[speed79]

Originally Posted by adithya.kp

Hi Guys,
I am looking to buy a property. My lawyer gave the green signal after checking the documents. But I am not completely convinced with the seller. ( He is a businessman and boasts about his net-worth/company, contacts with influential people etc. I doubt his claims. Also, I found some discrepancy in some of the other things that he claimed. (not related to the property under question)). I dont know if I am over analysing the situation. Questions.

1. How important is the profile of the seller in property transactions? Do you guys do any background check while buying the property?. How do you do ?
2. Are there any agencies that do some forensic check? ( I heard a similar thing exists for marriage proposals)

I have bought some properties in Bangalore in last 11 years and am on lookout for one more. The points that I consider:

1. I buy only BDA alloted plots. No non-BDA properties for me.
2. Only cheque/white money deals.
3. Avoid too good to be true deals.
4. No haughty/politicians/influential persons. They try ro push you on terms in sales agreement or sales deed.
5. I always buy property on bank loan, and that too only from SBI. Thry also do their due diligence on property. They take more time in loan processing. They also take KYC of seller, so that is another check.

[green_ninja]

Originally Posted by adithya.kp

Hi Guys,

1. How important is the profile of the seller in property transactions? Do you guys do any background check while buying the property?. How do you do ?

Seller's profile doesn't matter as long as he/she owns the property free and clear in his/her name without any encumbrances. I wouldn't pay any advance other than a token (<10k). If you have any doubts over the credibility of the seller, withhold all payments till the day of the registration. Make cash payments at some neutral place( typically the document writer's office), get all the documents signed there and go straight to the registrar's office and get the registration done. The "white" part, pay via DD and hand it over at the registrar's office.

Now, if the seller is an intermediary and has some sort of understanding with the owner of the property then walk away if you have doubts. Don't do such deals unless you know the seller personally and you are sure he/she is reputable.

[raycers_honda]

Hi all, I’m looking to sell a plot of land near Pune. Can you give some tips on what I should expect from the buyer in terms of documents. And also if some one could give me a brief detail of the selling procedure. I just want the sale to be clear and transparent as we are selling to a buyer who we are not familiar with. Thi is the first time we are doing such a deal so we are clueless. Any help or tips would be highly appreciated.

[adithya.kp]

Thanks a lot nagr22, speed79, green_ninja
My lawyer is someone I know closely and he is very good. But he admits the legal check cannot catch everything. You are right, the EC portal is very useful. But it can only be used for transactions since 2004. For the old EC, I dont know if they really do a proper search. Because we need to mention the document number(s) of all transactions in the EC application. They might only search those entries. What if there are other transactions?. I understand it will at-least help validate the names of sellers/buyers

So far, I have not been convinced with the seller. I think he is hiding something. This is an acquired property. I know that technically his children don't need to sign. But when I asked if they could sign, he got very upset. He now tells me, why am asking so many questions, lets cancel the deal if I don't trust him.

Since this is an independent house which is more complex than an apartment, I wanted do some more checks. 1. Can a good lawyer detect forgery of documents/signatures by looking at the photo copy and original?. May not be fool proof. But to some extent. 2. To my knowledge EC will record the official pledging. But what if the seller has a lot of unofficial pledging? How does one find it out?. 3. In the event of insolvency (seller's business), can the creditors claim his old properties even though they are not pledged?

[Ragavsr]

Originally Posted by raycers_honda

Any help or tips would be highly appreciated.

I would suggest you hire a lawyer who you can take guidance from. If sale agreements are to be made, you get it done by your lawyer. Do not let the buyer dictate terms and conditions for your property.

Originally Posted by green_ninja

Make cash payments at some neutral place( typically the document writer's office), get all the documents signed there and go straight to the registrar's office and get the registration done.

Most sellers would want cash to be handed over at their place and if I am selling I would do the same as well. The Document writer whom the buyer is paying off is no neutral place. As such there is no safety or guarantee for the cash and no safety if the cash is transferred at a third party place where the buyer could setup goons and snatch the cash.

Originally Posted by speed79

2. Only cheque/white money deals.

That rules out 90% of properties on sale. Frankly this 100% white is common only with apartments.

Originally Posted by adithya.kp

1. Can a good lawyer detect forgery of documents/signatures by looking at the photo copy and original?

Stop being too paranoid, your lawyer will take care of the legalities. Original verification is usually allowed by sellers after a big advance is given, usually at the time of signing an agreement. Never before that, and we usually walk away from the deal if any buyer forces the issue and wants to verify originals without paying a reasonable advance.

Asking for children's signatures for an acquired property is irritating and downright illegal ,taking away the property rights of an individual. In an earlier deal where my parents sold a property , the buyer wanted my signature and both me and my parents refused and asked him to call off the deal if he wanted and told him he had to cough up the cancellation penalty as per the agreement.

Stop making such unreasonable requests and if you don't trust the legal system in the country don't buy a property here .

[whitewing]

Originally Posted by adithya.kp

...
So far, I have not been convinced with the seller. I think he is hiding something. This is an acquired property. I know that technically his children don't need to sign. But when I asked if they could sign, he got very upset. He now tells me, why am asking so many questions, lets cancel the deal if I don't trust him.

Since this is an independent house which is more complex than an apartment, I wanted do some more checks. 1. Can a good lawyer detect forgery of documents/signatures by looking at the photo copy and original?. May not be fool proof. But to some extent. 2. To my knowledge EC will record the official pledging. But what if the seller has a lot of unofficial pledging? How does one find it out?. 3. In the event of insolvency (seller's business), can the creditors claim his old properties even though they are not pledged?

Make sure the building is built as per building bye laws and as per plan. If there are deviations(most will have deviations). Assess if they are major deviations (in Bangalore a large potion of the real estate have deviations).
Check if you will get full possession (i.e. existing tenants vacated out) at the time of the purchase.

The encumbrance & occupancy certificate etc. would be taken care by any competent lawyer - if it adds to your peace of mind, go to the registrar office of the property and get a EC for a longer duration, say 25 years.

Real estate usually involves significant sums, so, nothing wrong in trying to take every possible precaution. It often helps if we let the other party know of our concerns and that you are doing it bring a swift closure to the transaction.

There are any number of ways people get conned. If you feel that there may be a future litigation that may crop up, try to mitigate that, if it means requesting an additional signature from the son, do that.


At the end of it, as with any trade, trust matters.
All the best!

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by raycers_honda

Hi all, I’m looking to sell a plot of land near Pune. Can you give some tips on what I should expect from the buyer in terms of documents. And also if some one could give me a brief detail of the selling procedure. I just want the sale to be clear and transparent as we are selling to a buyer who we are not familiar with. Thi is the first time we are doing such a deal so we are clueless. Any help or tips would be highly appreciated.

You can ask him for either bank statement of funds or a sanction letter from the bank if he is taking a loan. This he can provide at his will - if he is a co-operative one, he will provide. Otherwise, you can't do a lot. This is not applicable for the X component.

Better to engage a good broker who has a reputation in that area. Also have some trust in humans. Having a mutual connect/friend/relative with the buyer helps at times but that may not always be possible.

[green_ninja]

Originally Posted by adithya.kp

So far, I have not been convinced with the seller. I think he is hiding something. This is an acquired property. I know that technically his children don't need to sign. But when I asked if they could sign, he got very upset. He now tells me, why am asking so many questions, lets cancel the deal if I don't trust him.

You are well within your right to ask his children to sign it and he is well within his right to deny it albeit with a satisfactory explanation why his children don't need to sign it and you can get confirmation from your lawyer if that explanation is valid. Rest is all posturing and pressure tactics to confuse you. If he gives any lip about cancelling the deal, call his bluff out and threaten to walk out unless you have paid him a hefty advance. Then you are kind of stuck.

Since this is an independent house which is more complex than an apartment, I wanted do some more checks. 1. Can a good lawyer detect forgery of documents/signatures by looking at the photo copy and original?. May not be fool proof. But to some extent. 2. To my knowledge EC will record the official pledging. But what if the seller has a lot of unofficial pledging? How does one find it out?. 3. In the event of insolvency (seller's business), can the creditors claim his old properties even though they are not pledged?

Yes. A good lawyer can detect a forgery if there are discrepancies in the documents unless the guy is very good at forging. If you have reason to believe that he may pledged his documents with a local financier, you can always ask to inspect the original documents and he is obligated to show them to you. I will ask for his purchase deed, the parent document for the above purchase deed and any previous parent documents plus the property tax assessment order, plot and building approval order etc. I will ask for the above even if I don't have reason to believe they are pledged because it is easy to forge photocopies. If he won't show it to you walk away. You can be very sure that property is under some sort of lien somewhere.

Originally Posted by Ragavsr

Most sellers would want cash to be handed over at their place and if I am selling I would do the same as well. The Document writer whom the buyer is paying off is no neutral place. As such there is no safety or guarantee for the cash and no safety if the cash is transferred at a third party place where the buyer could setup goons and snatch the cash.

Well. The seller could do the same and not sign the papers! You may have watched one too many movies. Not all deals have previous registered agreements where the buyer could enforce the deal. The document writer's office is where cash exchange happens in a lot of the deals and they are pretty safe. BTW the seller usually comes with family/friends to protect his money.

[Ragavsr]

Originally Posted by green_ninja

The document writer's office is where cash exchange happens in a lot of the deals and they are pretty safe.

High value cash transfers are always done at the sellers's place as cash has to be counted and that can't be done comfortably for larger sums at a random place. Low value transactions can be done anywhere like a car or a document writer's office. Frankly , it's one of the many terms I lay out to the buyer while striking the deal. I usually sell on my T&C,I am never desperate to sell.

Oh and goons being stationed to steal money by the buyer is quite common and it can happen after the registration has taken place while the seller is returning back. Far too many real life incidents have taken place around register offices. Just don't think from a buyer's perspective, you might also sell a property some day.

[Sran]

Originally Posted by raycers_honda

Hi all, I’m looking to sell a plot of land near Pune. Can you give some tips on what I should expect from the buyer in terms of documents. And also if some one could give me a brief detail of the selling procedure. I just want the sale to be clear and transparent as we are selling to a buyer who we are not familiar with. Thi is the first time we are doing such a deal so we are clueless. Any help or tips would be highly appreciated.

Set the duration of agreement clearly whether its 3 months or 6 months(not more this). Fix the price, mention the whole amount in agreement regardless of white or black. The buyer will keep the original agreement copy and you will get the photocopy. The format(draft) is generally similar for all, if you wish to know it before hand go to any civil court and ask any typist or agent for the standard draft. No agreement is valid unless signed by 2 witnesses. If you are working then legally you have to be on leave to sign the agreement even as a witness or sign it on holiday/sunday. Sign agreement only when you recieve some amount of money, minimum 20% of the agreed amount. You and buyer will also sign on the border side of the agreement paper. Everytime you will recieve an installment you will have to write it on the agreement clearly and duly sign it with date. Also get a photocopy of identity proof of buyer. If possible go visit his house for a cup of tea.

On the day of registration keep two passport size photo, original aadhar and pan card along with a set of photocopy of both. You will be taken to registrar's office and the officer will ask if the payment has been done and you are selling it without any undue pressure. Make sure you recieve full and final payment before the registration date. Never ever sign before the full payment however convincing the buyer may sound. Then your fingerprint will be taken along with photo and you will be given a reciept. This reciept is very important, if the buyer is taking a loan the bank's officer will take this reciept from you.

This is how it happens in Bihar. We also have a tradition here; seller will take as many people with them as possible, some will take 10-20 people with them and eat their heart out. There are numerous hotels around registrar's office specially for this and everyone will keep on eating, the bill may sometime cross 10-15000rs(depends on number of people). So take as many people with you as possible and eat everything you can get.

[green_ninja]

Originally Posted by Ragavsr

High value cash transfers are always done at the sellers's place as cash has to be counted and that can't be done comfortably for larger sums at a random place. Low value transactions can be done anywhere like a car or a document writer's office. Frankly , it's one of the many terms I lay out to the buyer while striking the deal. I usually sell on my T&C,I am never desperate to sell.

Oh and goons being stationed to steal money by the buyer is quite common and it can happen after the registration has taken place while the seller is returning back. Far too many real life incidents have taken place around register offices. Just don't think from a buyer's perspective, you might also sell a property some day.

Where I come from reputed document writer's offices have multiple cash machines and the privacy to finish the transaction in comfort. Signatures are taken there and the registration is done immediately. There are too many cases where the seller doesn't show up at the register office after he is paid and there is zilch that the buyer can do at that point. Oh and real estate is how I make a part of my living! I sell more than you might expect.

[Ragavsr]

Originally Posted by green_ninja

Where I come from reputed document writer's offices have multiple cash machines and the privacy to finish the transaction in comfort. Signatures are taken there and the registration is done immediately. There are too many cases where the seller doesn't show up at the register office after he is paid and there is zilch that the buyer can do at that point. Oh and real estate is how I make a part of my living! I sell more than you might expect.

Usually buyers when they pay upfront at the seller's place, expect the seller to accompany them in their vehicle. That's what we insist , when we buy as well. We haven't had buyers who didn't agree to payment at our place model. So haven't had to explore the facilities at document writer offices.

[One]

Originally Posted by adithya.kp

This is an acquired property. I know that technically his children don't need to sign. But when I asked if they could sign, he got very upset.

(Not a lawyer but have gone through this aspect multiple times during transactions and below is my understanding. Nothing below is legal advice)

The key aspect here is source of funds for a self-acquired property. For example: if a person has borrowed money from his parents and then purchased a property, then it is not deemed to be a self acquired property. Now obviously we can't know the source of funds and hence, taking signatures from legal heirs on no interest in property is a safe option. In an unlucky scenario, litigation takes years and have witnessed it span across generations as well.

Obviously a lot of sellers have an attitude of take-it-or-leave-it. I personally don't subscribe to this method as I think the seller should also be "gentlemanly" and remove apprehensions for a buyer (that's the difference between a good seller and a seller). But this doesn't happen all the time and then it all boils down to judgement calls (plus luck).

Unfortunately there's no right answer here, you can ask and a reasonable seller shouldn't have any issues in understanding that they are the recipient of money and you are the one who will be with the property. On the other hand, if the seller is adamant, no one can advise you on what is the right call as it becomes extremely subjective.

He now tells me, why am asking so many questions, lets cancel the deal if I don't trust him.

This would be said by anyone- a genuine seller and a person with malicious intent. However you may want to introspect if you are being careful or extra vigilant. Not saying it is valid in this case or not but sometimes have noticed some buyers (especially first time ones) being unnecessarily vigilant due to lack of knowledge. In those cases, they should first equip themselves with proper information on the process and then approach the seller from a position of knowledge.

All the best

[CarNerd]

Does anyone know if a B- Khata plot can be sold in Bangalore now as there is news regarding regularisation of B- Khata properties shortly. I heard that they can't be sold before conversion. Does anyone know the difference between B- Khata and Gramthana property? It seems we need to take some course in Indian Properties before we understand the million terms we have.

[Ragavsr]

Originally Posted by One

The key aspect here is source of funds for a self-acquired property. For example: if a person has borrowed money from his parents and then purchased a property, then it is not deemed to be a self acquired property. Now obviously we can't know the source of funds and hence, taking signatures from legal heirs on no interest in property is a safe option. In an unlucky scenario, litigation takes years and have witnessed it span across generations as well.

Obviously a lot of sellers have an attitude of take-it-or-leave-it. I personally don't subscribe to this method as I think the seller should also be "gentlemanly" and remove apprehensions for a buyer (that's the difference between a good seller and a seller). But this doesn't happen all the time and then it all boils down to judgement calls (plus luck).

This is the correct interpretation of the law but the source of funds can't be ascertained, it's better the courts summarily throw out cases filed by legal heirs on self acquired properties and grant ownership simply based on title name.(as in properties registered directly on the seller's name and not obtained through gift deeds or partition deeds ). Such cases filed are anyways rare and I have a family of lawyers and no one has actually come across a judgement in favour of such frivolous claims. The law can't be so ambiguous.

It's simply harassment of the seller and downright stripping away his property rights as an individual. Just because I have kids, doesn't mean I should be at the mercy of them to sell my own acquired property. You don't necessarily have to be on good terms with your kids. Frankly, any buyer making such borderline illegal demands should be shown the door and chucked out of the negotiating table.

Also, the OP in this case is downright character assassinating the seller. Just like OP has his doubts, the seller is also within his rights to think the buyer might be a fraud or a cheat. Lot of buyers in India think people selling properties are desperate and must fulfill every demand of theirs This stems from an age old mentality where property was sold as a last resort unlike today where properties are brought as investments and sold and reinvested often. And with morons like that, take it or leave it is the only option that works.