[Deamon0508]

Originally Posted by alpha1

To all those contemplating or in path of immigrating to foreign lands: what is it that you really hate about India that made you decide to leave?

As other people have said earlier, hate is a strong word for the sentiment but let me take a stab at it as well.
I spent a couple of years in Japan and a couple of years in England, both of these long-ish excursions changed me as a person. The assertiveness and borderline aggression that is necessary in India, simply isn't required to get anything done there.
For me, the linchpin for this discussion is the low value for human life, and the corruption in the system. And it's not dealt with only when applying for a passport every 10 years, it's a daily occurrence, look at the roads we travel on, the piles of garbage we cross, the quality of infrastructure we build, the policemen we 'fear'. And the 'culture' we brag about, doesn't hold a candle to the kind of daily road rage, or physical intimidation, or sexual predation, among others.
A person with clout and monies can get away with financial embezzlement, tax aversion, rape or even murder, that's just the baabu culture that we have promoted for decades and decades, and it isn't going away anytime soon.
As a hard-working tax paying citizen, I don't despise the taxes I pay, I despise how little how everyone else gets away with.

Given a realistic chance, I wouldn't want to raise my kid amongst such an atmosphere and values. Anyone not contemplating emigration is either constrained, which I completely and totally understand, or is in a loop of myopic self-righteousness.

[Anotherone666]

Emigrating to a foreign land for a long duration of time (for work or study) is completely perspective based. Many people find going to foreign land a very good opportunity to earn money, the amount which can never be earned in India in a certain period of time.

However, for those who have well settled jobs in India or well settled family business then those people would never find fulfilling to live in a foreign land for a long period of time. Initial days will be fun because of travelling, exploring new places, meeting new people, partying with people from all around the world. Then after the initial phase its nothing but missing friends, family, home, food & speaking our mother tongue. Hence, single person moving to a foreign country who does not have the necessity to make money in less duration of time must always give it a second thought and can just travel as tourist rather than relocating for a longer period of time.

[akhil_007]

Originally Posted by alpha1

To all those contemplating or in path of immigrating to foreign lands: what is it that you really hate about India that made you decide to leave?

Not so openly talked about yet plausible reason. I have seen this happen to multiple friends and they have decided to settle abroad.

1. Husband and Wife could not get along with respective in-laws. Even though they stayed in different cities than in-laws, extended visits during Summer(unbearable heat in their hometown being the excuse), occasional visit to spend time with family, festivals and functions resulted in lot of friction. When not visiting, even simple things as phone calls resulted in tension at home for my friend and spouse. They had to get away from in-laws and extended family for peace of mind. This motivated them to relocate and settle in New Zealand. They seem happy and during my conversation mention that clean air, good roads, friendly people are new items added to Motivation List. Income wise, it was good during initial days due to exchange value but it is no longer attractive. Reason being low hike YOY, rising cost of living and the No Clear Career Progression Path

2. Couple had issues because in-laws were in involved in constant one-upmanship to prove they were Well Off Financially. This took a hit on the couple's sanity and they relocated to Germany along with kids. Wife had to quit the job but they accepted the fact and adapted to German lifestyle. Kids are happy, wife found a job in supermarket that keeps her happy. They have good stream of income from investments in India so they are not too worried about income part

There are atleast 3 more such instances that I am aware of. So yeah, this might be one of the reasons

[androdev]

Originally Posted by GandalfTheGrey

Thank you for you reply. Now this is interesting. This line of thought and way of life makes more sense. This is akin to the saying never put all your eggs in one basket.

IMHO, it's very simple. As someone who grew up in India, if you wish to live a life with the least amount of compromises, I feel it's makes a lot of sense to have India in your future plans. You may not appreciate all the intangibles in India when you are in your 20s and 30s but it won't be long before you wish you hadn't cut the umbilical cord.

Chapter 1. Go abroad for higher studies and early work years - fabulous period to be abroad for pleasure and profit.
Chapter 2. Be in India when kids start school and till they reach grade 12 - if you don't over stress them about academic performance, they'll have a blast - full of friends and close family members. Elders enjoy company of kids a lot.
Chapter 3. Depending on the age of your parents, what your children wish to do - you can review your options and live in the country that best suits you.
Chapter 4. Camp near grandchildren in whatever country they are in. Circle of life, kind of.

I'm not patriotic by any stretch of imagination and consider myself an opportunist. To portray India as a country of rapes, corruption, pollution, etc. that must be escaped from shows a lack of appreciation for a country that's an entire world unto itself. You find a corner in the world that is the most oppressive, the most dangerous, the most underdeveloped, the most opulent, the most beautiful or the most cheerful, chances are you will find a close enough match in India. As a brown skinned person, that's hardly welcome anywhere no matter how affluent I become, I consider fortunate to belong to this country. Not for patriotic reasons, but I get access to all the incredible things this country has. Being a well-to-do Indian in India is the next best thing to be a white European in Europe I think. I would love to be in Europe but only as a local white person.

[car love]

Originally Posted by androdev

IMHO, it's very simple. As someone who grew up in India, if you wish to live a life with the least amount of compromises, I feel it's makes a lot of sense to have India in your future plans. You may not appreciate all the intangibles in India when you are in your 20s and 30s but it won't be long before you wish you hadn't cut the umbilical cord.

One of the best summations of this thread. There is subtle if not direct everyday racism that you have to encounter almost on a daily basis in the West. Either one has an extremely thick skin like one of my friends does and not bother about it or you just can't handle it. Period. Some of the small stuff I've seen like the waitress in a buffet place unwilling to serve me, the bus driver who is looking at me like what you doing in my country and won't give change, the security guard who won't open a gate for a short cut route only for me but opens it for the whites etc gets to you.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by alpha1

To all those contemplating or in path of immigrating to foreign lands: what is it that you really hate about India that made you decide to leave?

Many similar questions

1. To all those contemplating or in path of moving out of their hometown, what is it you really hate about your hometown
2. To all those contemplating on in the path of moving out of your parents home, what is it you hate about them....

see the pattern? People don't move here and there because of hate. most migration from India to a foreign land is for a better life, which can be economic, environmental, social...

[androdev]

Originally Posted by car love

One of the best summations of this thread. There is subtle if not direct everyday racism that you have to encounter almost on a daily basis in the West. Either one has an extremely thick skin like one of my friends does and not bother about it or you just can't handle it. Period. Some of the small stuff I've seen like the waitress in a buffet place unwilling to serve me, the bus driver who is looking at me like what you doing in my country and won't give change, the security guard who won't open a gate for a short cut route only for me but opens it for the whites etc gets to you.

I agree with your observations. We must also be the first to admit that a vast majority of India is far worse when it comes to prejudice and discrimination. Across the world, people are both perpetrators and victims of varying degree depending on the time and place.

I have no interest in making a social critique of different countries but I have given a lot of thought to selecting the best ingredients from different countries to cook a good life. The two ingredients - higher education and travel experiences - are best sourced from the West. Source of other ingredients depends on individual circumstances.

[pedrolourenco]

Originally Posted by alpha1

To all those contemplating or in path of immigrating to foreign lands: what is it that you really hate about India that made you decide to leave?

As others have said hate is a harsh word.

Thing's I don't like about India:
- Corruption.
- Lack of civic sense and basic manners.
- Bad quality infrastructure.
- Poor levels of cleanliness.
- High crime rate.
- Lack of inclusiveness (A lot of people fail to understand it's a diverse country. No one culture, language or food can claim to represent India. If you consider a region a part of India, you need to accept everyone, their food, culture and language as "Indian").

Originally Posted by roy_libran

One should not need to HATE, to be able to contemplate a move to a place that offers something that they don't see the prospect for here. Everyone's assessment and psychology is different, so why debate?

+1

Originally Posted by sreerknair

Once one enjoy these in a foreign country, and these are things one value more in life, it is hard to ignore the chaos while in India.

Once you live abroad it's difficult to re-adjust to India.

Originally Posted by vb-saan

There are virtues like courage, curiosity, opportunities, etc. that influence the decision.

All won't be applicable to me at this age but for my son, these would be the reasons I'd want him to move.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by androdev

As a brown skinned person, that's hardly welcome anywhere no matter how affluent I become, I consider fortunate to belong to this country. Not for patriotic reasons, but I get access to all the incredible things this country has. Being a well-to-do Indian in India is the next best thing to be a white European in Europe I think. I would love to be in Europe but only as a local white person.

Hello androdev,

Without the right context I'm unable to comprehend the following statement in 2024, "a brown skinned person, that's hardly welcome anywhere no matter how affluent I become..".

If it is ok for you to share, could you please let us know if you experienced racism/prejudice because of your skin colour in a foreign country in recent times? I'm sorry to know if that had happened. If that's not the case, then what gives?

The below isn't in direct response to your personal experience, which of course I'm not aware of yet. However, I would like to address the issue of someone feeling they don't belong somewhere because of X, Y or Z reason.

Consider the following two people,

• Raja studied in Tamil medium till Year-12 in a rural village that doesn't have internet. His family is poor. He scored top marks and earned his place in a top private engineering college in metropolitan Chennai.
• Rani comes from a similar background, has dark skin (I hate to refer to the skin colour but I have to in this context), can't speak Hindi, but has aced her engineering degree and got placed in a MNC in cosmopolitan Gurgaon. She's never crossed TN border in her life before.

Do you?

• Project your personal insecurities on them, scare them, lower their self-confidence, make them feel like they don't belong in a metropolitan or cosmopolitan setting because of their skin colour or similar antiquated thoughts.
• Make them aware of the challenges, take measures to build their confidence/self-esteem, courage, language skills, and instil the value that the freaking skin colour and family background doesn't determine their worth in the society. As long as they have rightfully earned their place in the society, then they very bloody well should feel they belong wherever they are.

I have an issue with fellow Indians talking down migrants about their worth. When I was planning my move, a friend told me that even though I was a Manager in India, I shouldn't expect to be a Lead/Manager in a foreign country, since he's been working in that country for a long time and white skin > brown skin, and I can't break the glass ceiling. Challenge accepted. I have worked abroad earlier and I didn't see the world his way. I spoke to numerous people in Australia (multiple nationals) and sought their advice to tailor my job-search approach. Guess what? I did get a leadership role in my first job. My point is, thanks for your caution but please don't be the gate keeper of others dreams and goals based on your personal reservations.

If it helps, here's an actual example of a question-answer that I used and also recommend to others asking me how to navigate this situation.

Recruiter/Interviewer to Candidate: Sorry, you don't get this job because you don't have local experience.

Candidate to Recruiter/Interviewer: Yes, I don't have the local experience as yet. However, I come with global experience. I've worked for Company names/Client names/Country names for Y years and I will leverage this global expertise to provide better solutions to problems that the local candidates may not be exposed to. Here’s an example for Client/Project/Country (Apply STAR technique with tangible benefits).

One has to be comfortable and confident in their own skin anywhere. You don't need to forget/hide your heritage to be part of a richer/cooler community. Inanimate things like Rolexes, iPhones and Porsches can't substitute for humble but raw self-confidence. The gentleman in the Indian rupee note gets worldwide respect for his actions, and not for what he wore. Closer home, that’s what I’ve learnt from my great-grand parents, grand parents and parents.

In my experience, Indians abroad get a lot of respect and appreciation for highly-skilled labour (E.g. Doctors, Engineers etc..), rich culture and traditions which is shared with others mainly through food. Don’t get me wrong. More doors open as you get richer and affluent, but I disagree with the assertion that a brown skinned person is hardly welcome anywhere even if affluent.

Also, one can be sad and miserable owning acres of land in one country, but be happy and content driving trucks in another country. Pick your own path to happiness.

I’ll finish with a immigrant success story.

• Data centre business AirTrunk is set to change hands after a A$23 billion-plus deal was finalised between the Sydney-based business and US private equity group Blackstone and Canada Pension Plan Investment Board. This is one of the largest acquisitions of an Australian company and the biggest acquisition deal of 2024 so far.
• Founded in 2015 by Robin Khuda, the entrepreneur’s journey is a reflection of the changing meaning of what it means to be an Australian founder.
• Khuda came to the land down under from Bangladesh when he was 18, to study accounting at the University of Technology Sydney, then went on to secure his MBA in finance from the Manchester Business School in the UK and further studies in the USA.
• Those familiar with his journey say the AirTrunk founder worked in the corporate world before taking the plunge into startup land by dipping into his retirement savings.
• The now 45-year-old tech entrepreneur has come a long way since then. In 2020, Macquarie Group’s infrastructure acquired a majority stake (88%) in AirTrunk in a deal valuing the data center operator at around $3 billion.

Varma said that Khuda is “part of a virtuous cycle of South Asian Australian founders who has lifted other people in the tech ecosystem and is known to give back to the community”. Khuda’s family set up the Khuda Family Foundation in 2020 with over $1 million earmarked to support women in STEM.

The news of AirTrunk’s blockbuster sale will serve as a reminder for other immigrant founders of the “kind of payday potential to look up to”.
Varma compared Khuda’s journey to Canva co-founder Melanie Perkins who is of Filipino and Sri Lankan descent, and said the deal would help buoy and inspire other startups.

“It will give rise to new heroes, and change what it means to be an Australian founder … people who come from diverse backgrounds,” Varma said.

Varma said the “virtuous cycle” built by Khuda will have “multiple spin-offs, continue to push boundaries and is a leap forward” for the startup community.

“It is inspiring and enlivening,” he said.
“Robin’s journey from Bangladesh to leading a global AI infrastructure giant underscores the extraordinary contributions immigrants are making to our economy.”

Rashid Khan, CEO and co-founder of Evacovation, an emergency management solution startup, said the news is “goal-setting for South Asian startups. Now we can see where the ceiling, the standard has been set for us to aspire to”.

“If you are unique, working in the community with a brilliant idea and are consistent, then you can achieve a bigger goal [like Khuda’s] and bring that vision to reality”.

Varma added South Asians are often pigeonholed into certain roles within the economy.
“Robin has built data centres… we’re not the people only on the other end of the phone. He’s the one running an entire global network,” Varma said.

“It shows we have the experience of building things from the ground, that’s really powerful, despite coming here with no networks, no connections.”
Varma said it shows the perseverance of South Asian founders.

Khan added that the news also shows the amount of jobs created by migrant founders in the Australian economy. “For every one job we take when we come, we create eight, 20, 100 or more,” he said.

Source: https://www.smartcompany.com.au/fina...lian-startups/

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by kiku007

The below isn't in direct response to your personal experience, which of course I'm not aware of yet. However, I would like to address the issue of someone feeling they don't belong somewhere because of X, Y or Z reason.

I don't believe he is referring to professional or financial success. In USA, Indians are financially the most successful ethnic group.

Yet, this happens to someone who is super successful: https://x.com/VivekGRamaswamy/status...65431616135304

You still get judged by the color of your skin, than the content of your character or bank account. In India nobody will mind your skin color once you are successful.

Actually VN had already answered the question:

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

To be brutally honest I did not migrate because at least in my case as a self-employed my income in actual purchasing capacity would have not changed much but my status as an important mongrel on my street would have fallen. In India, brutally speaking, I am {like many other Team BHPians} upper caste, male, privileged chap and a part of the top layer of social, financial and professional circles thanks to the leg up my parents provided me, thanks to my education and thanks to my batchmates who did well for themselves. I valued this position of big frog in a small pond and the ability as a mongrel to strut on my street and bark when I wish. In a Western country I would be a nobody.

When Vivek Ramaswamy ran in the replubican primary, he too discovered this. The republicans (half the country) loved his message, but didn't love him.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Hello androdev,

Hey @kiku007. I love your posts on this tread and they offer a lot of value to people interested in this topic. Apart from the usual banter which we all do, you also share very useful information and offer help on the ground to people interested in migrating. I appreciate that. This thread is not only about how to immigrate but also about why to immigrate and you don't seem to like the conversation about the latter part.

Without the right context I'm unable to comprehend the following statement in 2024, "a brown skinned person, that's hardly welcome anywhere no matter how affluent I become..".

If it is ok for you to share, could you please let us know if you experienced racism/prejudice because of your skin colour in a foreign country in recent times? I'm sorry to know if that had happened. If that's not the case, then what gives?

If you have to ask this, maybe your idea of "not welcome" requires seeing a board that says "No dogs and Indian are allowed". You are confusing the "welcome vibe" that you see with your colleagues and immediate neighbours with what happens everywhere in the world (not just Australia).

Let's say you are at the airport to catch a flight, the business class is overbooked and the airport staff has to request some passengers to downgrade to Economy class. Guess who they are going to approach first? Skin colour leads to the most blatant form of prejudice because unlike others (caste, religion, language, etc.) there is no way to conceal it.

As I said, some form of racism/prejudice exists everywhere. I just want to be in a place where things are in my favour.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by androdev

If you have to ask this, maybe your idea of "not welcome" requires seeing a board that says "No dogs and Indian are allowed".

Some can sense it acutely, some are oblivious towards it. Rest fall somewhere in between. I am someone who could sense it, so it became an issue for me.

From my post in 2022:

Originally Posted by Samurai

I was making 6 figures salary 20 years ago, with 12 years of experience, even had zero co-pay medical coverage for full family. I was well settled and employer was very very willing to file GC, and it was lot easier then. But I realised I will always be judged on skin color, rather than on who I am. I know it doesn't bother most people emigrating to USA, but it did bother me. I didn't want to put-up with it, nor subject my son to it.

[Engine_Roars]

I don't want to comment on emigration as it is a very personal choice however I would like to share my experience of facing racism, when I happen to visit Australia for a short period of 3 months. I have 2 such experiences,

1. We, a group of 5-6 Indians were visiting one of the beaches and obviously were communicating in Hindi. Mind you, it was just us communicating, having fun, no disrespect to anyone else, no pranking, no poking. One lady got triggered because we were speaking in Hindi and she literally asked us to shup up if we can't speak in English.

2. I was walking on my way to my home from office, with my headphones on, listening to some music. One car, with some college going kids, stop right in front of me, one guy gives me the middle finger and they take off. I think it was because of my skin color, but happy to be proven wrong.

I have visited many other countries but as a tourist and it has been pleasant but I think, equations change when you are working in any of the those countries. I personally, would not want to emigrate to any other country as I like the feeling of "Belongingness". I belong here, in India. Yes, Indians are racist too, but here I can fight back for my place because this is my land. I can not have done that back in Australia. This is why, India it is for me. It gives me the power to fight back, to call it my home.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by androdev

If you have to ask this, maybe your idea of "not welcome" requires seeing a board that says "No dogs and Indian are allowed". You are confusing the "welcome vibe" that you see with your colleagues and immediate neighbours with what happens everywhere in the world (not just Australia).

Thanks for confirming that you actually didn’t have any relevant personal experiences to share. At best it’s based on hearsay or assumed alleged discrimination. But that's your call.

I’ve lived in India for long enough to very well know what discrimination and made to feel unwelcome is.

If the below is the best that can be shared to support the statement, “As a brown skinned person, that's hardly welcome anywhere no matter how affluent I become”, then I’m sure readers can make their own judgement.

Originally Posted by androdev

Let's say you are at the airport to catch a flight, the business class is overbooked and the airport staff has to request some passengers to downgrade to Economy class. Guess who they are going to approach first? Skin colour leads to the most blatant form of prejudice because unlike others (caste, religion, language, etc.) there is no way to conceal it.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Yet, this happens to someone who is super successful: https://x.com/VivekGRamaswamy/status...65431616135304

You still get judged by the color of your skin, than the content of your character or bank account. In India nobody will mind your skin color once you are successful.

Good to know that colourism, casteism, sexism, religious discrimination, linguistic racism, skewed quota/reservation systems etc. in the world’s most populous country hasn’t affected some BHPians in anyway as much as being allegedly bumped from a business to economy class seat due to colourism. It is a privilege indeed, and they should absolutely enjoy it where it’s available. Not everyone is as privileged.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by androdev

As I said, some form of racism/prejudice exists everywhere.

+1, I won't be able to add much to the topic, but racism will exist, till white pieces are allowed to make the first move in the game of chess.

Selling "fair and lovely" in open market, giving advertisement in print/digital media for wanting fair person for a job is also a part of racism.

In our company we have different HR departments for US/Canada and for Asians, for me that also shows a subtle racism, but old age prejudices keep dragging along.