[mayankk]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

Correct sir, I read in early ages the Romans were pagan worshippers and worshipped the same gods as Nordic people as did the Greeks. Monotheism i.e Saturn worship aka Shabbat came later.

Paganism. Just.
Not Pagan worshippers.
And the romans probably did not know that were paganists(?), since it came into being as a term around their decline.

[Guite]

Originally Posted by mayankk

But this is correct.
The "the" is not for Shah rukh khan.

Originally Posted by dark.knight

Yep, I second that. The 'the' is for the movie. Come to think of it the first statement could also be correct if read differently, i.e "accused THE [as in pronounced thee (again not to be confused with Shakespearean thee which would mean 'you')] Shahrukh Khan of stealing their movie plot", if the 'the' is indeed pronounced "dhuh" and not "thee" then as pointed out by OP the statement is wrong. Okay enough tongue twisting for one day.

Of course the second example is right, that's why I had put clapping emoticon. The first one is plain wrong, it's not a matter of pronunciation. "The" is pronounced as DA or DE depending on whether the word after it starts with a consonant or a vowel.

[tilt]

Originally Posted by Guite

*SNIP* "The" is pronounced as DA or DE depending on whether the word after it starts with a consonant or a vowel.

Your statement is mostly correct. The completely correct version is as follows:

"The" is pronounced "thuh (or DA)" or "thi (DE)" depending on the way the start of the following word sounds. If the sound is of a vowel, then it is pronounced "thi", and of the sound is that of a consonant, it is pronounced "thuh".

Examples:

"Thi" unknown (following word "unknown" begins with a vowel and the "u" is pronounced "uh" as in the sound of "a" or "u", another vowel.)

"Thuh" uniform (following word "uniform" also begins with the same vowel, "u", but the sound of the "u" here is like a "y" as in "yooniform". Since "y" is a consonant, the "the" is pronounced "thuh" and not "thi").

More examples:

Thuh Yellow car
Thuh uniform (though it begins with a vowel)
Thi umbrella
Thi asking price
Thi excellent view
Thuh Shah Rukh Khan movie


The reason for the distinction in pronunciation is to induce a separation between the two words. Try saying "thuh umbrella" instead of "thi umbrella" and you'll notice that the latter induces a separation between the the and the umbrella. Consonant words do not need this inducement since the separation is built in.

That raises another question - why pronounce it as thuh at all, why not just make the standard pronunciation thi and be done with it?

Cheers

[Thad E Ginathom]

On ancient religions and the naming of days...

I am on shaky ground here, having not given these things a thought since school days, but I think that the Norse myths and the Roman/Greek myths are independent. Why ancient peoples have mythologies that have many similarities is one for for the anthropologists, rather than the grammarians.

On second thoughts, though, maybe we have a mix: although Thor and associates are certainly Norse, isn't Saturn Roman? I'd have to ask google.

On the pronunciation of the...

I've never thought about this at all! I don't think that there is any rule, and I don't think that either is wrong. I agree that some of those following-word combinations do feel smoother. I'd let this one just come naturally. I suppose I do: if you ask me how I use those pronunciations, I don't know. You'd have to listen to me when I'm not thinking about it!

Sometimes, emphasis can change the pronunciation: we may be talking about the[ee] antelope, not just any antelope.

[reverse_gear]

Originally Posted by tilt

Your statement is mostly correct. The completely correct version is as follows:

"The" is pronounced "thuh (or DA)" or "thi (DE)" depending on the way the start of the following word sounds. If the sound is of a vowel, then it is pronounced "thi", and of the sound is that of a consonant, it is pronounced "thuh".

Similar rule applies for "a" and "an" usage. So it is:

a uniform
a united team
an X-ray
a European
an honest bloke
a one-eyed pirate

Far too many people get their articles wrong.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

[b]
On the pronunciation of the...

I've never thought about this at all! I don't think that there is any rule, and I don't think that either is wrong. I agree that some of those following-word combinations do feel smoother. I'd let this one just come naturally. I suppose I do: if you ask me how I use those pronunciations, I don't know. You'd have to listen to me when I'm not thinking about it!

Emphasis apart, we were taught in school (far too long back!) to use the correct pronunciation of "the". Generally, usage of "a" as indefinite article corresponds to the pronunciation as "th-uh"; and usage of "an" as indefinite article corresponds to pronunciation as "th-ee".

My daughters are also being taught in school along similar lines now.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Well, a and an have specified rules because they apply to the written language.

As I say, I may be following the rules: I'm not concious of it. That may be part of the native, mother-tongue thing: my mother might have taught me this at three years old, but I don't remember it.

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

.... my mother might have taught me this at three years old, but I don't remember it.

... And though not a native speaker of the language someone, at some point, taught me the difference between 'cloth' and 'clothes'. I am appalled at the number of people that simply cannot get this right, including our media 'professionals'!
Like here: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/49856096.cms

[Thad E Ginathom]

the difference between 'cloth' and 'clothes'

This is a difference that seems to have become lost in "Indian" English. That confused me on conversation sometimes.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by reverse_gear

Similar rule applies for "a" and "an" usage. So it is:

a uniform
a united team
an X-ray
a European
an honest bloke
a one-eyed pirate

Far too many people get their articles wrong.

Blame this guy:

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

... That confused me on conversation sometimes.

Aye, there are many on our forum who pack their cloths to go on a trip, or have their cloths dripping wet riding in driving rain.
Could it be that they mean their loincloths?

[vnabhi]

Originally Posted by tilt

"The" is pronounced "thuh (or DA)" or "thi (DE)" depending on the way the start of the following word sounds. If the sound is of a vowel, then it is pronounced "thi", and of the sound is that of a consonant, it is pronounced "thuh".

More examples:

Thuh Yellow car
Thuh uniform (though it begins with a vowel)
Thi umbrella
Thi asking price
Thi excellent view
Thuh Shah Rukh Khan movie

Cheers

Matches with what I was taught in school.

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

On the pronunciation of the...

Sometimes, emphasis can change the pronunciation: we may be talking about the[ee] antelope, not just any antelope.

Yes, that is also a common usage, like 'that is the(ee) movie to watch', although I am not sure of its correctness.

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by anupmathur

... And though not a native speaker of the language someone, at some point, taught me the difference between 'cloth' and 'clothes'.

People (specially when in journalism) should get to the origin of each word when learning a language. I've seen that some write cloths as an attempt to indicate a plural form of 'garment'. Its a very tricky situation this word in special, as :

cloth - piece of fabric (unstitched)
cloths - pieces of fabric (unstitched)
clothes - pieces of fabric stitched together to form a wearable attire, even one is written as plural since its made of multiple 'cloths'.
clothe - not a singular version of clothes but a word to indicate putting on of clothes

Funny logic indeed, but these are the rules as of now TOI's articles are strewn with errors these days as they have jumped into the 'SMS lingo' bandwagon & Americanized (so called) genteelism in an attempt to appear 'kewl'. Such writers can never get the proper usage of the language due to poor understanding or rather carelessness.

[Thad E Ginathom]

We need to refine a little further.

Pieces of cloth, on the shop shelf, or warehouse, is not cloths, but cloth!

The thing you wipe the floor with is a cloth, stitched or not, and as you probably have more than one, that is cloths!

You put on your clothes, but you clothe somebody/something else.

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

....
You put on your clothes, but you clothe somebody/something else.

But you put on your loincloth (before you put on your clothes). Stitched or not, this one remains a cloth. Plural 'loincloths'.

[Thad E Ginathom]

wearing my loinclothes.... love it!

And how about a man of the cloth?

This is a very challenging word to get to grips with