On Corruption in India

jat · 18th December 2008, 15:26

tsk:
You are right. No country in the world can claim that it is 100% corruption free. But since the performance is high, people on the whole are not so much affected negatively. Life standard automatically goesm but cost does not go up like that.

Transparency and Grievances Redressal has always existed in one form or other, but it did not make any difference as there was no accountability.

I will quote the example of appuchan. If the road is to be built, all the top guys who are planning should be held accountable for few simple things/bench marks:
1. The road should not get crowded within a couple of years of being built.
2. The time frame should be within a reasonable limit, say can't go more than 10% of the planned state.
3. The road maintenance cost should be within reasonable limit for a given time frame. It should not start breaking down very fast
4. The road singal system should be accurate
5. The cost of build should be within reasonable limits
6. The recovery of cost (toll system) should be practical (This is the most useless system in India, even the countries which are considered to be more backward compared to India has better and logical system in place)

Once such bench marks are set, and people are held accountable, you will see that performance will automatically improve, although corruption will not be completly eliminated.

Put accountability in place and you will see that most of subsidies will disappear very fast.

sbasak · 18th December 2008, 16:01

Quote:

The last I heard people were paid 150 Rs and three packs of biryani per day to attend rallies.

I must say that was pretty genereous. In W. Bengal, Communist party usually pays Rs 50 + dal/chawl (no biriyani) per head for attending their rallies.
(It was 2006 rate, might need adjustment as per inflation

)

Quote:

Why do people think education will make any difference.

Yes - it will definitely make a difference as people will exercise their right by logic rather than propaganda.

If you read the book "Naked Economics - understanding dismal science" it nicely explains why poor country remains poor because of corruption and lack of education.
Amazon.com: Naked Economics: Undressing the Dismal Science: Charles Wheelan: Books

Quote:

On a sidenote, corruption exists in developed countries also

True, but at much lower scale (not at every level like in India). In developed countries, corruptions are usually at high official levels not at grass root level.

Having said so, in cities like London/Paris etc. a lot of people use public transport without paying any fare (by jumping underground gates etc.)

kuttapan · 19th December 2008, 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbasak

True, but at much lower scale (not at every level like in India). In developed countries, corruptions are usually at high official levels not at grass root level.

Having said so, in cities like London/Paris etc. a lot of people use public transport without paying any fare (by jumping underground gates etc.)

True, we have corruption at the grassroot level. From the chaprasi to the maid to the auto driver to the government official, everyone expects baksheesh, over and in addition to services rendered. And in some cases, plain bribe where no money is required at all.

As someone said, it is in the genes. Our basic attitude is why we find our country where it is. A few good individuals cannot the nation change. We need a revolution, a shakedown.

When I was a kid, I used to consider it great if I could escape the eyes of the bus conductor and save the fare. Until I realised the error of my ways and started calling the conductor and paying the fare. Change has to come from within. Education can lead you there, but one has to open his eyes to see light.

zaks · 19th December 2008, 08:05

I have seen that e-governance can go a long way in reducing the scope for corruption. The other important remedy that has been said by others here is transparency in dealings and clear accountability.

But add to this what I feel is most important effective prosecution of guilty. There has to be a high cost for indulging in corruption or else whoever the person there is always the temptation..

maverick030581 · 19th December 2008, 09:44

@zaks - I could not agree more,the law probably plays the most important part in minimising corruption.One only needs to look at the US legal system to understand why it is still the dream destination for most people.No one is above the law.No one.The entire process is so transparent and so fair.Even in other instances,how much they value transparency is clearly evident.eg-Every police car having a cam in it and every cop has to talk to all suspects in front of the car so everything can be recorded.So there is no way even the cops can get away with anything.Compare that to Mumbai cops - arrogant,overweight,stupid,condescending,uncouth,r ude,I could go on and on.

agentsmith2 · 28th December 2008, 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by DKG

So its a case of no hope for India?

Yes, and not. First - what India do you talk of my friend ?

Half of our districts are living under a Maoist threat or siege
Most districts east of the longitude that passes Kanpur/Chennai are classified as poor
JK / North-East doesn't actively contribute to any state/national tax. The tax collection machinery there is virtually non-existent.
and so on.
25% of us - that's 1 out of every 4 Indian - lives under the poverty line.

The India our politicians rule lives in the villages.

The India that pays the taxes is us. And our vote doesn't count. This - my friend - is called taxation without representation - and it has lead to many a revolutions before.

Having said that, I think there is hope. I'm told by my elders how India Gandhi ushered India into the green revolution, and how things were pretty gloomy in the mid-70s - but turned around quick. And how she stood upto pakistan et al.

We just need two or three good 5 year terms with a terrific leader who enjoys a majority. Things can change quick. Who would've thought in 1998 that India would become the IT backoffice of the world. Yet in 10 years it did.

There's a flip side to it as well - 5 years with the same lame-duck govt, and we might sink into anarchy. What with all the recession, corruption, regionalism, MNS bashing, Porkistan sponsored terrorism - we might end up worse.

I'd say next time there are elections, please go out and vote. You owe it to your kids.

BaCkSeAtDrIVeR · 28th December 2008, 23:29

Corruption due to politicians. Corruption due to lack of accountability. Corruption because we do not vote. Corruption because there is no education. Nice to hear all these reasons and solutions.

How many of us would acknowledge that corruption is illegal? And there are courts to deal with it? And how many of us would acknowledge that the judiciary are (1) inadequate in number (2) understaffed (3) lack basic infrastructure. (4) That our politicians have a reason to keep the courts that way.

Are willing to ask the politician who approaches you for your "valuable" vote the simple question - "What will you do for the judiciary?" ??

Dump him, if he is talking about tribunals, high court / supreme court benches etc. These courts are only for the politicians themselves; and tribunals are sinecures for retired govt. servants.

Ask him about the simple magistrate courts where we will be prosecuted when we jump the red light. (having more magistrate courts will make life easier for us next time a false case is hoisted against us). The magistrate also happens to be the same court where the corrupt official is brought to answer the charges (and later on sent to the sessions / district court for trial, if the magistrate is convinced that a preliminary case is made out).

Samurai · 28th December 2008, 23:37

Just voting won't help. I voted in the last assembly election and it didn't help reduce any corruption.

Karnataka is the 4th most corrupt state in the country and my district was voted as the most corrupt district in Karnataka by the previous lokayukta Mr.Venkatachala.

There isn't a single government department here that works without bribe. The situation is so pathetic, it is plain disgusting. And please don't tell me even the bribe giver is wrong. That is only applicable in the case when you want some unfair favour or illegal act done by the government official. For example, bribing a official to overlook a violation. What about the cases where you need some routine stuff like new electrical connection, or registering a property or deed, or renewing a license which don't involve any violation. None of these routine processes will go forward unless the wheels are greased. They simply won't. You either have to turn activist or just pay up and continue with life. Most choose the latter because fighting the government doesn't come cheap.

diabloo · 19th February 2009, 12:30

How much money has do Indians have in their Swiss Bank personal accounts?
Guess...

Its $1.5 Trillion dollars !!!

Bank deposits in the territory of Switzerland by nationals of following countries:

India---- -$1456 billion
Russia----$ 470 billion
UK-------$390 billion
Ukraine-- $100 billion
China-----$ 96 billion

So, dishonest industrialists, scandalous politicians and corrupt IAS, IRS, IPS officers have deposited in foreign banks in their illegal personal accounts a sum of about $ 1500 billion, which have been misappropriated by them.

Most of the wealth of Indians parked in these tax havens is illegitimate money acquired through corrupt means. Naturally, the secrecy associated with the bank accounts in such places is central to the issue.

Is India poor, who says? Ask Swiss banks

And people still wonder why most Indians are still poor or India's infrasture is in wretched state.

Brabus E V12 · 19th February 2009, 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabloo

How much money has do Indians have in their Swiss Bank personal accounts?
Guess...

Its $1.5 Trillion dollars !!!

Bank deposits in the territory of Switzerland by nationals of following countries:

India---- -$1456 billion

Is India poor, who says? Ask Swiss banks

And people still wonder why most Indians are still poor or India's infrasture is in wretched state.

I don't know what to write here. All this time I thought we could do something about our country by atleast changing ourselves. But this has completely bogged me down. :-(

Sorry but according to me there is only one solution - what they did in Rang De Basanti. Otherwise we'll just end up sitting and discussing while that figure will double itself.

Any other suggestions?

SirAlec · 19th February 2009, 18:25

read this two article on wikipedia

Corruption in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indian political scandals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BomBatt · 19th February 2009, 20:28

Guys, there seems to be a hope...

::... Welcome to Professionals Party of India......

If you guys are really serious, at least check their website thoroughly.

I have vowed to myself that I am going to vote for them if they put up a candidate in my area.

Brabus E V12 · 19th February 2009, 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by BomBatt

Guys, there seems to be a hope...

::... Welcome to Professionals Party of India......

If you guys are really serious, at least check their website thoroughly.

I have vowed to myself that I am going to vote for them if they put up a candidate in my area.

Hmm now that does look promising. I for one will atleast let my friends and family know about it. Atleast someone is doing something for our country. The least we can do is support it by voting for them.

Voting for them is atleast better than not voting at all.

Thanks for that BomBatt.

diabloo · 20th February 2009, 11:44

That might truly happen. Long ago only select indulged in it. Now that it has percolated to lowest level, it might actually double in less time.

My solution would be privatization of Govt services, since its lesser evil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brabus E V12

Otherwise we'll just end up sitting and discussing while that figure will double itself.

Spitfire · 20th February 2009, 12:13

Guys please register and put in your suggestions on that site.

I have been asked to be a part of the Goa region and we have an event on the 22nd there. Hopefully more people get to know of this.

Please check events section for more information for your locations.

18th December 2008, 15:26	#31
jat BHPian Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: SINGAPORE Posts: 266 Thanked: 7 Times	tsk: You are right. No country in the world can claim that it is 100% corruption free. But since the performance is high, people on the whole are not so much affected negatively. Life standard automatically goesm but cost does not go up like that. Transparency and Grievances Redressal has always existed in one form or other, but it did not make any difference as there was no accountability. I will quote the example of appuchan. If the road is to be built, all the top guys who are planning should be held accountable for few simple things/bench marks: 1. The road should not get crowded within a couple of years of being built. 2. The time frame should be within a reasonable limit, say can't go more than 10% of the planned state. 3. The road maintenance cost should be within reasonable limit for a given time frame. It should not start breaking down very fast 4. The road singal system should be accurate 5. The cost of build should be within reasonable limits 6. The recovery of cost (toll system) should be practical (This is the most useless system in India, even the countries which are considered to be more backward compared to India has better and logical system in place) Once such bench marks are set, and people are held accountable, you will see that performance will automatically improve, although corruption will not be completly eliminated. Put accountability in place and you will see that most of subsidies will disappear very fast. Last edited by jat : 18th December 2008 at 15:28.
	() Thanks

19th December 2008, 08:05	#34
zaks BANNED Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Bangalore Posts: 952 Thanked: 181 Times View My Garage	I have seen that e-governance can go a long way in reducing the scope for corruption. The other important remedy that has been said by others here is transparency in dealings and clear accountability. But add to this what I feel is most important effective prosecution of guilty. There has to be a high cost for indulging in corruption or else whoever the person there is always the temptation..
	() Thanks

19th December 2008, 09:44	#35
maverick030581 BHPian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Mumbai Posts: 198 Thanked: 2 Times	@zaks - I could not agree more,the law probably plays the most important part in minimising corruption.One only needs to look at the US legal system to understand why it is still the dream destination for most people.No one is above the law.No one.The entire process is so transparent and so fair.Even in other instances,how much they value transparency is clearly evident.eg-Every police car having a cam in it and every cop has to talk to all suspects in front of the car so everything can be recorded.So there is no way even the cops can get away with anything.Compare that to Mumbai cops - arrogant,overweight,stupid,condescending,uncouth,r ude,I could go on and on.
	() Thanks

28th December 2008, 23:29	#37
BaCkSeAtDrIVeR Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Kochi Posts: 2,541 Thanked: 755 Times	Corruption due to politicians. Corruption due to lack of accountability. Corruption because we do not vote. Corruption because there is no education. Nice to hear all these reasons and solutions. How many of us would acknowledge that corruption is illegal? And there are courts to deal with it? And how many of us would acknowledge that the judiciary are (1) inadequate in number (2) understaffed (3) lack basic infrastructure. (4) That our politicians have a reason to keep the courts that way. Are willing to ask the politician who approaches you for your "valuable" vote the simple question - "What will you do for the judiciary?" ?? Dump him, if he is talking about tribunals, high court / supreme court benches etc. These courts are only for the politicians themselves; and tribunals are sinecures for retired govt. servants. Ask him about the simple magistrate courts where we will be prosecuted when we jump the red light. (having more magistrate courts will make life easier for us next time a false case is hoisted against us). The magistrate also happens to be the same court where the corrupt official is brought to answer the charges (and later on sent to the sessions / district court for trial, if the magistrate is convinced that a preliminary case is made out).
	() Thanks

28th December 2008, 23:37	#38
Samurai Team-BHP Support Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bangalore/Udupi Posts: 25,952 Thanked: 47,317 Times View My Garage	Just voting won't help. I voted in the last assembly election and it didn't help reduce any corruption. Karnataka is the 4th most corrupt state in the country and my district was voted as the most corrupt district in Karnataka by the previous lokayukta Mr.Venkatachala. There isn't a single government department here that works without bribe. The situation is so pathetic, it is plain disgusting. And please don't tell me even the bribe giver is wrong. That is only applicable in the case when you want some unfair favour or illegal act done by the government official. For example, bribing a official to overlook a violation. What about the cases where you need some routine stuff like new electrical connection, or registering a property or deed, or renewing a license which don't involve any violation. None of these routine processes will go forward unless the wheels are greased. They simply won't. You either have to turn activist or just pay up and continue with life. Most choose the latter because fighting the government doesn't come cheap.
	() Thanks

19th February 2009, 12:30	#39
diabloo BANNED Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bengalooru Posts: 1,480 Thanked: 17 Times	How much money has do Indians have in their Swiss Bank personal accounts? Guess... Its $1.5 Trillion dollars !!! Bank deposits in the territory of Switzerland by nationals of following countries: India---- -$1456 billion Russia----$ 470 billion UK-------$390 billion Ukraine-- $100 billion China-----$ 96 billion So, dishonest industrialists, scandalous politicians and corrupt IAS, IRS, IPS officers have deposited in foreign banks in their illegal personal accounts a sum of about $ 1500 billion, which have been misappropriated by them. Most of the wealth of Indians parked in these tax havens is illegitimate money acquired through corrupt means. Naturally, the secrecy associated with the bank accounts in such places is central to the issue. Is India poor, who says? Ask Swiss banks And people still wonder why most Indians are still poor or India's infrasture is in wretched state.
	() Thanks

19th February 2009, 18:25	#41
SirAlec Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: zxc Posts: 3,395 Thanked: 727 Times	read this two article on wikipedia Corruption in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Indian political scandals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
	() Thanks

19th February 2009, 20:28	#42
BomBatt BHPian Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bangalore Posts: 208 Thanked: 35 Times	Guys, there seems to be a hope... ::... Welcome to Professionals Party of India...... If you guys are really serious, at least check their website thoroughly. I have vowed to myself that I am going to vote for them if they put up a candidate in my area. Last edited by BomBatt : 19th February 2009 at 20:37.
	() Thanks

20th February 2009, 12:13	#45
Spitfire BANNED Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Panaji - Goa/Bangalore - Karnataka Posts: 3,313 Thanked: 777 Times	Guys please register and put in your suggestions on that site. I have been asked to be a part of the Goa region and we have an event on the 22nd there. Hopefully more people get to know of this. Please check events section for more information for your locations.
	() Thanks