[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by giri1.8

Hard to understand this obsession with strict lockdown. It almost feels like people in power flexing their muscles to show who is the boss..

Well, I am in the Netherlands currently into our second lock down. Our hospitals are overflowing with Corona patients or regular wards and the ICU. A lot of normal and regular procedures are scaled down to accommodate all these Corona cases. Currently three individuals out of these thousands in hospital are close relations to us. One is on the ICU and is not expected to make it. Both her children are down with Corona as well, one of them admitted to hospital this afternoon.

If folks can’t or won’t socially distance by themselves, wear mask where appropriate and keep washing their hands etc, the only alternative is a lockdown. Just about all countries in this pandemic have used lockdown to try and prevent an overflow of corona patients into their hospitals.

I just can’t even begin to understand where your remarks are coming from. Well, I will admit I have some thoughts, but the moderators would likely remove such comments.

Originally Posted by RSR

The Brits (English & Welsh in particular) were right in wanting to control the movement of people into their island country.

It was the bloated Brussels bureaucrats who wanted completely open borders and unfettered movement of people across them, didn't they? Look at 'em shameless hypocrites now!

The UK was never part of the open border (Former Schengen Treaty) to start with anyway. You always needed to go through passport control. Going into the UK or coming out of the UK into the EU. Brexit will just mean the British can’t join the EU que anymore! They need to join the “all other passports” que.

Actually, a number of EU countries decided amongst themselves, each on its own who could move across their border. All along at any point in time they were in complete control of their respective borders. And in this case, several EU countries closed their borders literally overnight. Something no Brexiteer thought was possible. Did I mention most Brexiteers are pretty thick when it comes to factual knowledge on the EU?

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Are you a Daily Mail reader?

(Yes, moderators... I suppose that is a personal attack )

You beat me to it! I don’t think it can be a personal attack if it states the obvious? Whether in practice or intent.

Jeroen

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by giri1.8

Was actually thinking about new restrictions imposed in Mumbai while making my post, should have made it

Originally Posted by RSR

The Brits... .

I see no harm in making a little money off the enemy, at least they did not pass it off as some sort of patriotic speech, and even the Supreme Court has told us to ignore anything that we find hurtful

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Are you a Daily Mail reader?

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Well, I am in the Netherlands currently into our second lock down.

Jeroen

It's not about the virus at all over here in India, it's all about politics, or so I believe. End of the year gatherings have always been bitterly opposed by certain groups and these lockdowns are meant to please these very people.

[giri1.8]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I just can’t even begin to understand where your remarks are coming from. Well, I will admit I have some thoughts, but the moderators would likely remove such comments.
Jeroen

Have clarified in my reply that my comments were about how politicians in India are reaction about it. Not sure why my comments would be hard to understand for local people.

My state CM told us no chance of lockdown after the initial one was over, guess what, within few days strict lockdown was again imposed without any time to stock up on essentials.

We had one of the longest lockdown of anywhere in the world, now evething is open even though there is no vaccination or any drastic improvements in treatment.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by RSR

Makes sense!

Suburban trains are not air-conditioned. With open windows and even doors (as is the case in India), the risk is less (as long as there is no over-crowding) compared to the air-conditioned Chennai Metro coaches.

When the Metro began regular service a while back, I don't understand what took so long to run normal suburban train services.

What is the boundary limits of being under crowded, crowded, and over crowded?
How will it be enforced?

Originally Posted by Jeroen

If folks can’t or won’t socially distance by themselves, wear mask where appropriate and keep washing their hands etc, the only alternative is a lockdown. Just about all countries in this pandemic have used lockdown to try and prevent an overflow of corona patients into their hospitals.

I just can’t even begin to understand where your remarks are coming from. Well, I will admit I have some thoughts, but the moderators would likely remove such comments.

How would you rate a lockdown that comes into effect everyday at 11 pm and vanishes at 6 am.
Giving full freedom to people to do whatever they want, however they want in the "unlocked daytime" hours.

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by alpha1

How would you rate a lockdown that comes into effect everyday at 11 pm and vanishes at 6 am.
Giving full freedom to people to do whatever they want, however they want in the "unlocked daytime" hours.

Having been involved in its enforcement (being a Govt servant) while wholeheartedly cursing the thoughtlessness and haste with which these measures are brought about in my home state, I would call it Comedy Nights with People!

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Well, I am in the Netherlands currently into our second lock down. .....
If folks can’t or won’t socially distance by themselves, wear mask where appropriate and keep washing their hands etc, the only alternative is a lockdown. Just about all countries in this pandemic have used lockdown to try and prevent an overflow of corona patients into their hospitals.

Thanks for repeatedly bringing much needed European perspective in this thread. Anybody with a rudimentary understanding of statistics (who understand terms like 'adjusted for population' or 'per-million') would recognize that Western European countries like Belgium, Spain, Italy, UK etc are unfortunately having the worst of the pandemic (and not India or US which are having the high absolute numbers).

My main grouse against lockdowns, mini or otherwise, is that they are after the fact. Virus spreads --> Tests show high contagion --> Lockdowns are announced --> People crowd to beat deadlines --> Virus spreads more --> People stay indoors with infected people --> Virus spreads more. This has been the cycle on and on.

Politicians introduce lockdowns and restrictions just to show they are doing something.

Check this comparison between Texas and California. Given their socio-political background, obviously the states take two different approaches to Covid, yet the Covid curves are similar.



Source

Western Europe had it really bad in the first wave. They are having it bad now again, even countries like Germany which controlled it well in the first wave. By all accounts compared to rest of the world and the US Red states, Western Europeans are supposed to be more educated and more disciplined, more so when they got affected the 7 months back.

Makes one think, right?

The virus just gonna virus. It is human hubris to think that interventions will prevent spread.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Valid points made.

Whether it is sleeping hours in India, pubs up to 10pm in UK, or any other seemingly random restriction, there have been useless restrictions worldwide. They do nothing to stop the virus: they do a great deal to confuse people and create loss of faith in leadership.

I couldn't deny, also, that the removal of large numbers of people from the streets might, ahem, be quite convenient to some people in power. Mind you, it is hard for me to think it wise to join such groups, even though the cause may be important and sincere.

Had to get various business done the other day. Couldn't help noticing the difference between myself and wife. Me, nervous of what I think it's a real risk: mask up, get in, get done, get out. Wife: mask, yes, but then... She accepts a cup of tea. What to do?

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

I couldn't deny, also, that the removal of large numbers of people from the streets might, ahem, be quite convenient to some people in power.

Or to introduce a lot of people into the streets also . Back in July in the US while there were Covid related restrictions on a lot of activities, there were no restrictions on black-lives-matter protests.

Covid is a convenience for politicians of all hues

[Thad E Ginathom]

My thoughts were international, and certainly included the BLM demonstrations. The politician who tried to suppress them in USA is not even interested in covid.

[Chetan_Rao]

Well, Karnataka's night curfew, originally for 10PM - 6AM scheduled to begin yesterday, then rescheduled for 11PM - 5AM to begin tonight, has just been withdrawn, apparently after 'public outcry'!

I'd love to know what caused the sudden bout of sensitivity to public demand, and who exactly raised the outcry to begin with.

[venkyhere]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Well, Karnataka's night curfew, originally for 10PM - 6AM scheduled to begin yesterday, then rescheduled for 11PM - 5AM to begin tonight, has just been withdrawn, apparently after 'public outcry'!

I'd love to know what caused the sudden bout of sensitivity to public demand, and who exactly raised the outcry to begin with.

I wonder how many zero's were present in the "outcry" ?

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Check this comparison between Texas and California. Given their socio-political background, obviously the states take two different approaches to Covid, yet the Covid curves are similar.

Attachment 2096551

Source

Western Europe had it really bad in the first wave. They are having it bad now again, even countries like Germany which controlled it well in the first wave. By all accounts compared to rest of the world and the US Red states, Western Europeans are supposed to be more educated and more disciplined, more so when they got affected the 7 months back.

Currently the USA is ranked number 10 worse country in Corona Death per one million population https://www.statista.com/statistics/...n-inhabitants/







So that means there are about 140 countries doing better than the USA! And only 9 worse.

I don’t think you can draw any conclusions from comparing one state to the next. Or even one country to the next. The above statistics give a stark view of reality and an absolute (sad) result. And

There are many different factors that come into play in each country, state or region. I don’t think that anybody was prepared for this and all countries had to make up their thoughts, policies as they muddled on. History a couple of years down the line, might be able to shed some light as to what the most effective measures and approaches are likely to be. I also think that what might work in one country, might not work in another country for a wide variety of reasons.

And consequently the effectiveness of any measures is very different. Many countries and regions have tried to avoid lock downs as long as they could. But at some point in time, within a country, a region, or a state, you might just not have any other options left, or will overload the hospitals.

I must admit, I don’t believe in the theories that lockdowns are initiated to show who is the boss. It is probably in many cases a last resort actions. Which is, if you like testimony to the fact that the respective government did not do enough, did not take appropriate actions, trying to prevent getting to the stage where a lockdown becomes just about unavoidable. (such as in the Netherlands at the moment)

I don’t know if I would like to call Europeans more educated. For at least two reasons, it sounds a bit elite like, but also these days the level of education across all of Europe varies considerably.

Europeans are not necessarily disciplined at all. Again it varies a lot, country from country. I don’t think anybody would have called the Italians particularly disciplined. Whereas most people would call the Germans very disciplined. Italy is number 3 on this list, Germany number 52. But Germany is back into troubled water again right now.

So if anything there is simply no silver bullet solution. Same approach, might get you very different results country to country.

Jeroen

[proton]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

So if anything there is simply no silver bullet solution. Same approach, might get you very different results country to country.

Jeroen

The general perception is that Europe is making decisions based on listening to expert opinion, whilst Britain and the US have blatantly rejected it (referring directly to the actions of both the leaders with bad hair). At present, even the experts in Europe are testing different levels of restrictions, and their observance, whilst keeping an eye on hospital capacities, as you mentioned.

The problem of the rejection of Europe by the UK, Brexit, has been described as a fight to regain sovereignty. I see it as the UK sticking to its antiquated Laws, which are only slightly better amended than our own in India, which is only natural, since we have inherited both our codes and our reformatory inertia from them! The World Bank has told us we need to improve our consumer protection regulations (specifically with regard to safe purchase of property: land), to make economic progress. Right now, distrust of protection provided is hobbling the economy. Ditto the UK. I know of Brits preferring to buy used superbikes (not so much LHDrive cars) in Germany, because the seller is held to the same standards as new vehicle sellers, with regard to being responsible for not hiding faults. Also the consumer is taken for a ride in terms of pricing in the UK, especially when purchasing vehicles. Government and vendors have a field day in adding taxes and margins. No wonder car sellers call the UK "Treasure Island". Also licensing in Europe is very strict: I just read you need a Bachelor's degree to bake bread in Germany. Whilst any cowboy with a bag of tools can service your living room gas heater in Britain.

No wonder the UK want their sovereignty back. They want to go back to unregulated business practices. We may see Vodafone and Cairns type situations there soon, if Brexit happens!

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

So that means there are about 140 countries doing better than the USA! And only 9 worse.

I don’t think you can draw any conclusions from comparing one state to the next. Or even one country to the next. The above statistics give a stark view of reality and an absolute (sad) result.

Also data gathering quality varies widely from country to country either due to infrastructure or attitude of the Govt. Proud nationalist as I am, being from the healthcare sector I know the unwritten edicts that have been put out by certain State Govt's in India with regard to reporting deaths by CV19. While it seems death per million in India is indeed quite low for reasons we don't know I'm not sure all the deaths have been honestly reported.

There are many different factors that come into play in each country, state or region. I don’t think that anybody was prepared for this and all countries had to make up their thoughts, policies as they muddled on. History a couple of years down the line, might be able to shed some light as to what the most effective measures and approaches are likely to be. I also think that what might work in one country, might not work in another country for a wide variety of reasons.

And consequently the effectiveness of any measures is very different. Many countries and regions have tried to avoid lock downs as long as they could. But at some point in time, within a country, a region, or a state, you might just not have any other options left, or will overload the hospitals.

+1

Originally Posted by proton

The problem of the rejection of Europe by the UK, Brexit, has been described as a fight to regain sovereignty. I see it as the UK sticking to its antiquated Laws, which are only slightly better amended than our own in India, which is only natural, since we have inherited both our codes and our reformatory inertia from them! The World Bank has told us we need to improve our consumer protection regulations (specifically with regard to safe purchase of property: land), to make economic progress. Right now, distrust of protection provided is hobbling the economy. Ditto the UK. I know of Brits preferring to buy used superbikes (not so much LHDrive cars) in Germany, because the seller is held to the same standards as new vehicle sellers, with regard to being responsible for not hiding faults. Also the consumer is taken for a ride in terms of pricing in the UK, especially when purchasing vehicles. Government and vendors have a field day in adding taxes and margins. No wonder car sellers call the UK "Treasure Island". Also licensing in Europe is very strict: I just read you need a Bachelor's degree to bake bread in Germany. Whilst any cowboy with a bag of tools can service your living room gas heater in Britain.

No wonder the UK want their sovereignty back. They want to go back to unregulated business practices. We may see Vodafone and Cairns type situations there soon, if Brexit happens!

You clearly have a bee in your bonnet about Britain don't you? We can start a thread on Brexit. We can even start one on the stupidities of the British but this thread is on Coronavirus last when I checked. Having built a successful medium sized business in the UK and another in two EU countries I will say I'd rather live and run businesses in the UK under British laws than in Europe under EU laws and its million rules that seek to control everything right to (literally) the height of the men's urinal. The EU, I believe have too many laws. The British too have their laws but when needed they interpret with a healthy dose of common sense to meet the situation on the ground while staying with the spirit of the enactment. Having worked in a highly regulated industry I had several opportunities to witness this. This is not to say the British don't have asinine bureaucrats but I do think you are pouring bile in excess. Cheers.

[proton]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

You clearly have a bee in your bonnet about Britain don't you? .

The impression I'm getting and which I tried to communicate, using Brexit as a parallel, is that the UK doesn't like regulation, is conspiracy paranoid, and tends to ignore expert opinion.

There may be controversy about how effective regulation is in getting consumers a fair deal, seeing how Google and Microsoft are being scrutinized in "progressive" countries for monopolistic and other practices that exploit their first mover advantage, but I believe there should always be checks and balances. Experts who always seem to favour business should be regulated. Governments, who ostensibly favour end users, should be monitored. Europe seems to be putting into place these mechanisms. The shambolic reactions to the pandemic by the UK and the US in ignoring expert advice only demonstrate the ineffectiveness of "small government". European governments were giving warnings of impending lockdowns much in advance.

Britain has been SEEN to react in panic: just go through the everchanging attitudes to the virus by Johnson. Talk about management by crisis. I don't know about you, but I just don't appreciate the unmindful approach of the UK. Apparently, the result of being mean minded. Having lived there for sometime, I can tell you that this is not representative of most Brits. They are, for the most part, better than that.