[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by GTO

- If concerned about safety, you could drive at a slower speed, brush your skills up (like SS-Traveller's courses)...

Originally Posted by Tgo

Shared SS-Traveller's thread with him.

It makes me so happy to find mention from you folks on this thread. I am honoured.

Originally Posted by carnutfrombanga

The latest incident which made me rethink driving in India was a dog jumping out of the highway onto the middle of the road and my car running into it.
...
I know that running into an animal on the highway is quite common but makes me realize that it's only a matter of time before I get into a more serious accident involving a vehicle or person considering the number of close shaves.

I have driven another 1700 km on the highway since then but have become cautious, have kept my speeds low and keep expecting a worst case scenario, I am thinking of quitting driving...
...
PS: it's been a cathartic experience just writing this post

I know what you are talking about. Those close shaves, escaping by the skin of your teeth, or even crashing into an animal, or God forbid, another human being...It all leaves one with a terrible taste in the mouth for years. And if a dear one in the car is injured or dies, getting back behind the wheel confidently again is almost impossible.

Originally Posted by SmartCat

As number of vehicles on the road go up, this (seeing more accidents) is a statistical certainty. But the overall probability of you being involved in such an incident now (when compared to 5 years ago) remains more or less the same or goes up slightly. That's because majority of these incidents happen because of driving style (not by chance)

On a 8 hour trip, roughly 2 to 3 close shaves are par for the course. Cruising at 80 to 100 kmph eliminates most of the risk. Modern cars take around 2.5 seconds to stop dead in tracks from 80 kmph.

I used to think along similar lines before, but that is simply not the truth. In a 24-hour drive, I can assure zero close shaves - for the sake of my family, myself as also my car. At 60 kmph one may be at risk of death on one type of road, while elsewhere at 150 kmph there is no such risk. And the "time taken to stop" equation is far less worrisome than the "distance taken to stop".

Originally Posted by carnutfrombanga

I will sign up for Traveller-SS's course if there is one online.

Unfortunately I don't have an online course. My firm belief is that certain skills, like surgery, mountaineering or driving / riding, cannot be learnt online, and someone needs to actually talk the person through the steps as s/he performs it. However, there are many places on this forum where I did describe strategies of low-risk driving, and you are welcome to look those up, but I don't know if that would be of any help.

Originally Posted by carnutfrombanga

A bus driving at speed on the wrong side in a blind curve on the lane closest to the median, will attach a video of this incident.
http://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=UWLuAdym5LI

Something similar is described in the beginning of this thread (Evidence-Based Driving for Safety: A Primer). Watch the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESswd72c4cc

What I perceived before I opted to receive training, versus what I was supposed to notice while driving afterwards (and nowadays do, as a matter of habit)... but read all that on the Evidence-Based Driving thread, and see if that convinces you not to quit driving.

[Manan9876]

Originally Posted by carnutfrombanga

How do other bhp-ians cope?

I think you are feeling the after affects of a traumatic experience and its ok to let it out.

What and how I recovered was taking back control.

Starting with video games I recalled traumatic events and in such managed to avoid it.

Then came back to my car and using the confidence of the above managed to get over certain 'blocks'.

Given my culture, I imaged myself as the captain of a ship back on duty, in reality I might be driving one of the bottom bin cars but in my mind it is a connection to this modern world, of conveyance, relative safety as to two wheelers and public transport. Something needed by my family and too delicate to be shared to a stranger.

A duty bought by my coming of age, and a vow sworn on the day of being licensed.

Given statistics it is probable that there might be more incidents, but as the sun shines so must my ship sail, it was not made to rest in the dock.

[bhansali_hardik]

There are n number of reasons why you should not even consider quitting. But be a little more vigilant and have a more fool proof approach to driving. You have to be defensive mostly, mostly because in Bangalore on any road where there is no physical divider between lanes you get pushed to edge of you lane where you just get stuck! In these situations we need be a little offensive to demand our right of way in our lane!

The roads are crazy and there are n number of things going on at every moment when you drive, choose your battles carefully!

This happened neat my home just when I was out with my brothers toddler in the back seat (I was extra careful and super slow) yet this happened! If it was some other day, maybe maybe the kid wouldn't have been this fortunate! Or maybe I would have crossed this part of the road way before he popped up! So, the permutation and combinations are endless, that makes it a part of the driving experience here!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr6hnsKGR_k

You will be extra vigilant and stressed out for a few months here on. Every time you drive, but then you will get your stride back!

PS : LTD!

[antz.bin]

To my fellow Team-BHPians, How many near-miss incidents are par for the course for every 1000km of highway driving?

When I used to travel all over India on my motorcycle, even 1 incident/1000km was unacceptable for me. I was aiming for 1/5000km. It MUST be that way on the bike.

The way to do it is to assume that everyone else on the road is trying to kill you and then ride accordingly.
If you hit something, or get hit, regardless of circumstance, it is always your fault, because its your skin and bones on the line.
If someone runs in your path, you should have seen him/her coming. Keep an eye on both sides of the dual carriageway.
If you skid due to gravel in a corner, you should have kept a safety margin from your side.
If you get rear-ended on a traffic light, you should have been watching your mirrors with the bike in gear, ready to take evasive action, if you were at the back of the line.
If someone jumps a red light and T-bones you, you should have been expecting such characters when crossing the signal.

It's easier to assume such a reality on a motorcycle when you are the smallest vehicle on the road. A car gives me a sense of safety that has brought down my guard substantially. Now near miss incidents are happening once every 400-500km. I don't think that is a good thing and I need to make sure that I get it to the older levels.

I feel the above approach is the only way to survive on the Indian Highways. And that approach has helped me stay safe for 1lac+ km on 2 wheels.

Do you guys think this is enough? Too little? Or too much?

Is it replicable in a car? I haven't been able to yet. I don't know if it is practical, but I strive to improve that aspect of my driving.

[theMAG]

Originally Posted by carnutfrombanga

I have driven about 115,000 km in 5 years, just letting other members know that I am no stranger to Indian road conditions and would like to believe that I follow most rules & best practices for highway driving, most of the time.
..

While the decision to drive or to quit is entirely yours, I will say that driving is a need-to-have ability under all times, unless you and your family happen to live in a setting where all of your regular destinations and times of commute are unchanged and served by an effective public transport system - during both normal and extraordinary situations.

[anshuman1117]

Originally Posted by carnutfrombanga

A bus driving at speed on the wrong side in a blind curve on the lane closest to the median, will attach a video of this incident.
https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=UWLuAdym5LI
Apologies for the swearing, I don't know how to edit the sound out.

Oh man, this video of yours brought back memories of an almost fatal near miss that I had when I had recently acquired my license and was a little too enthusiastic about driving on highways.

Year was 2019 (haha too recent I know) and I had just gotten my license in 2018 and was back from college during vacations. I was really happy and I was driving with my father on the passenger seat. It was a straight road albeit a single carriageway.

There was a tractor that I wanted to overtake and a school bus was coming towards us on the other lane. Now, I had learnt driving on a well maintained Ford Fiesta Classic 1.6, that I was driving that day. A very powerful car for a newbie. And of course, I was feeling a little too confident and thought that having a powerful vehicle, I'll just downshift, rev it hard and overtake quickly. The tractor must be doing around 30 or 40 kmph.

Now, the point to note here is that the tractor had a trolley full of bricks and I think it was too overloaded to brake in time to allow me to pass. I did not take this into account. Also, I totally misjudged the bus's speed. It was accelerating after a stop a little before. As I pulled up parallel to the tractor to overtake, instead of slowing when the gap closed, I accelerated further before braking. Another misjudgement. The bus then came very close. Thankfully I was honking and flashing lights, and the bus driver was sane enough to apply full brakes. Both of us braked hard and stopped right in time to avoid a full frontal collision. I thought I was gonna die that day.

It was shook to the core. I immediately gave up driving that moment. Gave the keys to my father and both of us waited around 15-20 mins before starting for home again. It had a profound effect on me and completely changed my outlook towards driving and road safety, vehicle safety in general. I had nightmares of that incident for a few days. Did not drive for like a month. Thoughts of me killing my family like this haunted me for days.

Thankfully, my father, being a police officer did not discourage me from driving again. He requested his driver, an experienced Head Constable who had even driven vehicles in VIP security convoys and who had a VIP Security driving training (Knew defensive driving techniques like J-Turns) to guide & train me. I cannot thank him enough. For it is only because of him that I now feel somewhat competent about driving on highways again.

Since then, not only have I regained my confidence, but also driven my family to my father's new place of posting. Here are some of tips that he gave me and what I have learned till now. Ofcourse, I am still young, so I have a lot to learn. Giving some points that I was taught and found helpful. It may be of use to you or anyone else -

0. I avoid night driving completely. Also, in dawn or dusk, it's always better to have the headlights switched on even when sunlight seems adequate. Especially in vehicles without DRLs.

1. To drive safely, lose the "sense of urgency" (or as he said it, "hadbadi" in hindi) on roads. Some symptoms of "sense of urgency" - tailgating others, following slower moving trucks and trying to overtake them anyhow, trying to quickly close in any gaps, trying to quickly cross any road or violate right-of-way rules, getting impatient when waiting behind trucks on single carriageway, trying to squeeze in gaps anyhow etc.

2. Always estimate the speed that the road may allow. Never cross it. Some rules of thumb when calculating speeds -

a. Expressways - 100. When the stretch seems empty/straight and the speedlimit allows - 120.

b. Dual Carraigeway Highways - 80. When the stretch seems empty/straight and the speedlimit allows - 100.

c. Single Carraigeway Highways - 60-80. When the stretch seems empty/straight and the speedlimit allows - 100.

d. In any residential area/small towns/ busy sections on highways - 40-50. Also when I see some children nearby, I always honk, flash lights and slow down. Helps in alerting everyone around the children.

3. In a single carriageway, only overtake when you are absolutely sure. DO NOT attempt any manoeuvre if you have even an iota of doubt. Ofcourse, never tailgate the vehicle that has to be overtaken. Also, honk and flash liberally while making a move. It helps in alerting the traffic and anyone trying to join the road.

3. No overtaking on turns, ascents. I personally think that our highways are very unpredictable and any vehicle can come on the wrong side at any time. So I take it slow on turns and any climbs. Also, unless absolutely sure, I never make an overtake on the ghats.

4. On a 4 lane highway, always stick to the lane on the other side of the turn. So, if you are at a right turn, stick to the left lane. If turning left, stick to the right one.

5. At any kind of intersection or gap-in-medians on highways always make your intent clear. If you plan on not stopping/yielding, honk and flash liberally and slow down. Keep your foot on the brake ready. If you do wish to yield to any traffic or pedestrian, slow down and do not honk until you get close.

6. Whenever some young person tries to cross, generally, they will tend to dash forwards to save themselves. Old people tend to dash backwards. Can be helpful when trying to make an emergency last-minute manoeuvre.

7. Cattle generally dashes forwards. So when trying to cross them, cross from behind to avoid slowing down. Slow down if crossing them from front.

8. Also, I have learnt, even when I may have a right-of-way, I always yield to a speeding truck or bus.

9. Also, I never block, cut in front of, or brake check any overloaded/heavy vehicle (tractor, truck, bus, rural taxis).

10. Whenever there is a cluster of trucks, buses formed on the highway, I never get in between them if they are overtaking each other or just occupying space due to a ghat section. Many of them are underpowered and may just never be able to climb a slope if somehow they have to stop. I just follow them at a safe distance and overtake when they are back in a lane.

11. Whenever there comes a bad patch of road, especially in a 4 lane highway, the trucks may start swerving at the last moment due to a pot hole. I then reduce my speed, follow it if it is moving fast, or wait and honk liberally before overtaking it.

12. I never travel parallel to a truck/bus/tractor. Just feels unsafe. Also, I never stay in a large vehicle's blind spot for long. If I have to, I honk and flash to let them know.

13. Ofcourse, I follow all the safe driving practices, rules, laws, speed limits and keep checking ORVMs and IRVMs regularly so that I am aware of the traffic at all times.

14. Lastly, keeping all the ego aside helps. No point in racing others, seeking vengeance, raging. Does not really matter after all.

The biggest thing for me has been losing that sense of urgency and in general having a defensive driving attitude. One can always drive enthusiastically on roads that allow, not everywhere all the time. Otherwise, the drives just get too stressful for me, especially on single carriageway highways.

Hope these points and my experience prove helpful to you and others. I hope you get back to driving as soon as you can

[landcruiser123]

For someone who has averaged over 20,000 km a year, it is strange to say you want to give up driving. I'm not sure what other stresses you have in life, but please do take a break (from long trips) if your body & mind demands it. If needed, try seeking a retreat or spiritual guidance if you're a believer.

Also check this out: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...tml#post840235 ("The Law of the Garbage Truck")

Regarding a few things that can enhance your driving experience:
1. Practice defensive driving - many threads on TBHP for that
2. A better car with an AT if required and your budget allows for it
3. Mods in the existing car - ICE, suspension, insulation, seat cushioning (if you don't have side airbags)
4. Start early - 5:00 AM if possible; Also don't drive beyond 8-9PM in the night
5. Cruise, rather than driving with lead foot - okay to maintain 70kmph on a busy section of the highway rather than varying your speed between 80-120 kmph. You won't believe how much driving with a lead foot tires you out
6. Get a dashcam
7. Use a beater car in the city or avoid driving in the city (especially interior parts) - these parts have the worst congestion and lack parking. Take an Uber or other public transit
8. Try not listening to accident stories - many incidents happen due to people stupidity. Example:

I know someone who T-boned a Tata Ace on Bangalore - Mysore highway. Turns out: He was accelerating (at over 90kmph) on a part of the highway which had a gap in the median and the driver of the Tata Ace used the same gap to cross the highway

There is certain independence which you'll miss by not driving (I missed it for 2 years in graduate school). Also, you'll need to depend on (unreliable) services for your basic needs.

[drivf]

Hey. I am in the same boat as you are. I met with 2 accidents in the last 6 months. I was rear- ended both the times while I was stationary at a red signal- once a n ecosport driven by a senior citizen and the second time by a huge BMC garbage truck( driver was stoned completely) . The first incident didn’t bother me much but the second one has had an impact. Please note, the second time I was in the back seat(had hired a driver 2 days ago) and literally got thrown of it due to the impact. Now I travel by cab mostly at the mercy of the cabdriver( my car is celebrating its third week at the garage&#128526. Many a time they(cabbies) try stunts and sudden braking which makes me look behind to see if anyone is coming to rear end again. It has become a reflex - but what you’ve to realise is: it sucks when someone else makes a mistake and you pay for it- not in cash/ credit but in form of lost mental well- being !! Unless you’re an exceptionally bad driver- it’s highly unlikely someone else could ferry you better than yourself. Stopping driving is not a solution, believe me! I’m ready to start driving once I get my car back cuz I love it and I’m sure you do too. Relax, listen to some good music and hit that pedal!! Let the mile- crunching continue.

[nik0502]

Hi Carnutfrombanga,

I am sailing in the same boat. I have been thinking about giving up driving for a long time now however when I travel in rentals (which I used to more than my own car before Covid) the drivers just don’t give me confidence that I can completely rely on them. Similar to the incident you mentioned I ran into a cow 10 years back and unlike you I wasn’t fortunate enough since I was riding a bike. I lost my voice in that accident since my vocal cords got paralysed. And for last couple of years I don’t feel comfortable driving. I have developed this phobia. Every time I am driving on a flyover I feel I would lose control and the car will fell down from the bridge. I don’t know why. I never had an accident since I have shifted to four wheeler but this phobia and all the people ready to pick up a fight over something as simple as you not letting them cut you in in a toll lane makes me think maybe be it’s just not worth it. I don’t enjoy driving anymore. Anyone else on the forum who feels the same way or it’s just me ?

[COMMUTER]

It's about priorities. We need to prioritise our safety first, followed by other road users', rest can take the backseat. I have been unable to avoid squelching at times but that's a part of the orDEAL. I always keep slow speed as my best safety solution. It helps in avoiding cattle too.
I have added a few horns and lights to improve visibility under the glare of oncoming beams and be heard over the din. Animals usually respond better to them. I have been mercifully spared of big issues till date. Thank God!

Something's are inevitable. Once, a dog slept under my warm engine in a few minutes I had parked by a busy roadside!

If keeping a driver is not viable, using a taxi too will never be viable.

[Dr.Vikas]

The safest place in a Car is the Driver's seat..


At least for any BHPian, this could be true..

[GTO]

Originally Posted by carnutfrombanga

I forgot to mention an important point, I absolutely love driving on empty-ish roads, I use any excuse to jump in my car and head off into an obscure route to explore more of my country.

One more suggestion = please head out early morning. IMHO, Indian roads are the best between 0500 - 0900 hours. That's when driving pleasure is 100%. Once the public wakes up, it all rolls downhill, ending up in mayhem.

[camitesh]

Originally Posted by carnutfrombanga

I have driven another 1700 km on the highway since then but have become cautious, have kept my speeds low and keep expecting a worst case scenario, I am thinking of quitting driving but I won't be able to for at least the next 6 months.

PS: it's been a cathartic experience just writing this post

I can sort of relate to your experience as exactly two years back I was sitting in a police station all alone and had made up my mind to stop riding after a big old red box of metal that we call Maharashtra ST bus rammed me hard while I was at a traffic signal and dragged me with it as it had lost its brakes.

I walked out virtually scratch free but shaken and I just realised how vulnerable we riders are especially on two wheels. At that time, I had ridden close to 1lakh kms all over India in last decade and had my fair share of close calls and few minor accidents but nothing shook my confidence like this. I didn't touch my bike again for a week or so, contemplated my life choices as I had been recently married back then, spoke to friends and family after the incident and eventually decided to not give up on biking altogether, maybe just ease down a little on long trips.

Yes I feel much safe and cocooned when I'm touring cross country in my car and still think at times to just continue driving to explore our beautiful country rather than riding as I feel it's marginally more safer. But riding bikes is something I can never give up as some of my best memories are on two wheels. I'm still riding the same bike that was rear ended by the ST bus and don't regret my decision one bit. Just did a solo 2,500 kms ride last weekend to Rann of Kutch and that was by far the best thing that happened to me in 2020. See last pic for reference

You have driven long enough on our roads so I'm sure you have gathered the essential skills on defensive driving in India. So give it some time buddy and don't let go off the steering wheels till then. Continue driving to nice winding roads, cruise leasurely on a empty highway with windows down or tuning into your favourite songs. I'm sure with time you will overcome this dilemma and be glad that you didn't give up driving.

[Sebring]

I have been using Bangalore-Mysuru stretch quite frequently, but the never ending road-works and incomplete/hazardous stretches have put paid to many lives. On last two trips I have seen two deaths, both were on Enfield Bullet. First instance was this lovely young couple, and I think he misjudged the steep turn - taking it in full speed, both skidded on the tarmac at speeds over 100KMPH. Her dismembered body was all over the road. Pretty gruesome. The boy survived with injuries, but was inconsolable, holding her head in his arms. Instance two; I don't cross 80KMPH, come what may. But, an impatient rider in a bid to overtake me at over 100KMPH hit a lorry - head on (Which made a sudden U turn on the highway, without indication). This incident made me return back to home base without completing my ride. I was shuddering at the sight, and feeling really sad typing this now.

Originally Posted by antz.bin

To my fellow Team-BHPians, How many near-miss incidents are par for the course for every 1000km of highway driving?

[drrajasaravanan]

Hi,
I would urge fellow members to stay on course for the topic in discussion where many members have made valid and informative points. I don't feel its appropriate to detail your close calls and near misses or events witnessed as part of this topic. Mods, apologies if I am wrong.