[moralfibre]

Knowing BMW India:

The last known global good news for BMW Global must have been a decade ago when they topped global sales charts to come across as a leader in the premium car segment Link (BMW leads the pack in Global Premium Car Sales!). Thereafter it has been a downward slide for the manufacturer, both globally and in India. Mercedes has been giving them a bloody nose in India and globallyM-o-M, Q-o-Q and Y-o-Y.

Walk into any BMW India dealership and wipe out 10-20% of sticker price and walk out. That's the normal course of discounts for non-moving cars. Obviously Technology, capabilities and overall premiumness has no longer been BMW's forte as Mercedes has blown the customer base away with a wide array of offerings with their appeal to the youth and execs alike.

BMW's USP stayed in their driving experience but there's very few who want to open up their purse as sales charts would make you believe.

The worst is about to come as the market responds to BMW's blunder of oversized grills that resemble nothing but a pair of buck's teeth.




BMW Motorrad:

BMW India sells their motorcycle offerings through a different brand and dealership experience christened BMW Motorrad. While their offerings are decent their disastrous pricing on their bread and butter models like the 310R and 310GS helped KTM India set sales charts on fire. Terrible understanding of the market, segment and product packaging led them to a disastrous innings and the 310 twins took fancy with a little few who wanted to be associated with a premium European manufacturer. Just like their cousin cars, these were later moved out of the inventory with solid discounts. Electrical issues with batteries discharging and alternator blowouts were common.

The newer offerings have been realistically priced after the customers made BMW Motorrad put money where their mouth is. Regrettably, early adopters had a TATA or Mahindra V1 experience and were nothing but test dummies that picked BMW India's offering at eye watering prices and yet suffered miserable treatment with reliability and sales experiences. Case in point this experience from my country cousin - BMW Experience by Deelip Menezes (The Bavaria Motors BMW Experience - Rs 15000 ransom to sell a motorcycle)


BMW India's Pune dealer:

BMW India's Pune dealer is Bavaria motors referenced in the link above. As it is usually, they run an array of car and motorcycle dealerships and off late had to sell of their Ducati dealership to another business house due to sustainability and financial issues. Post move, most Ducati customers have heaved a sign of relief as Mr. Bakre who has taken over 3S experience under his brand of Legacy motors for the Italian manufacturer have only had great things to say about them. As post COVID issues continue to choke auto dealerships, the dealer's BMW side of the house is experiencing turbulences too.

Without casting any doubts, I won't be surprised if this business gets sold to a cash rich buyer over the next 10-12 months either.

[moralfibre]

The BMW Reliability Question:

The BMW R1200GS is BMW's flagship offering in the adventure segment. Boasting of pioneering tech and a segment first, the bike is loaded to the gills with technology that would awe a biker. True to its DNA the GS can pretty much run around the country with utmost ease without any fatigue to the rider. It is probably the best "tech experience" I've had in my motorcycling career.

However, there is a problem here. You could ride the bike 2000km away but still be vulnerable. The early examples of the GS' have had terrible safety issues. The first one is very well documented on the forum:

Link (BMW R1200GS - Stanchion separation issue. UPDATE: Recall announced.)

The early lot of air cooled GS' were considered to be utterly reliable and bulletproof. There are documented proofs of them closing 6 figure odometers with simple routine services. The later lot of water cooled aka the LC or the Wet heads have been marred with reliability issues.

The stanchion assembly not withstanding, owners of the liquid cooled variants have three things to worry about:

1) Loose wheel spokes
2) Drive shaft premature failure
3) Electronics: Primarily suspension collapse.

Now let's go through each of these to understand what a close to 3 million rupee motorcycle can do to you:

1. Loose spokes:



BMW more or less spearheaded the effort to provide tubeless rims on their bikes. To facilitate the spoke fitment such that there are no leak points in the tyre mount area, BMW ended up fitting cross spoked wheels on all of their bikes that opt for wired wheels. There was however a serious flaw in the way they went about with this:

a) Most early adopters got bikes that had loose spokes right from the factory.
b) If you had more than 3-4 loose spokes, you ran the chance of the wheel hub separating from the entire assembly potentially killing you if you were unlucky.

For example: A 473 mile run brand new motorcycle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD4am9PHY70

As it is in a developed country like the United States, BMW issued an official recall and submitted it to NHTSA with a detailed procedure of how to identify and rectify this issue for good. Link

See attached PDF with details.

But, since we are in India without any lemon laws or governing bodies determining issues passed down by manufacturers to customers, there was no recall issued or notified to customers.

Lastly, it is beyond the competence of local dealers to actually fix spokes because, the cross spoke design is utterly complicated. It is best that the dealerships replace these rims and give customers a peace of mind and reduce their risk to life and limb. But, in India, you are shortchanged because BMW Motorrad India quietly told their dealers to simply tighten these spokes and continue operations as if there were zero issues.


Add to that, globally, there are just two aftermarket firms that know what it takes to true your bike's rim:

- Woody's wheel works ~$600 for a pair of rims and also guarantees 16000 miles of trouble free use.
- Hagon Shocks UK

Leaving this issue here, I'll move on to simply list all the links I used to collaborate my research.

BMW is the only manufacturer to use spoked tubeless wheels. The design uses a cross-spoke pattern, with the spoke nipple at the hub instead of the rim. The wheels are extremely strong, but need some maintenance. However, they are EXTREMELY difficult to true. The factory builds them on a CNC machine, with a final tune by an expert using very special equipment. Your BMW dealer will not touch these wheels, insisting on replacement, despite the rims being available as a separate part.

Source: Link

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4

Link 5

Link 6

Link 7

Link 8

There are more but I'll pause here in interest of switching to the crux of the issue.

2. Drive Shaft Failure:



There are stray cases of the drive shaft having given away by adventurers who've done water fording. I won't get into the depth of this issue because my bike hasn't given up on the drive shaft yet. But, I am vulnerable to it as many GS owners in the country have had their bike's driveshaft splines shaved off and stranded. I personally know 4 bikes that have gone through this and there could be more.

The crux of this issue is to do 3-4 things to ensure that your driveshaft runs the wheel and doesn't disconnect by shaving off the splines.

- Ensure that the rubber boot towards the end of the differential is always sealed and secure. Inspect it routinely to avoid any wear and tear permitting water entry into the drive shaft
- Replace diff oil every 20k kms or two years whichever is earlier. Costs a pittance ~Rs. 2k including labour
- Ensure that your final drive doesn't judder or vibrate. The vibe will typically reach your footpegs and the observant ones will distinctly feel it.


3. Electronic suspension failure:

There is atleast one known case in my circles where the entire ESA assembly gave up and the bike just beached itself without any assist on both wheels to cushion out the road. This points out to the suspension failure. Although rare, if your bike is out of warranty, you are bound to get a 4-5L rupee repair bill (My guesstimate) to get the bike back on the road.

Try and adjust your preloads once in a while to ensure smooth operations. Unfortunately, the suspension can sink unannounced when you are doing the runs of our northern or eastern hills. The only option in such a scenario would be to truck your bike back in embarrassment against your friendly Jap peers.

[moralfibre]

My Service and repair experience:

I'll start off with an appreciation note:

BMW Dealers are competent to do run of the routine mundane tasks which are limited to: Fluid changes, filter replacements, bike washing at best. I've had a reasonably fair experience with good attention to detail to these jobs. Beyond this is where their hands turn jittery and you'll be left in the lurch with a fairly sorry excuse of a motorcycle that you won't be able to enjoy for the joy it pretends to offer post the debacle.

Here's my story on this, read on with an XL sized cup of coffee to understand how botched up a premium car / bike dealer can be.


Background:

June-2020:

My motorcycle had a dinged front rim. Although the rest of the motorcycle was perfectly upright and usable, the dinged rim was a cause of concern as the dent was prominent and required a replacement. As it would be right to do so, I visited the local dealership and submitted my request for replacement under insurance. Therefore, the process began.

Since I was armed with prior information of BMW's rim repair to be a tricky affair, I met the works manager and confirmed their stance on it. His clear words to me were: "Only the outer rim that is dinged alongwith 4-5 ancillary spokes will require a replacement. We are competent enough to un-lace, re-lace and true the rim to factory spec. We've done this before"

I truly believed them given my past experience of basic service and equipment with them being of high standards. Unfortunately, this was only the beginning of my ordeal.

Since I did not have a cashless insurance facility with the dealer, I had to submit claim forms, etc myself and I happily did it.

The works manager suggested that an advance be placed to avoid further delay of procuring parts. So I promptly placed an advance of some Rs. 20-25k with the dealer. Since I do not shy short of spending what is required I did not hesitate in paying anything to the dealer. The total estimate was ~60k and I had paid close to 40% of the bill without batting an eyelid. Therefore, let there be no debate on my intent to have a cordial relation with the dealer in terms of trying to short change them or whatever in this botched up repair attempt.

The repair job:

1st week of August'20

Unfortunately the wheel arrival coincided with a strict lockdown that was enforced in the last week of July, therefore the earliest that the bike could be worked on appeared to be the 1st week of August'20. Therefore, I started my follow up and checked with the dealer who kept dilly dallying on the repair job. I was wondering if it was lack of skill at play or manpower issues. In retrospect, most of their technicians have either been retrenched or left on their own accord to join other competent dealers due to issues. There was just one poor joe working there who is saddled with running no end for fixing stuff.

Since COVID was at peak, I avoided workshop visits but my impatience grew on me because somedays the rim was out for a truing job with an expert and somedays they stated they were doing this in-house. I was confused and doubtful but my otherwise suspicious instincts did not raise any alarms. After 10 days I lost patience and confronted the works manager who admitted that they were short staffed and weren't in a position to fix the rim for me. However to his credit he offered me a temporary rim from a demo bike to get my bike on the road while they worked on mine. Luckily for me, I happened to click a picture of their wheel fix apparatus and that helped me trace back the issue:



That was reasonable enough and continued using my bike through the later part of 1st week of August.

3rd week of August'20

I get a frantic call from the dealer on a Friday seeking an appointment to swap out our rims as they had completed the fix on my bike. Since I was busy on the Friday as well as the weekend, they offered to come to my doorstep on Monday and swap the rim out. I was a bit surprised that they sat on it for 2 weeks but suddenly one Friday they got it all done and dusted.

The rim was swapped on a Monday and since it was COVID time, I didn't have much riding to do. Coincidentally, my close buddy and I had to ride to the konkan belt for property related work. So we took all required permissions and set out on bikes instead of our car. It was a good opportunity to check the bike's repair job. The road from Pune till Khed in Ratnagiri is completely broken. One cannot even hit 70-80kmph on this stretch. Constant pouring rains complicated matters.

Finally around Khed we got an opportunity to push the bike a bit and I was shocked and scared. The handlebar had a death wobble like experience. It felt like the front will break out like a toothpick and leave me on the road like an organ donor! Immediately informed my riding buddy that we need to slowdown. The wobble was vertical as well as horizontal.

I was furious. Next day I left a message on whatsapp to the works manager at Bavaria motors who offered to fix it for me. No apologies for lack of professionalism offered. In retrospect, I am sure they didn't fix jack with the bike. When they had to send the demo bike back, they simply tightened all spokes and sent a faulty rim my way. The earlier rig pic is a glaring example of it.

Thereafter I got into my research and found out that an appropriate rig requires a dial gauge to measure wheel runouts. A horizontal and vertical runout has to be measured and needs to be within 4mm of max tolerance with all spokes tightened. Here's a picture from the internet of what it takes to true the rim to spec. Compare it to the picture earlier. A simple paper roll cylinder held in place to measure the runout visually! How on earth were they planning to measure 4mm clearance with their naked eye?



The bike experienced it's first tow to the workshop post that monsoon filled ride:




A week or so later, the bike is returned to me with confirmation that it was fixed. This time I visited the dealership and requested for a TD before confirmation. Now anyone who has visited the dealership would know that the dealer lacks open highway access. So I could only go about 20 kms to and fro and gun it for a brief moment. The vibrations didn't seem pronounced. But I did leave the dealer with a message that I shall try this out on a longer highway stretch to confirm. This was around the 4th week of Aug'20.

2nd week of Sep'20:

Had the opportunity to do a longish ride on the bike. Observed carefully and on tar roads the vibrations were present but feeble. On concrete surfaces it was clearly permeating more prominently. It was clear that the wheel was not true to the spec and I was convinced that it wasn't a job well done. In retrospect I regretted opting for a repair.

This is a month and half past the original issue and I was still struggling to get a fix. Another issue I observed visually was that all the grub screws had started rusting. This was unlike something I had experienced before:



I wrote to BMW India and marked the workshop in copy. Because I wanted to escalate this matter on priority. My first email was sent on 18Sep'20 with a synopsis of my bike's issue. I received a prompt response in about 6 hours assuring me of a resolution.

The bike was towed subsequently towed to the workshop on a flatbed. Time to rename Link (PICS : How flatbed tow trucks would run out of business without German cars!) and add "bikes" to the list.

[moralfibre]

Email communication and delayed responses with radio silence:

Since I had enough with the BMW dealer, I decided to rope in BMW Motorrad India in the saga. My first email to them was on 18Sep'20. The last email in this chain was on 01Nov'20.

Number of emails and reminders sent by me: 18
Number of emails from BMW India: 5
Number of emails from Bavaria Motors: 2

Reminders sent: 6

Resolution: ZERO! Won't caption pics but dates of every email are visible. And pardon the occasional high handedness but dealing with them is frustrating!

[moralfibre]

Summary:

My expectation is very simple. Bavaria motors opens up the rim at my expense. Puts it on the truing rig, setup a dial gauge and prove that the rim runout measures are within tolerance. If it isn't they replace the whole assembly at their cost. Because a repair job is far from their competence.

However, they have maintained radio silence and BMW India hasn't done jack about their silence. Shows how premium brands treat their customers.

Conclusion:

When I got the GS, it was an experience I wished to cherish for the next 4-5 years. The bike is barely 2 years old and I've already pushed north of 17000km on it. The rides on it are memorable until you start facing reliability issues. Adventure bikes are not for riding to the local Starbucks or that longish breakfast ride either. The fun element is when one does north of 300-400km. The experience is unmatched.

But, when reliability issues start creeping in, it is scary to run these bikes for long hauls with lack of support. Therefore, it is only prudent that the bike finds a rightful owner who can use it.


Lastly, these are BMW's global motorcycle sales Y-o-Y



There is a total of roughly 1000 BMW bikes running around in India by my guesstimate. That constitutes roughly 0.57% of BMW's yearly sales. Therefore, I would best assume that they don't give a damn about what the needs and ambitions of riders in India are. You are best left to your fate. Even if every Indian superbike owner pretty much pays 2.5x of what a biker in the west pays owing to our fat duty and tax structures.

But, BMW Motorrad India will treat you like a door mat once you ride your bike out of the showroom.

Good luck and ride safe!

[moralfibre]

Thread moved from the Assembly line to the Superbikes and Imports section.

[nitrogary]

Originally Posted by moralfibre

Summary:

My expectation is very simple. Bavaria motors opens up the rim at my expense. Puts it on the truing rig, setup a dial gauge and prove that the rim runout measures are within tolerance. If it isn't they replace the whole assembly at their cost. Because a repair job is far from their competence.

But, BMW Motorrad India will treat you like a door mat once you ride your bike out of the showroom.

Good luck and ride safe!

I understand your frustration. I really hope they own up and do what is right.

BMW does have a habit of treating you like a doormat once the sale is done.
My personal experience has not been so bad. My service experience has been good also.
But some people there do need a better understanding on customer focused behavior.

As discussed, let's try a few other options also if you see no light at the end of the tunnel from Bavaria.

Best luck!

[navpreet318]

Please don't mind my comments but I feel that was a major error you made when you agreed to a repair job!! What were you thinking!!
This is a wheel for god's sake. Not a car door panel when can be repaired.
The metal no longer has the required strength at that location once it is forced back into its original shape. It deformed and it is being forced back into it's original shape without the use of any of the forming processes when it was originally made.

Always replace! I have this problem with me. I always prefer a replacement for anything and everything. Even if it means fighting with the insurance and workshop people or screwing their and their senior's happiness. You have to be a stubborn idiot when it comes to getting your way with these guys. Next time your car of bikes comes in they won't even think twice before agreeing to whatever I ask for.

I squarely blame you for this fiasco. Dealers and their staff is always like this. They will earn a lot more at repair than at replacement. Labour is an item they all love.

Exactly opposite to that is why I don't have a denting and painting center at my dealership. I have a mantra of replacement for all customers. Because of which insurance companies have a problem with me. But my customers are happy and I have huge turnover of accidental repair compared to my competitors!!

[moralfibre]

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Please don't mind my comments but I feel that was a major error you made when you agreed to a repair job!! What were you thinking!!
This is a wheel for god's sake. Not a car door panel when can be repaired.
The metal no longer has the required strength at that location once it is forced back into its original shape. It deformed and it is being forced back into it's original shape without the use of any of the forming processes when it was originally made.

Navpreet, I think you missed it. They replaced the outer rim and used rest of the components like the hub and majority of the spokes. This is what the dealer said can be done. I had clearly asked him to replace the entire assembly in insurance to which he said it wasn't possible.

I squarely blame you for this fiasco. Dealers and their staff is always like this. They will earn a lot more at repair than at replacement. Labour is an item they all love.

Sure, you want me to leave all my work and life and chase them to ensure that a job is done?

By your assessment, labour was the majority of the component. But, truth is that the rim was 45-50k out of 65k. Labour was barely 10% of the total bill. Therefore your assessment is inaccurate.

[navpreet318]

Originally Posted by moralfibre

Navpreet, I think you missed it. They replaced the outer rim and used rest of the components like the hub and majority of the spokes. This is what the dealer said can be done. I had clearly asked him to replace the entire assembly in insurance to which he said it wasn't possible.



Sure, you want me to leave all my work and life and chase them to ensure that a job is done?

By your assessment, labour was the majority of the component. But, truth is that the rim was 45-50k out of 65k. Labour was barely 10% of the total bill. Therefore your assessment is inaccurate.

There is no need to stop working to get after them. If you think that's the way things get done then well you don't know how to get things done.

Wheels are made in assemblies. They are not assembled at BMW plants. They come from a vendor and are complete assemblies. If you would have pushed in the correct manner that would have been the case.

Now coming to the labour part, 10% labour is still huge compared to absolute nil if the wheel would have been completely changed. This is how economics are made to work.

Look don't get worked up that I'm taking away anything from your post about bmw. No I'm not.
I have a GS too. 2012 when almost everyone knew only Hayabusa or a Harley!! If you see my thread you'll find that I was so aghast from their first service and it's subsequent bill of 25k that I forgot about everything and started servicing it myself. Till date I do it myself.

Plus I have read enough cases of their bad service and customer service. So I'm with you on that.

I'm a bit more touchy about my bikes and cars than most. That's why I'm the toughest to deal with when it comes to taking care of it.

[bf1983]

Quite a horrible thread to read. I always look with envy when I see a few BMW 1200GS bikes glide over potholes while I have to stand on the pegs or face a shock to my spine ! But its so sad to know their service is so bad. I can't imagine why they still insisted on fixing a component as important as wheel when these bikes can exceed 200 kph with ease.

The fault however is fully on BMW. When you pay so much for a bike it's not too much to ask for a little better service when as it is there are so few customers owning these bikes. Hope BMW can make things right with your bike cause I don't know who will buy the bike in its current condition if you are serious about selling your bike.

[virkdoc]

moralfibre I completely understand the pain you have gone through. My experience is that the dealers are ok but Motorrad India doesnt let them be independent. Every little thing has to go through BMW India. This wastes a lot of time and energy. Mine is a 2018 GSA and the list of things that have failed on the bike is endless. To name a few
1) Quickshifter stops working.Has happened 3 times and everytime has to be hooked up to the BMW software
2) Were leaving for a long ride (The 300-400kms) one and headlight stopped working.
3) Was riding in Rajasthan and the front shock leaked. Was changed under warranty
4) Went out for a ride with my son and the rear shock failed. Again to be replaced under warranty but not available in India so waiting time is 4-6 weeks minimum. Imagine a bike which cannot be ridden during the best weather of the year.
5) Rear brake faulty. The pedal became mushy and would stop responding. It took Motorrad about 3-6 months to be convinced that the brake doesnt work. Everytime the dealer would call Motorrad and they would ask to do a weird fix. They even wanted to change my brake pads which had 40% life left in them. I was like are you kidding me. They bled the system about 3-4 times, changed crush washers etc and finally replaced the rear master cylinder which fixed the issue.
Motorrad India is like a dictator to dealers. Every little thing has to be routed through them and the managers have absolutely no say in it.

My friend is facing the same brake issue(2017 GS Rally) and Motorrad again going through the same paces of weird fixes including telling him that the pads are not OEM hence the pedal is mushy. I mean its laughable. Eventually his rear brake jammed up as he rode it out of the dealership and now Motorrad has agreed to replace the Master Cylinder.
I think BMW motorrad needs to loosen up a bit in its warranty claims and quit treating the dealers like little kids.
But I would like to conclude that its a beautiful bike to ride. The pleasure is just amazing.
Motorrad India please be a little more proactive towards your customers. Its not a moped customers have purchased but the most expensive adv bike in the country.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by moralfibre

They replaced the outer rim and used rest of the components like the hub and majority of the spokes. This is what the dealer said can be done. I had clearly asked him to replace the entire assembly in insurance to which he said it wasn't possible.

That’s a new for me. Either dealership or the BMW is sitting on a lot of rims without spokes, that they offered you just the outer.
There was no valid reason to offer without spokes as assembled set as they can’t set true. Are you absolutely sure that you have got a new wheel?

There was a recall and on some of the earlier complaints in India and they did replaced complete wheels. But later on stopped and started tightening. I don’t think the local dealerships are competent to set the wheels true and the equipment they carry is like what cycle repair shops do.

I had some lose spokes too and they tried to tighten but made the ride worst, thankfully at Chandigarh, service head for Bike and Car is the same guy and a very helpful fella. He took up appropriately and got an approval. They had an extra set which was put on my bike the same day. Now, I think I have been lucky.

I will try to pass the link to this thread to few guys, let’s hope they realize the error and do the right thing by changing the complete wheel.

[sandeepmohan]

After you spend ~$35,000 on a motorcycle, it looks like you need to spend a significant amount of money and your time, to keep the bike road worthy or road safe! How can a company like BMW sign off on a motorcycle design when there appear to be some fundamental design flaws! These aren't minor flaws like a bad switch position or design. These are serious part and mechanical faults.

It looks like they went ahead with this innovative wheel rim/spoke design without any real world testing. Computer simulations are all well and good. No matter what, a new design has to be tested on the road.

Where is the joy in owning a motorcycle when the experience is like this. Clearly; customer satisfaction isn't the priority for BMW Motorrad India. I would move on. Get a Africa Twin or something else instead. This ain't worth it.

[virkdoc]

The loose spokes is not a design flaw! The cross spoke wheels have been around since 2013 on the Liquid Cooled bikes. Later 2017 and early 2018 models had a bad lot of wheels and the dealers all over the world were changing out the complete rims.