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6th August 2008, 23:53 | #31 | ||
Senior - BHPian | Quote:
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Let me assure you that the bike market in India is NOTHING like the car market, wherein the home players stand to lose if not protected. Sure, nobody would buy a Scorpio at Tundra's price if made available, but people are still buying ZMA's & 220's at R15's expense (which, BTW, is not completely manufactured in India). The point that I'm trying to make is that the duties are fine for bikes below 600CC wherein home-grown markets could lose to lesser priced models from China or Malaysia (they do have manufacturers, by the way). Regarding the "performance bikes" from HH & Bajaj, these "puny" machines have come into existence after 10 years of existence. India has never been a performance oriented market. Mass volumes have been garnered by small capacity machines. So do not expect HH, Bajaj & the like to invest in high capacity machines. You do not see Maruti gunning for BMW 3-series/5-series now, do you? I'm not against the govt. itself. Just the customs & DMV. Sure, they have better things to do, but for god's sake, change these stupid laws. | ||
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7th August 2008, 02:08 | #32 | |||||||
Team-BHP Support | Quote:
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Launching the R1 & the MT-01 just about 20% more than gray market prices is an excellent job carried out by Yamaha. This is with fully duty (145% i reckon), road tax, e.t.c. all inclusive, heck with a warranty too. Makes you wonder how much money the gray market agents make, or just how inefficient their way of working really is. Quote:
Name ten automobile majors from each country without using google. Quote:
The companies ake some time to react to altered tastes & prefrences. It may have taken longer than usual in this case, but even the spurt in demand is not like a million units. Yamaha dropped in with the RD, realised the consumer wanted something more fuel efficient, and they almost struck a great balance with the RXs. They had a few years of turmoil, and have tested waters with the R1 & the MT 01. Had the demand been tremendous, who knows Yamaha could have setup a manafacturing facility for all their race bred motorcycles in India as well, which would pass the import tariffs and instead maybe even have bikes priced further lower than the international markets. Quote:
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manson. | |||||||
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7th August 2008, 16:24 | #33 |
BHPian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Madras / Bangalore
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| Great thread. Good discussion points from T-BHPians. My thoughts are: 1. In a country of 1+ billion, the number of people who will buy super-bikes would be a few thousands. Putting myself in the government's shoes, I have enought things to worry than these few thousands for an issue which is not even 1% critical. 2. I dont think the government takes road safety as a main consideration when coming up with the import duty, which was finalised so many years back. It simply does not care, Otherwise why would pedestrians be still walking on the road due to lack of foot paths (I agree some people walk on the road even if there is a foot-path but most of us would love to walk on a well maintained foot-path) and why would the killer bus(government) drivers be still driving on the roads. 3. Even if the government reduces the import duty it is not going to increase the number of super-bikes drastically to increase it's duty revenue. Reducing the cost of SBKs by half will still mean the number of buyers will be in few thousands. 4. The reason for Indian companies not launching a bigger capacity bike is that they will not find volumes to justify the investment. Most of us enthusiasts who are shouting for bigger bikes (read 2-3 L range) are all here in some community / forum and we are not a huge crowd. We will wait for the best bike (individual preference) and buy if possible. 5. 50K or 50L, whatever be the price of bike, an irresponsible and dangerous guy would continue to be one. Thiyags |
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7th August 2008, 18:24 | #34 | |||||
Senior - BHPian | Quote:
It's easier said than done to manufacture and market a 600-1000cc bike. Especially when margins do not justify the development involved. Bajaj & HH have stuck to small machines knowing their facts well. All SBK players are international. Do you think a 1000CC TVS "Fieroid" would outsell a Gixxer in the States? Or Europe? Why do you think the German make MZ shut down their SBK plant? Poor management? Lack of technology? Nah. Hero Honda might be the largest selling motorcycle brand in the world, but that cannot break from the fact that Honda is still Hero's technology partner, and they have forbidden Hero from going ahead with their big bike plans; which is why their 350cc single cylinder (whose engine cutouts I've seen personally) model is in doldrums. Quote:
The R1 & MT-01 are still paying 156% + regn+ trasportation+ insurance. They're only devoid of homologation (except for the saree guard and number plates due to mandatory reasons) fees. It is easier for someone who has the money and already owns a SBK to say that SBK's ought to be expensive and all that. Come to the other side of the fence, think logically, and rattle those brains. Would you have waited for 15 years to get a domestic version of the 'Ace? No, right? The key word is choice. Not about economical growth. I'm with you if you say that the Honda Jazz needs to be taxed as a CBU, because it would pose a direct threat to Indicas and Swifts. Not the bikes, dear. Heck, I'll even agree to the govt. taxing below 800cc machines. Why can't they just remove customs off of the 800cc+ machines, since they don't require homologation?? Quote:
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The truth is, India will never have the infrastructure to aid enthusiasts the way we want it to. But that's okay. I'm a patriot, and India is a great country.. All we are asking for is equality. No govt. in the whole wide world supports enthusiasts. Nowhere does the law advocate free drivers/riders. It would be too much for us to ask for racetracks and bye-laws when India is still struggling with education, bare-basic infrastructure and supporting the poor. All we ask for is a little freedom and leeway for those with willpower and determination to achieve their dreams. Legally. One can always resort to illegal means to support their passion (one could have done that long time ago), but that's not the way it should be... | |||||
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8th August 2008, 15:14 | #35 | ||||||||||||
Team-BHP Support | Quote:
And, they could always buy patents, or technology from one of the four Jap majors, or even KTM and begin somwhere from the middle, and not scratch. Quote:
Develop a good product, and it sells! Even if it is from India. Period! Quote:
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Would even help the government earn foriegn revenue, win win situation for the government, tha two wheeler manafacturer and the enthusiast. Quote:
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So much for me waiting almost two whole years to gather a better budget and buy a legal bike. FYI, I could have bought a much newer crap papers bike over my 'fully legal & all duties/taxes paid' Thunderace with the same money, but chose to go the legal way. Quote:
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Btw, i asked for ten automobile majors in Thailand or Malaysia, two or four wheeler. Quote:
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But that's okay. I'm a patriot, and India is a great country.. All we are asking for is equality. No govt. in the whole wide world supports enthusiasts. Nowhere does the law advocate free drivers/riders. It would be too much for us to ask for racetracks and bye-laws when India is still struggling with education, bare-basic infrastructure and supporting the poor. [/quote] I am glad you understand. Quote:
manson. | ||||||||||||
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8th August 2008, 16:05 | #36 |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bombay
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That's exactly why I'm not rushing into it. Like I told you the other day, I have experienced first hand what an advantage it is to own a clean bike. You don't have to avoid "naka-bandi's"(if you're wearing a helmet)and can confidently show the papers of the bike to anyone. |
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10th August 2008, 02:14 | #37 | ||
Senior - BHPian | @manson: My dear, we have moved our discussion from why superbikes should not be expensive due to the duty structure to setting up plants in India, cutting of duties, and blah blah. The point is, on a realistic basis, none of the auto majors will set up a plant in India for a superbike. Period. Just like Lamborghini or Ferrari would never set shop in India. Sure, we might see some decent bikes from Bajaj or TVS, but that's a long time away. I believe that we should have the right to choose. That's all. Superbikes should be cheap/reasonably priced. BTW. MZ shut down because of competition. Some of their models had borrowed engines, fantastic styling, and developed a cult following as well....but... Quote:
People don't cry over illegal bikes because they save a bucketload. Enough to purchase another one, in certain cases..besides, you can fix most issues that the bikes come with; you only need keen interest and patience. There's an R1 over here which was brought in brand new for just about the same amount or so as your 'Ace. 2 years ago. No issues with the bike yet. Or so I've heard.... Quote:
I guess thiyags22 has rightly summarized what has been said all through.... | ||
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11th August 2008, 22:58 | #38 | ||||||
Team-BHP Support | Quote:
This will not only kill two birds with one stone, it will kill four. 1. It will help our domestic economy grow via job creation, and automobile allied industries. 2. The Japs can sell domestic Indian produce in interntaional markets and help India earn valuable foreign exchange. 3. Create an almost brand new market in India. 4. They could try and lower cost structure, India is yet cheap for input costs. And, if the international players are not setting up shop in India, they are the ones losing out, and nobody else. The government is bang on target, atlest where the economic growth of the country is the concern. Did you know that RR has a purpose based manafacturing facility in Navi Mumbai? Thats just an example. If a premium brand like RR can think of sourcing production from India, i wonder why the Japs have not yet come up with the same. Maybe its you favourite international two wheeler majors who do not want you ride that fancy motorcycle more than the government. Quote:
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In your earlier post the tone made it seem like it had some peculiar problems with manafacturing a superbike. Competition is the biggest killer, so whats the big deal if one company shut down? I am sorry, but i simply do not get your point in relation to this MZ company. Quote:
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Secondly, Vasai is quite a bit out of a metro, and the owner is not going to call you to express his 'bike may get impounded fear' everytime he passes a cop. And, for the amount i paid for my Thunderace, get me a brand new R1, or any other liter class bike from gray, blue, purple, yellow market, and i will purchase as many as you can sell me. I will purchase each and very one of those units you manage, sell all of them to gray market dealer for atleast a 3 lac margin and import one official liter class for every four units you sell to me, ar Rs. 12 lac each. Get over those brand new 5 lac stories, the best i have heard of is 8.5L for a liter class, and 2008 onwards the prices have rise to even 10, mainly cos' of the 2008 blade. And the 600s hover around the 7L range. manson. Last edited by manson : 11th August 2008 at 23:05. | ||||||
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12th August 2008, 00:05 | #39 |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bombay
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| 5 Lakhs is the sort of amount the importers get the bike for. Think about how much you get ripped off when you pay around 8-9 lakhs for that bike. Nice business, if you can invest in it! |
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12th August 2008, 00:35 | #40 |
Team-BHP Support | Base price of a liter class + shipping & packaging + clearing agent's fee + packet to the babu + registration + packet to babu in rto + assembling fee + money paid to babus to let the hoolah continue, just has to be a good chunk over 5L. Good business you which could be busted at the drop of a hat. manson. |
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12th August 2008, 14:59 | #41 | ||
Senior - BHPian | Quote:
My angle on this is why can't Yamaha/Honda/Suzuki who already have plants in India, expand to produce atleast the 600s for the Europe region based out of India (and sell in India and other parts of EMEA). esp with the low manufacturing costs here compared to Europe? Agreed a 'Fieriod' or a 'Pulsator' would not do even 1/4th as well as a Gixer or Kwacker in the States or Europe. However with the decent quality Bajaj is bringing out, I think they could bring a decent 600+/liter bike for about 3L. and I dont think its that difficult for them to do that in a 5-6 year span. I personally would rather buy a Indian made R6 / Gixer / CBR for 3-4L <head in the clouds> Quote:
Mods should tweak the title to something like "Honda bikes coming to India: Discussion moving to 800+cc bikes policy" | ||
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12th August 2008, 20:45 | #42 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bombay
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13th August 2008, 14:47 | #44 | |
Senior - BHPian | Quote:
just kidding. I am just cheesed with the whole situations, esp when I see that lame annoying Getz Milano ad. Why cant we see such an ad for a R6? | |
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14th August 2008, 03:42 | #45 | |||||||
Senior - BHPian | Quote:
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By your sense of business, all manufacturers should set up bases everywhere in the world, so that the respective countries can prosper via returns on their investements and keep enthusiasts happy. C'mon, be real. Component/spare part manufacturing is one thing. It's different. The only body to gain if a SBK plant is set in India is the govt. Quote:
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I had almost got my hands on an FZ6. But that's an old story. No point in beating dead grass. You want some gray imports? Sure. If you can take the risk, that is. You know my number. With your contacts and financial support, it shouldn't be too difficult.... | |||||||
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