[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Maybe create a new thread titled "Why You Emigrated?" and add the poll there as a multiple choice?

Yeah, the poll cannot be edited now to allow multiple choices.

Anyway, for a major decision like emigration, I suspect there will always be a primary driver & then secondary reasons. Multiple choice might ruin the purpose by near-equally distributing votes between options 1/2/3.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Taxi drivers in Paris deserve a prize in nastiness.

Meanest taxi drivers - Paris by a long shot;

Just got back from Paris and I fully concur. First of all, the drivers at Gare Du Nord try to scam you, quoting unrealistic prices without using the meter but then it wasn't my first time in Paris. Then when you are in the taxi, you literally can't ask them anything, they literally pretend they don't understand what you are saying even if you try to speak in French which I can modestly speak or even use google translate.

That said, I found Uber relatively pleasant in Paris, straight forward and the drivers were decent - probably because they are rated by the star system and American tourists won't hesitate to give bad ratings. The drawback is, they can't use bus lanes like the taxis can.

Suffice to say they behave the same as any tourist including white ones. My German and American friends have had nastier experiences

As an Indian tourist in Europe, I generally never felt disadvantaged (relative to other White/Latino/Asian tourists) but it's certainly the case for African tourists or even those from some of our neighbours.

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

there is corruption but it is not in-your-face,

My best friend is Vietnamese (and working in HCMC) and pretty much concur with everything you said except this.

He's told me about pretty bad experiences of corruption in Vietnam in areas where you don't normally expect in India such as during Immigration. Further, airlines like Vietjet are literally running scams for Indian tourists connecting via Vietnam from Australia where they are told their bags are overweight AFTER landing in Vietnam despite them being checked in Australia, so you would be stranded during transit if you don't fork out money.

Also, some tourists are told they made a mistake in the Evisa form (which most of them claim to have filled correctly), most common 'mistake' is the DOB which they decide to read the American way (MM/DD/YYYY) though the form was asked to be filled the normal way (DD/MM/YYYY). Then they are sent to 'travel agents' who claim exorbitant amounts to get an instant visa.

Also, he'd told me to wrap my bag fully if I'm flying into Vietnam, else your bag may come with a broken lock and valuables missing - mainly an issue for flights coming from the West. This was 5-6 years ago though, so not sure if its still an issue.

It should be said that Vietnam is a very expat-friendly country with many Westerners working there. It's becoming sort of the new Thailand with Chinese (in a good way) characteristics. Further, expats (including Indians) get paid better than locals apparently.

[Nav-i-gator]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

My best friend is Vietnamese (and working in HCMC) and pretty much concur with everything you said except this.

He's told me about pretty bad experiences of corruption in Vietnam in areas where you don't normally expect in India such as during Immigration..

True in parts, what I said was from the point of view of an expat living there. Tourists are cheated much more in India than most of the places in the world, even the Indian tourists are not spared. And talking about tourists, Indian tourists don’t really help their cause. Too loud, too demanding and take the mellowed, mild nature of locals for granted. Plus, a lot of unskilled or semi skilled workers keep coming, either duped by agents or just to try out their luck, getting into all sorts of troubles with immigration authorities
Living there means once you have a long term visa, you are not bothered about these things much. What he said about vietjet airlines and extra baggage scam is true, but then they charge a modest money, equivalent of about INR 350 per kg.
Your final assessment is true though. Make Thailand less touristy, less sleazy with better weather and that’s pretty close. My point is - it’s resembles India closely in all good things, and is much better relative to all things bad in India. Two of my team members visited India last year, one Thai national in official tour and one Vietnamese lady on personal, all girl trip. I was advising them on do’s and dont’s and hand to heart, I was worried as hell for their well being and potential bad experiences while in India. And it’s hard to advise without demeaning our own country. I was mighty proud though when they told about their good experiences ( some of them were not good but they didn’t realise it, like random dudes asking them to take photos with them).

Disclaimer: I am not trying to brand Vietnam as good or my own country as bad. I am an Indian and plan no future living in Vietnam. I am there for official assignment temporarily only. I just feel this country is better than western countries for living a good life if saving loads of money is not your only motivation. I am living a much better life here than I was able to do in India, and I have been to many European countries too. They can’t match the standard of living an expat can experience in ASEAN countries

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

Two of my team members visited India last year, one Thai national in official tour and one Vietnamese lady on personal, all girl trip. I was advising them on do’s and dont’s and hand to heart, I was worried as hell for their well being and potential bad experiences while in India. And it’s hard to advise without demeaning our own country. I was mighty proud though when they told about their good experiences ( some of them were not good but they didn’t realise it, like random dudes asking them to take photos with them).

I can relate to this. A number of my European female friends asked for my advice on traveling within India, some are pretty close friends, so I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried though I didn't mince my words while giving honest advice. When I was traveling to Ecuador, my Ecuadorean & other Latino friends did the same, they were extremely honest even if it meant scaring me a little or demeaning for their country/culture. Thankfully, all my friends who visited India had a pretty nice time though it was still strange for them that random people would come up to them asking for selfies (fun fact, my friend who recently relocated to Russia to work faced the same issue, also used to be an issue for Western/Indian/African tourists or expats in China till maybe 10 years ago). Generally speaking, Goa & Kerala are probably the most foreign tourist-friendly.

Also, another Indian friend of one of these travelers advised her to travel on unreserved class for the 'authentic Indian experience'. I straight up strongly advised reserving at least a second A/C - least she falls sick (apart from the obvious safety issues). I mean, would you call traveling with Ryan Air an 'authentic European experience'?

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Some can sense it acutely, some are oblivious towards it. Rest fall somewhere in between. I am someone who could sense it, so it became an issue for me.

From my post in 2022:

The bustling business Fair and Handsome or Fair and Lovely do would love to disagree

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Being born as a boy + not belonging to a lower/condemned caste + having educated/well to do parents + not in rural India is not something that boy earned by merit. He is lucky and privileged.

This forum (with a few exceptions) is this exact demographic. As is human nature, it is difficult for us to recognize our own privilege. Which is why, quite sadly at that, most Indians only realize what racism is when they're at the receiving end as immigrants.

[PZK]

Can we say with confidence that anyone emigrating to India will be given a 'normal' life from day 1? We will not treat them basis their color, race, language, attire, etc. If your anwer is no, then stop expecting this to happen to you when you move to their land.

My answer is no to the above question.

I did not leave India when a corrupt traffic inspector issued a false challan during the march month end, and I'm not leaving USA because of one disgruntled citizen who is having a bad day. Never allow a transactional experience take a strategic decision of your life.

In Charlie's(Munger) words, "the first rule of happy life is low expectations".(In India we have taken this far too seriously though )

[acarun.vel]

I've been keenly following this thread since I moved out of India (to the UK) almost 3 years back. I can relate to a lot of points mentioned which are for/against the subject of emigration. But one thing that I couldn't resist myself from posting is on the context of subtle racism being discarded by a few members, casually.
While moving to first world countries definitely opens up opportunities, increases standard of living and teaches civilities, it does open a pandora box of discrimination, one wouldn't have faced back home (Especially if you are from the Indian subcontinent). God forbid if your melanin levels are high !
Why do I say this ? Because I like to observe people and learn from them on how to communicate, behave and so on. And when you observe people, you know what they are up to. You are greeted & received well at your workplace but not outside of it by the same people. There is bias when you step inside a fancy boutique, a high-end car showroom or places that are generally expensive and brands that are revered by the Westerners. You end up spending money & losing peace of mind.
Such bias drove us (my family) to an extent that despite doing pretty well, We've decided to return back to India post fulfilling a few workplace commitments.
End of the day, I as an adult can dismiss the bias & discrimination for better things I gain from being an expat but cannot ignore my 5 year old undergoing the same without an idea of why it is happening to her. I can write & explain more but that will be debated a lot and I would like to avoid that.
If this hasn't happened to you, Am happy for you and I wish that it shouldn't happen to anyone but please don't discard someone who has experienced it.
And with a lot of anti-immigrant activism happening in UK & Europe, things are only going to get difficult because the common native person cannot distinguish between the one who entered lawfully and pays tax more than the average household income versus the one who overstayed/entered illegally and on benefits.

[Mystic]

Originally Posted by acarun.vel

I've been keenly following this thread since I moved out of India (to the UK) almost 3 years back. I can relate to a lot of points mentioned which are for/against the subject of emigration. But one thing that I couldn't resist myself from posting is on the context of subtle racism being discarded .

With the experience of travelling out of India since 1960s, I can safely say that we have come a long way now that racism even if it is subtle is largely eliminated with rare exceptions. I still remember the apartheid days in South Africa and my Indian passport issued in 1960s had a stamp saying that I am not permitted to enter South Africa as that country was isolated by international community due to apartheid.That is history. Now world is a global village and Indians are everywhere and respected.

I agree with you that racism is still in the minds of people in the older generations and shows up in certain circumstances but it will eventually will be wiped out once the millennials grow older to retirement. Now we have little India in every country. In fact we have people of Indian origin heading countries like UK and USA along with the many CEOs of fortune companies. Our Mumbai is now competing with likes of New York, Tokyo, Hong Kong to become one of the costliest places in terms of real estate on this planet. Now, I don't see a big difference if I am at home facing Pacific Ocean in San Diego or in my home in Visakhapatnam facing Bay of Bengal. Lifestyle in both countries are now comparable.

[BraveArc]

I had posted in this thread not too long ago. Like many have said, direct racism has reduced drastically but that doesn't mean it's gone. I've seen clips on social media but never thought I'd experience it.

Two days back(19 Sep 2024), my wife and I were racially attacked. This happened around 7pm as we were taking the tram back from Sydney CBD to our home about 15 minutes away. Being peak hour, the tram was packed and we were standing. After a stop, some people got off and we were "fortunate" enough to be right where two seats became vacant. She sat first and as I was removing my backpack to sit down, a VERY drunk white man pushed me and sat down there. I immediately said I was about to sit there and he responded in a crude "Well, I'm here now". I just let it go as he was too drunk and I wasn't going to argue with him. My wife told him to make some space as he was sitting too close. He did that and then pretending to be talking on the phone made some crude remarks which we chose to ignore. Then, he directly asked her "How many c***s did you s*** to get a visa?" and I told him to keep his mouth shut and not talk to her like that. He then directed his attention to me saying I should go back to my country, etc. After a few words, he said I was too scared to even look at him and then I just stared at him from that point. His voice reduced and he said somethings which were bordering on super lame that I half wanted to laugh. The tram was reaching the next stop and my wife said let's just leave and as she got up, he was about to say something more when quite a few of the other ladies around got up to tell him to shut up and realising he was outnumbered massively he ran out of the tram. Of the many ladies who stood up, the locals apologised for his antics.
My wife was shaken up by the incident at first and I was just angry but then he was heavily drunk so brushed it off and asked her to not think about it as he probably wouldn't remember it the next day morning and thinking about it is only giving him an importance that he doesn't deserve.

Going into the tram the next day morning was a bit weird but as of today we are totally over it and only laugh about some of the things he said. One thing he told me which was the funniest is "your beard looks like s**t" since it was freshly trimmed and drew compliments from colleagues.

Has this changed our opinions of the country or its people? No. As I had mentioned in my post previously. We plan on going back home when I have built up enough work experience, to get a reasonably good job there.

We know that as brown people, doesn't matter what passport we have, wherever we travel(irrespective of holiday or emigration), the first assumption any local person would have is that we're Indian. And until they interact or see a different passport, their mannerism is only going to be based on a preconceived opinion.

P.S. Please don't respond saying your sorry for our experience as that is once again giving the guy an importance he doesn't deserve.

[Mystic]

Originally Posted by BraveArc

I had posted in this thread not too long ago. Like many have said, direct racism has reduced drastically but that doesn't mean it's gone. I've seen clips on social media but never thought I'd experience it.

It is good that we are discussing this issue so that all are aware of the reality.

I worked in Hobart in Tasmania. My Australian colleagues were very friendly and respect Indians. When I was talking things personal on our long drives ( unbelievable drives to meet my users who sit in the hydro electric dams through picturesque and beautiful land protected by Australian Govt so that we see Kangaroos freely roaming in their natural habitat with out much disturbance. In fact Hobart has a law which bans high rise multi-storeyed buildings beyond a limit ) to work site on company’s vehicles, I get a glimpse of their views. He told me that every Australian has some sort of a connection to someone who has been expelled from England. Even though their forefathers were made to not belong to England, the next generations had built Australia and do not usually carry any sort of racism in their head. I see the same views with my white colleagues in South Africa also. They love India and they love their respective countries.

We see some aberrations always in all countries and does not represent the country. They are usually people who are facing poverty or mental health issues. These kind of people are everywhere. Even in India , we see some incidents with foreign tourists which make us feel shameful but we brush it aside as this is just an aberration which the law will take its course of action. No need to infer too much on such stray incidents.

[m8002?]

If people say that subtle/indirect racism doesnt exist, it can only mean two things:
1. They are oblivious to it and choose to ignore/live with it,
2. They avoid it by restricting to their own small circle of desi friends/shops/etc.
Now, I am not saying it is wrong. Some people are OK with it and others are not.

Someone mentioned different behaviour during work hours and later. I have seen this when I was in NJ ( early 2000s )where Indian colleagues used to have their own parties and the whites their own. The couple of Blacks were ignored by both. There are no cross - invitations. The company CEO/Founder was Indian. So only his parties used to have both.

If you are someone telling it doesn't exist in US, try walking alone into a bikers bar and ordering a drink. I and a friend had walked into one to buy some beer and just bolted out with the stares we got.

Originally Posted by Mystic

Now we have little India in every country.

The very fact that a Little India or Little China exists means there is racism. If you are aware of a Little Germany in NYC, Little England in New Orleans or Little France in LA, please let us know and I will stand corrected.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by m8002?

If people say that subtle/indirect racism doesnt exist…

Subtle/indirect or direct racism exists all over the world – including India. If some countries, it could be isolated incidents, whereas in other places it can be a norm.
In the example mentioned above by fellow member BraveArc, he mentioned how the ‘drunk white man’ was dealt with by the fellow passengers, and they apologized for his antics. In many parts of the world, this is how it is (I am not referring to US as a sample set). Occasional bad elements should not define a society. The same scenario can play out with a ‘drunk black man’ also. In 2019, we were in a tram in San Francisco and a black teen girl showed middle finger to my daughter while getting off the bus. My girl (11 years old then) was quite puzzled, and my response was ‘that kid must have had a bad day’. I would have felt the same way if it was a white kid or an Indian kid.

Originally Posted by m8002?

The very fact that a Little India or Little China exists means there is racism. If you are aware of a Little Germany in NYC, Little England in New Orleans or Little France in LA, please let us know and I will stand corrected.

Not so sure about that. In the country I live there is Little India and China Town – those areas are more like a hotpot of the respective cultures. With my limited travel, I can immediately recollect I have seen Little Italy in Philadelphia, China Town and Little Italy more like adjacent areas in San Francisco.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by m8002?

The very fact that a Little India or Little China exists means there is racism. If you are aware of a Little Germany in NYC, Little England in New Orleans or Little France in LA, please let us know and I will stand corrected.

Little Germany, Manhattan

French Quarter, New Orleans

Little Italy, Manhattan

Irish town, Bronx

And so on…

You can google for other US metro cities for similar “little” towns/suburbs for different countries / segments. Some are massive (eg Irish community in Boston/Massachusetts), some are hardly noticeable but they exist.

Folks from every nation have entered the US as first generation immigrants. If you go back the history over the past few centuries, you’ll see almost every EU nation passing through this cycle.

[charanreddy]

Originally Posted by BraveArc

I had posted in this thread not too long ago. Like many have said, direct racism has reduced drastically but that doesn't mean it's gone. I've seen clips on social media but never thought I'd experience it. .

We relocated to London about 3 months back. In these months, I saw the subtle or not so subtle racism first hand despite us staying in one of the Desi parts of London : Isleworth / Hounslow.

Incident 1: My kid and wife went to a park right opposite our apartment. This is a predominantly Indian community area. A couple of small white kids ( 5 -6 yrs old) started calling an Indian kid about 4 years old ‘Brown’ right to his face. That kid came to my daughter and started calling her Brown as well.

Incident 2: I was looking to buy a car and faced this subtle racism in both BMW and Mercedes car showrooms. Other white folks were attended to slightly more promptly, given test drives more promptly as well. Goes with out saying, I bought the car from the showroom closer to my house which went the extra mile to get my business.

Incident 3 : Multiple times in slightly high end restaurant and not the so high end ones as well ( Nandoes), I see waiters engaging with the white folks in the group and not so much with the Brown ones.


To be fair, except for the Kids incident, I felt the others were not significant in any way. For each of these incidents there are 10X instances where we are treated fairly.