[shashanka]

Originally Posted by dailydriver

Same boat!
Like so many other things in life, I do it by instinct. I am certainly not capable of explaining the difference in a manner that would convince all the readers of the thread; which, by the way, is a shame, I will tell you.
I could go on and on about restrictive and non restrictive clauses and such other stuff but that would make you none the wiser. Which is why, I think it best to direct you to a few links which might help understand things better.
If the links help you find a simple and easy to understand explanation of the difference, which I doubt they will, please let me know. That way, I can claim to have helped a fellow learner.
Links:
1
2
3

To be quite honest, I surf thru' this thread once in a while, mostly because I like Thad's sincerity in his efforts to propagate good English usage. For myself, I feel I get by most of the time without making an ass of myself. And don't give it a thought - the best help you gave me was to mention that you too do it by instinct!

[binand]

A report about the final contest of the (Women's Single) Badminton World Championship that saw P V Sindhu being defeated by Carolina Marin was headlined thus by Bangalore Mirror

Originally Posted by shashanka

Just out of curiosity, the word "that" as used above - could it be grammatically & correctly be replaced by "which"

In the quoted sentence, the second part refers to the specific event mentioned in the first half (of all the world championship finals, this was the one in which Sindhu was defeated by Marin). In such cases, "that" is appropriate.

Compare with this:

A report about the final contest of the (Women's Single) Badminton World Championship which saw Japanese teen prodigy Akane Yamaguchi defeated in the semi finals itself...

And this:

A report about the the (Women's Single) Badminton World Championship that saw PV Sindhu defeating Japanese teen prodigy Akane Yamaguchi in the semi finals but losing in the finals...

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by binand

In the quoted sentence, the second part refers to the specific event mentioned in the first half (of all the world championship finals, this was the one in which Sindhu was defeated by Marin). In such cases, "that" is appropriate.
Compare with this:
And this:

Duh?? I have to be dumb - I just don't get it!

[venuvedam]

As a member who has been reprimanded by team-bhp moderators for using incorrect grammar in my posts, I have a query. This may seem really stupid but I feel my language skills have not had any improvement in the last ten years. In fact, I feel I wrote better prose in 2005 than in 2018! How to improve my grasp of the written word? Does it make sense to go back to Wren and Martin and Strunk and White at this juncture in my life (post 40 years)? Is there a better way?

I struggle with the correct usage of past perfect tense specifically. For instance, should I write "I had done that before" to communicate that I know how to do something because I have prior experience? Or should I say "I did that before"? or "I have done that before"? This is just an example. The confusion gets murkier when I have to deal with indirect sentences. What tense to use after "that"? When I was five years old I was told that Earth is not flat. Should it be "told that Earth was not flat"?

I understand this is not a language forum but the quality of responses here is just amazing. The examples cited above are just that - examples. My question is generic - How to fix these issues and become a better writer of English? I am on the wrong side of 40. Is it even practical now to embark on this journey given half my brain cells are probably already dead?

Thank you and yes, please go easy on the grammatical mistakes in this post.

[Thad E Ginathom]

I am on the wrong side of sixty, and increasingly less able to answer questions such as the one that you pose!

A native speaker of English (and it is my only language), I was born long enough ago to have been taught formal grammar but have forgotten most of its technicalities. Since then, the extent to which I sometimes speak my own language well is due to the teaching that became automatic. So is this the only answer? Become an academic and study grammar? I don't think it is. I think we can all learn good English, at any age, and with any background, by reading good English.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by venuvedam

As a member who has been reprimanded by team-bhp moderators for using incorrect grammar in my posts, I have a query. This may seem really stupid but I feel my language skills have not had any improvement in the last ten years. In fact, I feel I wrote better prose in 2005 than in 2018! How to improve my grasp of the written word? Does it make sense to go back to Wren and Martin and Strunk and White at this juncture in my life (post 40 years)? Is there a better way?
I struggle with the correct usage of past perfect tense specifically. For instance, should I write "I had done that before" to communicate that I know how to do something because I have prior experience? Or should I say "I did that before"? or "I have done that before"? This is just an example. The confusion gets murkier when I have to deal with indirect sentences. What tense to use after "that"? When I was five years old I was told that Earth is not flat. Should it be "told that Earth was not flat"?
I understand this is not a language forum but the quality of responses here is just amazing. The examples cited above are just that - examples. My question is generic - How to fix these issues and become a better writer of English? I am on the wrong side of 40. Is it even practical now to embark on this journey given half my brain cells are probably already dead?
Thank you and yes, please go easy on the grammatical mistakes in this post.

Venuvedum, I see no reason for you to worry. I have suffered no inner qualms about my ability or otherwise - I feel I am reasonably competent to get by in mixed company without dropping a brick.

And if you asked me, this is only because of my reading habit - I read voraciously (or rather I used to - this has reduced a good deal in the past couple of decades due to the python-like grip of the internet on our lives!).

My only suggestion would be to use some discretion in your reading - try & stick to English authors (which have made it to the best seller lists - the Guardian is a good place to start) & if possible avoid American best-sellers. They often make for gripping reading but usually play havoc with our grasp of good English!

[shashanka]

^^^ The instinct didn't work this time, did it? It should have read: ......authors (who have made it to the best sellers list) instead of - (which have made it.....

[venuvedam]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

A native speaker of English (and it is my only language), I was born long enough ago to have been taught formal grammar but have forgotten most of its technicalities.

So it is true that we lose the language if we do not actively pursue it? I am losing my grip on Tamil (my mother tongue) because it is only with my parents that I get to speak it. I was a voracious reader and writer a decade ago and while grammar had always haunted me, I did have a better grasp of English back then.

Originally Posted by shashanka

try & stick to English authors (which have made it to the best seller lists - the Guardian is a good place to start)

Excellent suggestion. Is this what you are referring to? https://www.theguardian.com/books/fiction

Originally Posted by shashanka

(who have made it to the best sellers list) instead of - (which have made it.....

Till I read this correction post of yours, I hadn't even noticed it. Sad state of my English comprehension

[Thad E Ginathom]

I might have said "The authors that have made it..." I don't think it needs to who[m].

[comfortablynumb]

Originally Posted by venuvedam

Does it make sense to go back to Wren and Martin and Strunk and White at this juncture in my life (post 40 years)? Is there a better way?

Don't beat yourself up unnecessarily, your grammar doesn't look that bad at all.

If you do want to use a book, please consider "Word power made easy" by Norman Lewis (usually available on Amazon for 100 - 125 INR). At least I have found it quite useful over the years.

Cheers,
Vikram

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by venuvedam

So it is true...

Around fifteen years ago, during my college days, I was an excellent cook. I no longer am; for the simple reason that I stopped going into the kitchen after marriage.

Further back in time, when I had a benevolent librarian and two top class English teachers constantly pushing me into reading books day in and day out, my language skills were far superior to what they are now. Once life and laziness took over, I am no longer that fluid a writer.

Shorn of regular practice, even captain Kohli wouldn't be his normal self. Would he?

Don't beat yourself up unnecessarily

As rightly pointed out by comfortablynumb, the last two posts of yours stand testimony to your language skills. Do not worry at all.

As regards the occasional infractions that we see on the forum, I have observed that more often than not, they are the result largely of carelessness than the lack of grammar skills. Many people do not take the trouble of reviewing their posts and hence end up leaving many typos, grammatical errors and SMSisms.

Writing in The Hindu, Jerry Pinto comments:

...writing a draft is like toilet-training a child. You do it so that no one else has to clean up afterwards.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by venuvedam

So it is true that we lose the language if we do not actively pursue it? I am losing my grip on Tamil (my mother tongue) because it is only with my parents that I get to speak it. I was a voracious reader and writer a decade ago and while grammar had always haunted me, I did have a better grasp of English back then.
Excellent suggestion. Is this what you are referring to? https://www.theguardian.com/books/fiction
Till I read this correction post of yours, I hadn't even noticed it. Sad state of my English comprehension

Like I said venu, don't give it a thought! As dailydriver & comfortably numb have pointed out, a good part of the issue is plain carelessness - after I've already posted & am re-reading a post, I often want to beat myself over the head because of the various little niggles I find! I wish I was more like Thad - careful forethought before putting pen to paper - but I know I can't. To each his own. And yes, that's the Guardian list of good reading. I also go over the following - https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...argaret-atwood

And at the end of the day, I remember that I am a Bengali, born & schooled in the north (Punjab & U.P.) & have lived in Mumbai & Lucknow over the past few decades (Kolkata being a recent addiction, mostly to do with the Hilsa). And at home we communicate in a comfortable mix of Bengali, English & Hindi - each using his own concoction! And we are none the worse for it!

[Thad E Ginathom]

You should sea the stuff I post from my phone. Two many mistakes!

Don't phrase me: I don't deserve it !

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

You should sea the stuff I post from my phone. Two many mistakes!
Don't phrase me: I don't deserve it!

I will choose to ignore these mistakes assuming that you met with and got influenced by a close relative of Mrs Malaprop in your recent trip to UK .

I could have illiterated the very recall of your post from my brawn; but it is an alligator for all things that can go wrong while compressing in a harried manner and hence will choice to memory it.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

You should sea the stuff I post from my phone. Two many mistakes!
Don't phrase me: I don't deserve it !

That's your modestness catching the butter of you! After all, we are like that only!

By the way did I tell you about the bishop who told one of the parishioners who was laughing heartily (after he, the bishop, had slipped on the banana peel carefully placed in the bishop's path), "When thou gets home to thy kennel tonight, I hope thy mother biteth thee!"

Now, that's what I call elegant restraint - with the slip peeping through!