[drive_angry]

The government might resume domestic flight operations from May-25 (Monday)

Source:

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/coro...rnment-2232231

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/in...i-5293021.html

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/...974443620.html

[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by Aditya_Bhp

Lockdown is not an European model. Europe never went into full lockdown, as they had the capacity to handle cases.

Not quite correct. Italy and Spain as well as France went into full lockdowns. They even prohibited people from stepping out for exercise towards the end as their numbers kept rising. As for the rest of your points, yes, it is possible but we would need at least a decade to solve these issues if we tackled them on a war footing and substantial resources were dedicated to it. For instance, we can build small, simple but decent quality flats along with basic amenities like parks for poor labourers like China has done. The government can build them or have it done by the private sector. This would generate a lot of employment and help improve the economy. These flats can then be rented out cheaply at say 2000 Rs a month along with a ban on any kind of shanty construction. We would need millions of them so you can see the amount of willpower and resources needed. It would be unpopular with the poor initially as they would lose their shanties but at the end, their lives would be better as they would have toilets, bathrooms, running water, electricity and a safe play area for their kids. The government can provide transportation from these clusters to industrial areas via buses, metro or trains. These can be built in remote or undesirable areas to keep the costs down and the government could subside the remaining costs. This should be the minimum standard to aim for. Until we have such basic facilities, you can’t expect the lockdown to succeed.

[ashokrajagopal]

Originally Posted by Lobogris

For instance, we can build small, simple but decent quality flats along with basic amenities like parks for poor labourers like China has done. The government can build them or have it done by the private sector. This would generate a lot of employment and help improve the economy. These flats can then be rented out cheaply at say 2000 Rs a month along with a ban on any kind of shanty construction. We would need millions of them so you can see the amount of willpower and resources needed. It would be unpopular with the poor initially as they would lose their shanties but at the end, their lives would be better as they would have toilets, bathrooms, running water, electricity and a safe play area for their kids. The government can provide transportation from these clusters to industrial areas via buses, metro or trains. These can be built in remote or undesirable areas to keep the costs down and the government could subside the remaining costs. This should be the minimum standard to aim for.

It's a lofty idea, and certainly must be discussed in the long run.

But then, essentially right now this is building a working class satellite town for upper class city and keeping them there and provide methods for them to come and work in the city.
In other words, that borders on institutionalizing a class divide with an actual geographic divide.
To know how it will end up, just imagine a flood or a drought -- where will the resources get allocated to ?

I can already picture the contrast in how the parks, schools and hospitals will look in the satellite town vs the actual city it serves.

[Aditya_Bhp]

Originally Posted by Lobogris

Until we have such basic facilities, you can’t expect the lockdown to succeed.

Lockdown was successful in states where people adhered to govt instructions. Say Kerala, the 1st case was reported here, and even was leading the charts initially, by the end of the third lockdown, Kerala had just under 15 active cases. Even before the central govt instructed lockdown, Kerala had already gone into full scale lockdown.

During the 1st lockdown, no one unnecessarily came out, the police also ensured the same. Roads were blocked and offices shut. Yet, no one faced any shortage of food and other essentials. Infact, food was plenty as govt started community kitchens, from where food was home delivered to the poor. Hospitals and banks were functioning as per SOPs.

As the days passed, cases reduced, recoveries started rising. And by the end of lockdown 3, Kerala was able to return to near normalcy. Now, offices are working, and people are happily working, buses and taxis have started plying. Infact roads are crowded now. But even then, people adhere to social distancing.

Cases are rising, mostly because people are coming from outside the state, but even the govt has ensured that they are quarantined at hotels or hospitals or home, and do not come in contact with the general public. So the current infections being recorded are all quarantined people and do not pose a threat to their family or others. So we have seen how a poor, densely populated state was able to manage this. If there is a will, there is a way. Unfortunately the will wasn't there, neither from the government nor from the people.

Now, all what is happening is that potential carriers are being 'exported' from urban areas to the villages. These villages won't have medical facilities to take care and deaths will start rising and all will start panicking. The very act of transporting people is causing infections to spread. One person in a train compartment can at least infect 10 others and the chain goes on. This is why lockdown was needed to ensure it doesn't spread to others and especially to rural India.

Anyway, as of now it looks like that the govt has given up. We had a proper lockdown when there were some 500 cases in total, now when we are reporting 6000 cases per day and 100s dying daily, people are travelling across the country, and worsening the situation. Healthcare facilties in cities like Mumbai and Ahmedabad have collapsed already. Don't expect the doctors and nurses working there to work for months. They are humans too. Its our responsibility to ensure we do not overburden the health care system, so stay home even after the lockdown ends.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by Aditya_Bhp

During the 1st lockdown, no one unnecessarily came out, the police also ensured the same. Roads were blocked and offices shut. Yet, no one faced any shortage of food and other essentials. Infact, food was plenty as govt started community kitchens, from where food was home delivered to the poor. Hospitals and banks were functioning as per SOPs.

Originally Posted by Aditya_Bhp

Anyway, as of now it looks like that the govt has given up. We had a proper lockdown when there were some 500 cases in total, now when we are reporting 6000 cases per day and 100s dying daily, people are travelling across the country, and worsening the situation. Healthcare facilties in cities like Mumbai and Ahmedabad have collapsed already. Don't expect the doctors and nurses working there to work for months. They are humans too. Its our responsibility to ensure we do not overburden the health care system, so stay home even after the lockdown ends.

Are you referring to Kerala or the whole country? In the case of the country, our leadership put faith in this NITI Aayog chart and were biding time for the virus to go away from the country borders. Since the epidemic hasn't gone as per plan, they might have as well given up. So nothing explains what has changed in May, compared to April 2020 that we are seeing the 'lockdown relaxing', which is being projected as a benefit to citizens (feature, not a bug).


Defence Ministry patents low-cost PPE developed by Navy to move towards its mass production

"The low-cost PPE has been developed by a doctor of Indian Navy, posted at the recently created Innovation Cell at Institute of Naval Medicine (INM), Mumbai. A pilot batch of PPEs has already been produced at Naval Dockyard in Mumbai,"

The PPE developed by the Navy is made of a special fabric which affords a high level of protection along with "high breathability" as against other PPEs available in the market and is, therefore, more suitable for use in hot and humid weather conditions as prevalent in India, the Navy said.

It said the technology has also been tested and validated by a testing lab approved by the Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR).

Eligible firms, the Navy said, are being identified by the NRDC for taking up licensed production of the PPEs on a fast track.

A laudable effort from Navy. It would have helped if this planned & executed within Lockdown 1.0 time, which I think was time bought by Govt to ramp up healthcare facilities.

[Aditya_Bhp]

Originally Posted by msdivy

Are you referring to Kerala or the whole country? In the case of the country, our leadership put faith in this NITI Aayog chart and were biding time for the virus to go away from the country borders.

I am referring to the states. The states are in the forefront in the fight against Covid19. The central government acts like a guide, and India being a federal republic, states are allowed to take independent decisions. Some states have done very well to limit the spread. Some have messed it up.

The NITI Aayog chart was poorly done. There was no way cases would go to zero, even Australia and South Korea reports fresh cases. They have grossly misunderstood the pandemic. Mostly due to under reporting by China and the poor testing that hid the cases.

But we can't blame them too, this is a new virus, with no studies and active treatment available, no one can actually predict the extent of spread. No one predicted in February that USA will be leading the charts with a huge margin. So India, better be careful, otherwise we might end up losing precious lives.

[ZenMaster]

I have a feeling that people are having a false sense of security due to the easing of the lockdown, at least where I currently reside even though it's one of the three major Covid-19 Hotspots in the country and infamous for having a disproportionatelyhigh number of deaths. People are behaving as if the small piece of cloth (aka. cloth masks made from a single layer of what looks like Bedsheet cloth) can protect them from everything.

They seem to have forgotten about social distancing, and the need to reduce touching surfaces. Everyone's using lifts( keep in mind that that buildings in our campus are only 3 stories high and almost everyone is very young). I see them absent mindedly touching the buttons with their fingers and 8 people filing into the lift for going up 2 floors!

We Indians have a big problem, we dont care for anything until it reaches inside our homes. Until then " its somebody's problem...why should I worry."

I understand the need to reopen businesses and offices and its necessary if we don't want our society to go into chaos. But why dont people have the sense to at least take the small effort that is necessary to reduce their exposure while going about their lives. That too in a hotspot where the disease is spreading like wildfire.

[AltoLXI]

Originally Posted by msdivy

In the case of the country, our leadership put faith in this NITI Aayog chart and were biding time for the virus to go away from the country borders. Since the epidemic hasn't gone as per plan, they might have as well given up.

Reading this article in DH does not inspire much confidence in the way things are being handled.

"It was clearly a ridiculous graph from an epidemiological sense. Moreover, the government didn't say how they arrived at such a graph. No information on the methods used was shared in the public domain" said V Guttal, a professor at the Indian Institute of Science, Bengaluru and one of the scientists involved in modelling the progression COVID-19 pandemic in India.

"The Integrated Disease Surveillance Project was created for times like this but they are nowhere. The Indian Council of Medical Research is doing something it doesn't have the expertise to do. With an entire epidemiology institute at the disposal of ICMR, outbreak predictions are being done by a civil servant and a paediatrician with no training in epidemiology. It's a grand mismanagement," said a senior biomedical scientist who doesn't wish to be identified.

"The (infamous) graph actually reflects how the government's interest in COVID-19 as a public health issue dwindled. After May 16 it’s all economy," he added.

[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

But then, essentially right now this is building a working class satellite town for upper class city and keeping them there and provide methods for them to come and work in the city. In other words, that borders on institutionalizing a class divide with an actual geographic divide.To know how it will end up, just imagine a flood or a drought -- where will the resources get allocated to ? I can already picture the contrast in how the parks, schools and hospitals will look in the satellite town vs the actual city it serves.

How many resources are currently provided in shanties where people live next to open drains without power, water or sanitation? How many parks are there in these slums? There are no roads even. It is much better to live in a well designed working class neighbourhood with proper facilities than to live in a makeshift shanty in a more prosperous area. This is normal practice even now. The rich live in better areas while the poor live in industrial and less desirable areas.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by ashokrajagopal

...
In other words, that borders on institutionalizing a class divide with an actual geographic divide....

Fair point, but the class divide is already institutionalized, geographical separation notwithstanding.

Bombay airport is my favorite visual example of this. The worlds within and without that perimeter wall may as well be in different universes, because they'll never meet. I'd bet what you say about 'resource allocation in a disaster' is already true in that slum.

That being the situation, the clamor for social equality needs to start at lifting the baseline. That isn't to say we scoop our poor up and toss them in the middle of nowhere so 'out of sight, out of mind' (which I suspect was one of the reasons for the timing of the 'allowed' labor migration), but maintaining status quo isn't helping them either.

[ashokrajagopal]

Originally Posted by Lobogris

How many resources are currently provided in shanties where people live next to open drains without power, water or sanitation? How many parks are there in these slums? There are no roads even. It is much better to live in a well designed working class neighbourhood with proper facilities than to live in a makeshift shanty in a more prosperous area. This is normal practice even now. The rich live in better areas while the poor live in industrial and less desirable areas.

This is way OT and we can discuss this elsewhere.
Just picking up parks for example, there is no park (in cities in which there are parks) which discriminates against poor or based on a dress code.
Whether somebody wants to live in the outskirts on better facilities or in the city is up to each person. You may feel like that, I wont feel like that. Government institutionalizing it by force just leads a social problem.
I do not think existing problems justify a physical segregation with economic markers. That would be asking for social strife.

Please lets continue in the real estate thread or somewhere like that. This is way OT to this thread.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Fair point, but the class divide is already institutionalized, geographical separation notwithstanding.

Bombay airport is my favorite visual example of this. The worlds within and without that perimeter wall may as well be in different universes, because they'll never meet. I'd bet what you say about 'resource allocation in a disaster' is already true in that slum.

That being the situation, the clamor for social equality needs to start at lifting the baseline. That isn't to say we scoop our poor up and toss them in the middle of nowhere so 'out of sight, out of mind' (which I suspect was one of the reasons for the timing of the 'allowed' labor migration), but maintaining status quo isn't helping them either.

OT to the thread, lets please move this elsewhere.
I will just say one thing, the reason you and me are seeing this and discussing this is because they are right there in front of us. Once its gentrified away, there is no chance of getting out of the that social trouble. Patched up satellites would be created and would remain there out of mainstream for ever. Rural India is a testament to this.

[poloman]

Looks like the govt has understood the situation now that things are beyond their control. The virus has spread wide and beyond. Most people are asymptomatic who are not being tested anyway. States are giving some numbers which suits them and covering up the rest. The experience of this medico from Chennai gives a picture of the situation.
https://twitter.com/PrabakaranSwadi/...43931689107456

[vivek95]

Originally Posted by poloman

Looks like the govt has understood the situation now that things are beyond their control. The virus has spread wide and beyond. Most people are asymptomatic who are not being tested anyway. States are giving some numbers which suits them and covering up the rest. The experience of this medico from Chennai gives a picture of the situation.
https://twitter.com/PrabakaranSwadi/...43931689107456

This is true and I had shared this too. Doctors in Mumbai are not tested anymore, I know I am positive, but just that I can't get myself tested. The bug is everywhere, contact tracing has no meaning. This hype, fear and panic has to wane off here onwards.

[poloman]

Originally Posted by vivek95

This is true and I had shared this too. Doctors in Mumbai are not tested anymore, I know I am positive, but just that I can't get myself tested. The bug is everywhere, contact tracing has no meaning. This hype, fear and panic has to wane off here onwards.

Doctor, if this is the situation medical fraternity should start a campaign to educate the general public. Untouchability is creeping in back after a century in many societies. Despite lifting of 90% lockdown business is still dull. People are not stepping out of their homes.

Even today on TV some experts were showing how virus can spread in a restaurant using
some form of ridiculous dye. Why confuse and further scare people if the reality is different?

[am1m]

Originally Posted by poloman

Despite lifting of 90% lockdown business is still dull. People are not stepping out of their homes.

Quite a bit of crowd and traffic in the areas I've been to over the past week. Not like normal, but pretty good. But I guess non-grocery retail business must certainly be down compared to pre-lockdown. Hope it picks up soon. I think it will. I think it's mainly the people like us who are constantly reading things online who are finding things to be even more wary/careful about. Trying to design 'safe protocols' for going to work, going in a bus, etc. And of course the RWA-ruled-mini-kingdoms are doing their own thing! I think the rest of the country is just trying to go about normal life as much as possible.