[driven646]

All the players such as Kohli and Rohit keep stating that Test Cricket is the pinnacle, yet don't even bother to play domestic cricket - instead preferring the hype of the IPL.

I only watch Test Cricket and this was the worst performance by our team that I've ever seen in my 45 years. How can Indian batters be so pathetic against spin in India itself?

Virat Kohli averages only 30 in Test cricket over 3 years, has scored only 2 Test Centuries in 5 years,yet continues to be picked - whatever break he gets, he jets off to London to be with his family. Yes, he has a great past record but no one is bigger than the game and the nation.

Rohit is obviously out of form badly, but didn't want to play domestic to find his touch. The great Sachin Tendulkar would always play domestic if the schedule allowed and he was injury free.

The way things are going with T20s and the IPL being the priority for everyone, I feel there's no point in watching Cricket.

[ValarMorghulis]

Originally Posted by driven646

A...
The great Sachin Tendulkar would always play domestic if the schedule allowed and he was injury free...

Interesting tit-bit.
The last time Sachin played a domestic match was in .... 2013 (the year he retired).

The last time Virat played a domestic match was in 2012.
The last time Rohit played a domestic match was in 2015.

[PPS]

Originally Posted by driven646

How can Indian batters be so pathetic against spin in India itself?

To a degree, the pitches have to blamed for this. Look at the kind of pitches that have been dished out in the last 6-7yrs. Even someone like Glen Philips who started off as a wicket-keeper, is a full time fielder is picking up wickets in India! Ish Sodhi didn't even bowl in the 2nd innings of the Mumbai Test. Ajaz Patel doesn't have a single wicket in NZ but is the leading wicket -taker in Wankhede! Then there are some unknown spinners who have done well in India. How many Tests have lasted 5 days in India? With WTC points at stake, BCCI & the management decided to dish out rank turners thus letting even ordinary spinners of the Opposition run through our batting lineup. The confidence of our batsman has been destroyed over the years thanks to these pitches. Even local bowlers in the IPL keep Virat Kohli quiet! That doesn't mean we shouldn't phase out the likes of Rohit & Virat. Even the likes of Tendulkar & Laxman would have struggled on rank-turners. Its time the Board decides to prepare good sporting pitches which last 5 days & not 3 days.

[handsofsteel]

Originally Posted by PPS

To a degree, the pitches have to blamed for this. Look at the kind of pitches that have been dished out in the last 6-7yrs. Even someone like Glen Philips who started off as a wicket-keeper, is a full time fielder is picking up wickets.

The confidence of our batsman has been destroyed over the years thanks to these pitches. Even local bowlers in the IPL keep Virat Kohli quiet! That doesn't mean we shouldn't phase out the likes of Rohit & Virat. Even the likes of Tendulkar & Laxman would have struggled on rank-turners.

The pitches are the same for both batting line ups. Assuming we had the better spinners, how were their batsmen so comfortable?

I think it’s time to look beyond such excuses and call a spade a spade and accept that our batters were simply not good enough. Agreed turners level the playing field between average and good bowlers but that doesn’t explain why they didn’t collapse even once. Comparing vvs and Sachin with this lot (yes vk included) is unfair on the greats. They faced Warne and Murali at their peak. They had their issues too against an odd bowler/type of bowler but worked in domestic cricket/practice to overcome these. The rot set in when you started having different rules for different people (people joining/leaving in between a series, some penalised, some excused domestic circuit etc etc).

Does anyone think that the same XV could have been announced after the white wash? Ergo, announce the team on day 2 of the test match. Such a collective failure at home is unprecedented and that itself speaks volumes of the rot in the system.

[Shumi_21]

Originally Posted by Shumi_21

Will Young has done even better. His role has been very similar to what Pujara did in BGT 2018. Didn't score a ton of runs, but wore the opposition bowlers down for other batters to cash in

And like Pujara, Young is also declared player of the tournament. It's insane to think Young wouldn't have even played if Kane Williamson was fit.

NZ maybe the nice guys of cricket, but their victory in Mumbai after benching Santner, yet spinning India out in a chase of 147 with Ajaz Patel & part timer Glen Philips, is as big of a middle finger as there could be. Our batting on slow, turning pitches was shambolic for years, and it took just one series where Ash & Jaddu didn't carry the batting.

We lost the 23 World Cup final because our top order couldn't bat on a slow pitch. The 24 T20 WC final pitch was also on the slower side, & our batters almost shat the bed there too. We got cleaned in Sri Lanka ODI series too, on slow, turning pitches. And now we've been whitewashed at home for the first time in 24 years.

Why did our batters start losing their skill against spin? I can offer two reasons:

1. More focus on playing pace. To win overseas, our batters have rightly improved their game against pace, maybe at the cost of skill against spin. Let's take Shreyas Iyer for example, by far the best player of spin for India until very recently. He had to made technical changes to his batting to avoid getting bounced out, but in the process lost his spin destroying prowess.

2. Ranji being expanded to 32 teams in the Elite group & 6 additional in the Plate diluted it's quality at least in the short term. Add to it the tendency of the weaker teams of making flat pitches at home to avoid defeat and get some points through a draw, we have batters with inflated averages all over. "Domestic Bradman" Sarfaraz is a great example. I think even Tilak Varma captaining Hyderabad averaged in excess of 100 with a strike rate close to a 100 last year in the second rung "Plate" Ranji group. A couple of his teammates Rahul Singh & Tanmay Agarwal had similar stats too.

We don't play tests for a year after the Australia tour, it's enough time for the Indian team management to take remedial actions. And we have the right batting coach to do this as well in Abhishek Nayar. He had rejuvenated the careers of Rohit Sharma the opener and Dinesh Karthik the finisher. He's also done well with a younger Shubman Gill and more recently Angkrish Raghuvanshi. But Nayar sure has his work cut out.

[NomadSK]

Howsoever we may dissect the situation and do the postmortem, eventually it will all boil down to reading the situation, lack of intent, poor decision making, minimal game awareness and abysmal shot selections. Spin pitches are also a part of cricket, on similar lines to bouncy grassy pitches, its the duty of batsmen to negotiate such harsh events to their advantage and dig in for hours to survive till bowlers give up. And both teams get the same pitch to bat on. Agreed weather wise the 1st day of the 1st test match was kind of hard to bat on, but there can't be any excuses after that.

No cricketer would play such sort of cricket in Test unless he is being instructed and given free hand from the captain/coach or he doesn't care about test cricket at all. Specially playing a reverse shot at the fag end of the day and getting out was a cardinal sin and that too when you are already set-in. Although Pant scored runs, but those were filled with too many chances/risks and that's not test cricket by any standard. By the way there were no demons in the Wankhede pitch, the more they analyze the more they complicate a simple game.

In test matches either a water tight technique or a solid intent can give results in your favor and both were missing, thanks to influx of T-20. Else you are exposed in one series. Raina, Iyer, Yuvi, Kaif to name a few got extinct pretty soon from test cricket, because everyone is trying to find your weakness and exploit it to their advantage.

Long time back, I remember there was WI player when they were touring India he was named as "Padams" by the time series got over, only cuz whole series he showed the intent to play spin with pads, did we used/played pads and tried to took out LBW from the equation.

Bazball type of cricket looks interesting & flashy till winning, but the moment you start to lose, you look like fools on and off the ground.

[harry10]

Shameless bcci is back to what matters most to them. Nothing will change.
By the way these dates collide with Perth test as well. Players will surely be distracted to know how much more money they will get.

[PPS]

Great to hear KL Rahul & Jurel are leaving early for the Australian tour & would be part of the 'A' teams 2nd game. A few others like Harshit Rana should already have been there, not sure why he was kept here as a net bowler!

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/a...a-game-1458317

Originally Posted by handsofsteel

The pitches are the same for both batting line ups. Assuming we had the better spinners, how were their batsmen so comfortable?Agreed turners level the playing field between average and good bowlers but that doesn’t explain why they didn’t collapse even once.

Clearly both Ashwin & Jadeja didn't have a good series with the ball! Santner outbowled both of them. Also, some credit should be given to the NZ batters. They were able to counter the spin threat here. These very same batters lost to SL a few weeks earlier. Our batsman were overconfident & complacent and assumed NZ will just roll over like Bangladesh.

I think it’s time to look beyond such excuses and call a spade a spade and accept that our batters were simply not good enough.

Not for a moment justifying our poor batting. Its a known secret that Virat & Rohit are below average. The likes of Ashwin & Jadeja who would rescue us didn't fire with the bat. Axar with his useful contributions with the bat wasn't picked. Jurel did well against England but he wasn't even considered for a spot in the XI.

Comparing vvs and Sachin with this lot (yes vk included) is unfair on the greats. They faced Warne and Murali at their peak.

Agree. Tendulkar's batsmanship was at another level. They did face Warne & Murali at their peak but Tests weren't really getting over in 3-4 days back then. Infact pitches were much flatter.

Originally Posted by Shumi_21

after benching Santner, yet spinning India out

Santner had a side strain. He wasn't benched.

Let's take Shreyas Iyer for example, by far the best player of spin for India until very recently. He had to made technical changes to his batting to avoid getting bounced out, but in the process lost his spin destroying prowess.

Iyer played a good knock in the 4th innings in Bangladesh sometime back on a turning pitch. The way our batsman batted this series Iyer will now start looking like a great player of spin suddenly!

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Although Pant scored runs, but those were filled with too many chances/risks and that's not test cricket by any standard.

Has Pant ever batted with circumspect? I don't think anybody expects him to bat normally. His job is to disrupt the bowler. You can afford to have 1 such batsman in your team. It can become a problem when everyone tries to play Pant sort of innings. Jaiswal had no need to play that reverse sweep as its premeditation. His success at Test arena has come by playing normally.

[Oxy]

Adding to this mother of all embarrassments is the fact that NZ won the Mumbai test without Santner and Southee. Plus, Williamson and Boult didn't play the entire series. So we kind of got our behinds handed over to us by a NZ second string team.

[maximus_fiat]

Indian teams performance in the longer version has been really concerning. They lost the ODI series to Sri Lanka and now a white wash against NZ in test. Our players dont have the mentality to stay on the pitch and accumulate runs. Its probably the after effects of too much T20. Youngsters are more interested to get selected in T20 side (either national or IPL side). This is the quick path to stardom and money.

Virat and Rohith are past their prime. There is no excuse for these players to skip domestic tournaments. We definitely need to look beyond them. I wish our board was as strong as Australia where no one is treated above the game.

It was really dreadful to see the likes of Sarfaraz, Gill, Jaiswal getting out without really applying themselves. Pant was the only outlier in the team.

PCB really took some bold steps in moving out their star players and they did made the difference.

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by Oxy

Adding to this mother of all embarrassments is the fact that NZ won the Mumbai test without Santner and Southee. Plus, Williamson and Boult didn't play the entire series. So we kind of got our behinds handed over to us by a NZ second string team.

Players who are too big in brand, takes out the flexibility in team selection. Imagine if Southee was the captain even after Srilanka debacle. He would have to be picked for all test matches, robbing one fast bowler or spinner spot. Southee letting go of captaincy is the difference between New Zealand against Srilanka and India. It allowed them to pick him for green top at Bangalore and rest/drop him in Mumbai. I have the same opinion about Williamson too. If he was in the team, New Zealand would not be able to do this.

We won BGT in Australia last time because Virat and Rohit were not there. If they are both playing, we will get whitewashed this time. You can not win against Australia playing two batsmen short. The ideal team is one without Rohit and Kohli with Bumrah as captain and Pant as vice-captain. If BCCI wants to manage Bumrah's workload, let them do that in white ball cricket. He needs to play all tests other than dead rubbers.

[PreludeSH]

Can we forget Ajaz Patel 10 wicket haul previously? Even in that innings it was Mayank Agarwal who scored 50% of our runs.

[sgmuser]

It was a sad day in the Indian cricket history for me. It simply exposed our true nature where a mentally strong team with fundamentals sorted out, professionals can beat the back of the so called top test team India black and blue. This is the need of the hour for a team like India who always prepare pitches which helps their cause, bulldoze schedules via ICC to their comfort and reach the top of the table then loose miserably to a better team, always. If a country the size of NZ can bring champions and match winners at will then what India has shown is the corruption at every juncture and in the sports too that is deep rooted.

There is no point in talking about the failures of Virat, Rohit etc. The reason for this and few other losses (in the FINALS especially) is because, the team lacks mental strength and the management and system needs a complete overhaul. NZ, I will rate them even ahead of Aussies when it comes to the mindset, tough character and fielding. Their skills are greatly complemented by their hard work and not natural like many kids in Indian teams who lack discipline, hard work and mental ability. Skill minus mental attitude is what Indian team is made of. I will put only three players in Indian cricket of having the right mental strength when it comes to adverse situations: Dravid, Dhoni and Pujara to some extent. I know this clearly shows my frustration, but the defeat in a home series and that too 3-0 for a country with 1.4 billion? What to say then?!

Do not just blame Gambir, this is a collective failure of players and not the coaches or management etc. When it comes to a game, what the player does on that day on that pitch is what matters regardless of what he has in the dug out. Gambir is not a great coach or he is yet to prove that. One IPL cup is not the proof for a Test series coach. Rohit should have been more of a calm player and try to stay there rather than doing what he knows best, hit everything (which works 1 out of 10 times) out of the park. Kohli - what is going on his mind, no one knows. I would have preferred Kohli to be the captain for the test team to feed on his ego. He has slightly better records when it comes to success ratio in Tests. Rohit is good at one day and T20, especially for his batting exploits. Rohit's tactic is not something that suits the Tests where your character is Tested(!).

[Joeboy]

We have the bad habit of placing our cricket team on a pedestal when they are winning and grind them to dust when they lose. We have to accept that winning and losing is part of the game and just move on rather than doing a postmortem on the losses. We just have to hope that players will learn from their mistakes and do well in Australia.

[harry10]

The problem is when a player starts thinking he is bigger than the game. There is a reason I have always rated Sachin over above any other batsman. He never stopped improving. He developed the upper cut in SA to negate the short pitch bowling which he then taught Sehwag. He was the first to use the Paddle sweep to negate Muralidharans brilliant off spin.

When Shane Warne was at his peak he played a domestic game for Mumbai to see what Warne is doing and then absolutely demolished him in the test series. Before that no one dared to come down the wicket to Warne but he showed others how by using your feet you can even tackle the amazing leg spin of Warne. Lara did the same. They both were pinnacle of batsmanship because they tried to evolve with the game.

Here, these guys are treating playing for India as a hobby. Whenever they want they come. No match practice. No strategy. No motivation. Just get in the team because there is no accountability. Even Pak dropped Babar and reaped results.

Bcci sending KL and Jurel for A game is useless. Are they confirmed starters in the 11 for 1st test? Why the 1st starters like Kohli, Rohit, Gill, Jaiswal are not playing that game? If they are busy to go then bench them and play the guys who are playing A game in the 1st test. I don't agree with a lot of things by Sunny Gavaskar but he has been always vocal about playing tour games in SENA. BCCI even cancelled the sole tour match with India A because they were afraid what if these paper champs lose to the India A team.

Also, Gambhir has turned into a big hypocrite. Kept on saying I don't believe in star culture and people should play on merit and all the team selections since his appointment are on the basis of Star culture. Otherwise no way a proven match winner like Axar or Kuldeep will sit on the bench and a useless bowler like Siraj will play. Less to say about Rohit and Kohli selection the better.

By the way Aussies were playing Shield games to prepare for BGT. They don't even think for a second to skip IPL and a fat pay cheque if it's coming in their way of performing in international matches. Here, players are injured but magically healed once IPL starts.