[Captain Slow]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

You call a 1955 sq ft appartment small?

Originally Posted by fordday

I think captain meant the number of flats in the complex are few so the total size of the complex is small.

Just wondering is it worth buying a 16 year old apartment? Considering even the quality of construction to be okay, it will mean a third of its life is over. Am i right?

Yup that is what I wanted to say
You are very right, Its not worth buying any apartment thats more than 15 years old. Another thing this building was build by some small constructor. Unlike the biggies like sobha or prestige we don't know the build quality.
Older the buildings the bigger the problems, drain pipes would need to be changed, Elevators would need service or sometimes replacement and other smaller things will keep coming up.

[amitk26]

( Continuing from last post .. )

Before you look out for an apartment / Plot , Find a Lawyer who can be with you during the whole transaction and before you find a Lawyer gain a first hand understanding of all the required papers.

It is just that when it comes to Cars you do not leave it to mechanic/ A.S.S but gather knowledge here on T-BHP and ask informed questions / suggestions which make the A.S.S guys pays attention same goes for builders and Lawyers.

Here is a list of documents which you should ensure are in the file before you take them for verification to any lawyer just in order to save time else you will be going in loop back and forth.
Now this list can tell you why I wrote earlier that smaller independent building in pre-existing layout is easier to buy then an apartment in big project.

1. Copy of Approval from relevant town planning authority.
2. Copy of Challan for conversion fee paid till date
3. Copy of conversion from Agricultural to residential use. ( DC conversion)
In many cases land was converted to Hi-Tech and industrial use so again an approval from hi-tech /industrial to residential use is required.

4. Latest Encumbersement certificate of the Land for which approval is obtained ( should not be more then 2 weeks old) : This certificate tells if there are any loans / mortgage against the property or in whose name the property is. Usually the developers will palm you some 1-2 months old copy but demand latest.

5. Latest RTC: This is a revenue record for agricultural land it tells in whose name the property is. Even after the conversion of agricultural to residential use is done Latest RTC is required to ensure that person who has done conversion was owning land as per revanue record at that time.

6. Copy of Absolute Sale deed for the land in all the surveys on which the building /layout is proposed (you should match the survey numbers while collecting the file)

7. Copy for mother deed for at least past 13 years for all the surveys for which sale deed is provided match the survey numbers to ensure mother deeds for all the portions of land are covered.

8. The Khatha extract for the ownership of land.

9. Sketch / map of the boundaries of the land , Match the survey number of the boundaries in the map to the description of the boundary in the sale deed(s)

10. NOC from Fire department

11. Approval from BWSSB and electricity supply company

12. NOC from state pollution control board.
13. Latest tax paid receipts /challans

Now the above is not an exhaustive list but these things are at the minimum required for any lawyer to give you any meaningful report.
The land use conversion, approval and land boundaries are biggest minefields.

But the fact is no builder in Bangalore has all the papers in order 100% when they start booking at lowest rate ( technically not selling the property yet) after this booking they sign an agreement to sell which states some schedule and terms and conditions by when they will complete the development and sell you the property
. So for the missing documents ( example Fire NOC , PCB NOC etc) you need to make sure that agreement to sale or development agreement list them as pending approvals and state purchasers booking is subject to these approvals with in 6 months if vendor fails to get the necessary approval he will refund the 100% amount with some interest ( 8 -10%).

Also many builders sign these agreements on 2 Rs stamp paper which carries no meaning , For deal over 1 lakh minimum 200Rs stamp paper is required ( the development amount exceeds 1 lakh even excluding sale deed amount)

If the amount involved is big and the project timeline is long you may consider registering the agreement to sale / development agreement itself in sub-registrar office and for this you need to talk to builder at the time of booking itself so there is no altercation later.. This amount may be big ( 20-30 K) but well worth if your wait time for property is 2-3 years.

Most big builders have a chain of people starting from sales guy to A.G.M , GM , director and as it happens employees in the office of builders are themselves ignorant about various things and don't have an iota of knowledge about legalities, or plain lazy to push thier people to get latest EC , RTC etc from relevant government offices so you need to push them real hard and not close the deal under the threat.
Most of the time they will call and threaten to cancel the deal then simply say they can go ahead and cancel but do not move an inch without all the documents in hand

They have a single point objective of closing the deal , to catch the customer in Bangalore no so called reputed builder is willing to release the photo copy of the documents before he takes booking amount ranging from 1L to 5 Lakhs so in such case you need to negotiate hard that you will give a small token of 10K and first verify the papers with in a week and then give the booking amount. In such cases group buy often helps to pressurize them to listen to you.

In this 1 week time also you will not get 100% satisfaction but some basic facts about the ownership of land can be established and rest of the verification you need to do after giving more money ( subject to promise of refund, no questions asked in writing) and subsequent verification there after.

After verification of papers come the fight for inserting / deleting clauses in sale agreement. You need to bang a lot of head against the wall if you are alone but if you are group of buyers you can easily pressurize them to delete the undue clauses terms and conditions put against you.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by Captain Slow

Yup that is what I wanted to say
You are very right, Its not worth buying any apartment thats more than 15 years old. Another thing this building was build by some small constructor. Unlike the biggies like sobha or prestige we don't know the build quality.
Older the buildings the bigger the problems, drain pipes would need to be changed, Elevators would need service or sometimes replacement and other smaller things will keep coming up.

Captain slow both the conditions are not necessarily true , smaller older building can be good as well and biggies may give not so good quality.
For example Raheja is one of the biggest in country but if you have seen the quality you may understand what I am trying to say

For older buildings once you have shortlisted on your parameters it is good idea to engage an evaluator.

[skartik2]

thanks muchos for the list Amit.

[condor]

After searching JP nagar, Bannerghatta Road & Kanakapura road for new, ready to move in flats - and not finding any good ones, I am now looking for recent constructions. But there's hardly any, or at least I am not able to find any. Hope I dont have to look beyond Meenakshi temple.

[rki2007]

Originally Posted by condor

After searching JP nagar, Bannerghatta Road & Kanakapura road for new, ready to move in flats - and not finding any good ones, I am now looking for recent constructions. But there's hardly any, or at least I am not able to find any. Hope I dont have to look beyond Meenakshi temple.

In Bannerghata road:- Behind Prestige there is one more project called Maithreyee and also in Vijaya bank colony Mahaveer is doing two projects, one is Rhyolite and the other one i am not able to recall the name. This is after EK Retail and IOC Pump.

JP Nagar- HM, and many other small projects are going around Jumbo savari bus stop.

Kanakpura road- Mantri forest view (I think this may take a long time)

[condor]

@rki,
Mahaveer is budget flats, and small in size
Maithreye is Aikya, and they have some un-imaginative floor layouts.
Near EK, you have Srivari, and SMR (in diff sides). SMR not sure yet
Coral waters is Somewhere in that area, but dont know exactly where

Mantri will take some time. They are way behind even Sobha Forest view.

[anup7649]

Originally Posted by condor

@rki,
Mahaveer is budget flats, and small in size
Maithreye is Aikya, and they have some un-imaginative floor layouts.
Near EK, you have Srivari, and SMR (in diff sides). SMR not sure yet
Coral waters is Somewhere in that area, but dont know exactly where

Mantri will take some time. They are way behind even Sobha Forest view.

You can check in Amoda- near meenakshi temple..

[poloman]

Originally Posted by Captain Slow

Yup that is what I wanted to say
You are very right, Its not worth buying any apartment thats more than 15 years old. Another thing this building was build by some small constructor. Unlike the biggies like sobha or prestige we don't know the build quality.
Older the buildings the bigger the problems, drain pipes would need to be changed, Elevators would need service or sometimes replacement and other smaller things will keep coming up.

Captain, I would say that it is a common misconception. The build quality has progressively deteriorated over the years due to gross commercialisation. Also 15 years is not a big period in the life time of a building. Going for builders like Sobha or Prestige won't guarantee any build quality. Hope you remember the collapse of one of Prestige Shantiniketan towers some time back.

[rkg]

Originally Posted by Captain Slow

Yup that is what I wanted to say
You are very right, Its not worth buying any apartment thats more than 15 years old. Another thing this building was build by some small constructor. Unlike the biggies like sobha or prestige we don't know the build quality.
Older the buildings the bigger the problems, drain pipes would need to be changed, Elevators would need service or sometimes replacement and other smaller things will keep coming up.

Big builders subcontract every thing (electrical, civil, plumbing etc) these subcontractor again sub contract it. Hence the cost over runs. because several layers are there between customer and seller.

some times small builders are much better and offer more bang for the buck. but one has to search for it.

[amitk26]

I hope people have read the news that DLF is slapped of 630 Cr as fine by Competition Commission , I think this is a step in right direction.
Big groups have so many one sided clause that it is impossible to fight them. Also people in Bangalore are totally ignorant and despite educated and understanding English very well fail to comprehend what the clause means.

Originally Posted by rkg

Big builders subcontract every thing (electrical, civil, plumbing etc) these subcontractor again sub contract it. Hence the cost over runs. because several layers are there between customer and seller.

some times small builders are much better and offer more bang for the buck. but one has to search for it.

Exactly ..
I have done 8 property transactions in last 10 years ( no I am not a rich landshark but people around me trusted me on these things to do on their behalf)

My take on this after dealing with both small and big groups

Pros for big builder with 200+ apartment project
1. You have small kids who need social life and other children to play with.
It is really difficult for kids to find friends in smaller complex.
2. If spouse is HW for better social life a bigger complex may be better.
3. You are not averse to living far away.

Cons :
1. There are almost always issues wrt legalities.
2. In agreements there are unequal clauses which are hard to digest.
3. You are no-body if you do not have a group sale , Even asking for an extra TV point of AC point is herculean task. You will get some rediculas answers

Go For smaller builder if

1. You want to live in close proximity of city , Amenity here will be the proximity of shopping, mall , schools etc , Many smaller builders have good construction quality and have almost all amenities except swimming pool.
2. You do not have a requirement to have social life with in complex.
3. You prefer to take membership of clubs like Kormangla Club rather then that 5 feet deep swimming pool in the building.

[mkh]

Originally Posted by amitk26

...
.....

My take on this after dealing with both small and big groups

Pros for big builder with 200+ apartment project
1. You have small kids who need social life and other children to play with.
It is really difficult for kids to find friends in smaller complex.
2. If spouse is HW for better social life a bigger complex may be better.
3. You are not averse to living far away.

Cons :
1. There are almost always issues wrt legalities.
2. In agreements there are unequal clauses which are hard to digest.
3. You are no-body if you do not have a group sale , Even asking for an extra TV point of AC point is herculean task. You will get some rediculas answers

Go For smaller builder if

1. You want to live in close proximity of city , Amenity here will be the proximity of shopping, mall , schools etc , Many smaller builders have good construction quality and have almost all amenities except swimming pool.
2. You do not have a requirement to have social life with in complex.
3. You prefer to take membership of clubs like Kormangla Club rather then that 5 feet deep swimming pool in the building.

Another advantage of bigger builders
- Re sale is easier, cause still the perception is when seeing a big name -" all will be fine"
- Rental value one gets is also higher with things inside the complex.
That said in troubled times being with small builders means chances of non completion of project, unless going to buy a completed one. There are a few builders who are level2 but good ones as they are creating a name- those are good options too as at the time of first few projects, they will do the best( as establishing a name in the market)

[poloman]

Additional cons of big builders and big projects.
Astronomical maintenance and housekeeping charges.Some builders convert this to a money minting exercise. In some flats owners are charged even for using gym and clubhouse even after paying through the nose.
Very minimal personal say in the day to day running of association since some caucuses will soon take over the full control.

[rkg]

In case of big builders the notion of easy resale, appreciation & rental value is over hyped

One has to see rental value as percentage of the cost of acquisition of the property

[download2live]

Originally Posted by rkg

In case of big builders the notion of easy resale, appreciation & rental value is over hyped

One has to see rental value as percentage of the cost of acquisition of the property

True. I do not see many people coughing up 70+ lacs for a 2nd hand apartment in a Mantri or Sobha.

More expensive the flat is less its chances of getting sold.
Kinda of negates all the theory of price appreciating. I mean even if 45 lac apartment has become 80 lac apartment, whats the use if there is no buyer?