit the elderly folks. Just because that is what you do. At the time there were no formal restrictions/lock down. They took appropriate care, Sinterklaas kept his distance, wore a mask, he did not go into people individual apartments, stayed in the main hall. Sinterklaas had done and passed a corona test a few days earlier. But he must have picked up the virus shortly after his test. And his very brief, well orchestrated visit has turned into a major diaster. Already 117 of the resident have died, due to Corona, since his visit, most of them in the last 10 days. Almost half the staff is at home with Corona!

It just shows how deadly it can be under certain conditions. A real super spreader event as they say. Best intentions to bring a little joy to these folks in these difficult time and the result is total deadly disaster. Very very sad.

Jeroen

[phamilyman]

117 dead? I am feeling like throwing up here - may I sadly remind everyone to please set up a UVC air sanitizer right next to any senior citizens who may deal with outsiders? https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/route...ml#post4940926 (How to enjoy safe road-trips during Covid-19)

my trusens Z1000 is right next to my mother who at 75 with severe diabetes is dependent on the maid.

[proton]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Quite a number of governments have listened closely to what the science community has been saying. Part of the problem here is that science does not have all the answer.

Jeroen

I have figured out a rough and ready method to critique the responses of different countries, which may help others too, since there is some ambiguity, many here posting comments about other countries, both favouring as well as criticising the same single country. It has some parallels to how we view the way individuals behave when the pandemic calls for them to change, adapt.

Generally, countries react by viewing the virus from a medical aspect, ie. involves listening to scientists. However, saving lives often involves crippling the economy. So there is also a need to side with the economists.

So, countries should react like I do, when I isolate myself to avoid being infected and infecting others, even though it imposes a financial burden on myself and others, because I shut down my businesses. But I can do this because I have some savings, which I hope will help me and my employees wait out the virus.

The bottom-line is that both countries and individuals need to act as responsibly as they can, based on how much financial reserves they have.

Sweden is a very strange case. Their reaction to the virus is very opposite to how they responded to the refugee crisis. They considered they had the resources to absorb any amount of refugees. Their experts, in other words, told them the influx would not affect them adversely in any way, even sociologically. By the way, political leaders have very little say in Sweden, most decisions are made by the bureaucracy, manned by professionals. However, the refugee numbers exceeded expectations, and finally did begin to affect the country, and it had to stop accepting more people. Reserves couldn't match the problem. Others have criticised Sweden for being idealistic, but their response matched their worldview, was consistent with their progressive image.

In the case of Covid-19, the experts decided that the virus could be handled by aiming for herd immunity. Economical considerations, apart from scientifically assessing the health risk as minor, actually influenced this decision. The results are quite evident for all to see. However, while many see the deaths per million (the pop of Bangalore is more than Sweden!) as unacceptable, Tengell still states events turned out as planned.

I think the scientific assessment in Sweden was bad, and they could have erred on the side of preserving health, considering they are considered a rich country.

The UK ignored science and totally considered economic impact, which is bad, considering they are also relatively wealthy. We see that also in the US, where Trump ran the country like a corporation, a business organisation, cutting down costs incurred by soft power, ecological considerations and human rights obligations, so that he could run for re-election with an economic victory to boast about. Too bad(!) the virus dethroned him.

[vinu_h]

Can salt water be used as a sanitiser ? Came across a few articles on this. LINK & LINK. Sure there are more.

Personally, I am sick of alcohol based gels and have been looking for a more natural & skin friendly option.

[Samurai]

Coronavirus death toll triples in Russia after government admits to downplaying COVID-19 outbreak

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-...-toll/13018842

When will China admit to the same act?

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by vinu_h

Can salt water be used as a sanitiser ? Came across a few articles on this. LINK & LINK. Sure there are more.

Personally, I am sick of alcohol based gels and have been looking for a more natural & skin friendly option.

Interesting findings.
Salt solution has been used to clean surfaces and we even gargle our throats during cold etc. Here it says the water needs to evaporate for salt to encompass and pierce and inactivate the virus. So you need to have a layer of salt left behind for it to be effective.

If the masks have a salt layer coating, one needs to make sure its kept dry not to wash it off. Also how long does the salt layer adhere to the mask surface ?

[RavSam]

Originally Posted by vinu_h

Personally, I am sick of alcohol based gels and have been looking for a more natural & skin friendly option.

Home made soap water handwash with napkin or tissue?

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by vinu_h

... Personally, I am sick of alcohol based gels and have been looking for a more natural & skin friendly option.

Simple... Soap!

If you go back to early pages of this thread, when we were all learning to live with this thing, you can find it discussed. The virus has a fatty "skin," which is destroyed by soap. There is no need for anything else: alcohol based solutions are for portable, easy, public use when you may not have easy access to soap and clean water.

[vinu_h]

Originally Posted by RavSam

Home made soap water handwash with napkin or tissue?

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Simple... Soap!

If you go back to early pages of this thread, when we were all learning to live with this thing, you can find it discussed. The virus has a fatty "skin," which is destroyed by soap. There is no need for anything else: alcohol based solutions are for portable, easy, public use when you may not have easy access to soap and clean water.

I am referring to when we aren't at home. Still, soap takes away essential oils that are on the surface of the skin.

I am not a 'HAND' model but we end up sanitising several times when we go out and rampant use of it is a recent thing. Skin does absorb some or all of it & we do not yet know it's long term effects. If someone knows of a more natural way like for example(hypothetical) water+turmeric+salt+coconut oil or something, please share.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by vinu_h

If someone knows of a more natural way like for example(hypothetical) water+turmeric+salt+coconut oil or something, please share.

These are as good as snake oil and unproven. As of now there are only three things that are proven to destroy the virus. Heat > 60 deg C, Alcohol and simple plain soap. Among all three plain soap is the least harmful.

No need for medicated hand wash. Antiseptics will have no effect on the virus. If we use Dettol or Savlon, they can protect only from bacteria.

Wear a pair of gloves as much as possible, and use water+soap whenever you take them off. If unable to access water, only then use a little sanitizer.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by Gansan

Wear a pair of gloves as much as possible, and use water+soap whenever you take them off.

What is the point of wearing Gloves? The virus cannot get into the body through the hands. Only if you touch the virus with your hand & then take your hand to your nose/mouth. That can happen even if you are wearing gloves, so I don't see what is the point of wearing gloves.

[Thad E Ginathom]

You can spend as much money as you want on the soap. Buy some fancy skin-care stuff... as long as it is, underneath everything else, actual soap.

In one way, we are lucky: there are two simple and low-cost ways of killing corona virus on the skin. One of them is to be found in almost every house anyway.

Stick with it for now, and hope that the days of covid are numbered and not too many.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by carboy

What is the point of wearing Gloves?

The point is one touches ANYTHING at all after removing the gloves and sanitizing the hands. I mentioned gloves because he mentioned about sensitive skin.

The gloves can help if one has sensitive skin. The sanitizer can be sprayed on it while driving or riding and whatever you touch - steering wheel/handle bar/switches become sanitized. Even if taking cab or public transport.

I don't wear gloves. I will never touch myself anywhere above chest till I cleanse my hands when outside. I carry a small bottle of sanitizer in my pocket. After getting off my car or bike, the first thing I do is clean my hands. Then only remove my helmet or take out anything from my pocket, or even press the door bell of my home.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Gansan

The gloves can help if one has sensitive skin. The sanitizer can be sprayed on it while driving or riding and whatever you touch - steering wheel/handle bar/switches become sanitized. Even if taking cab or public transport.

Good point. I never wear gloves except for gluing! But then, I am not going out much either, and quite able to handle the amount of sanitising.

[Zen2001]

Isn't this thread getting overhyped, boring, repetitive and really nowhere now? Or is it just me? Even the so called mutant strain seems overhyped. People are making merry all day till 11 pm as if it's just another (holi)day and here we are!