[manson]

Originally Posted by veyron1

How true. Maybe, SBK makers can achieve a lower cost of manufacturing than their home country by setting base here. But the question is, will they?

If they don't they are the ones losing out on their Indian share, and possibly lower cost structure, surplus of which can be exported.

Originally Posted by veyron1

Maybe you have better in-depth knowledge of the raw material costs and actual production costs incurred in both Japan and India. However, I still have my doubts as to if they'll do what you say they will.

I do not have any indepth knowledge, but i generally know that the India has been a 'low cost' soil for decades now.
And, i have not in any of my posts said 'they will', but i think 'they should', please stop framing my words into a different meaning.

Originally Posted by veyron1

My question is, if they cannot beat the production costs (or can only match it), then why should they go ahead and invest additional money and resources to set up shop in India? In pure business sense, why waste resources, time and money on a project that has little or no ROI?

ROI?? They have made a ton, every one of them. I do not know of any Japanese major that has set base in India and has to to leave.
FYI, three of the four Japanese major already have production faciltities in India, and they just have to expand their product range, this time incorporating high performance ones to fulfill the Indian enthusiast's wish, and try and lower costs so that the surplus can be exported.
And how much more investment does it take to expand an existing product range, especially when you just have to bring your own technology directly to another manafacturing facility, you are guided by some myths about expansion costs.

Originally Posted by veyron1

By your sense of business, all manufacturers should set up bases everywhere in the world, so that the respective countries can prosper via returns on their investements and keep enthusiasts happy. C'mon, be real. Component/spare part manufacturing is one thing. It's different. The only body to gain if a SBK plant is set in India is the govt.

Again, please stop taking undue freedom to framing my words into a meaning of your own.
India has historically been know for lowered costs, hence the suggestion to expand current manafacturing facilities than having to import.
And, again please understand that not every country's growth comes via the automobile and allied industry, India is one of the few, and that is exactly why the government has made continous efforts to protect the same.

Originally Posted by veyron1

Nope. News to me, actually. Pray tell, what do they manufacture out there? Phantoms?? Dropheads?? And if they do manufacture the cars in Navi Mumbai, why are the damn cars still over twice as expensive as their foreign counterparts?

Wow, i wish that were true.
I said purpose based manfacturing facility, they manafacture engine components, and quite a bunch of spares at Navi Mumbai. And, this is directly owned subsidiary of RR.

Originally Posted by veyron1

Hence my outrage. Daylight robbery, what else? Do you know what the govt uses the income that they earn from the duty for?? Forgive me, I do not understand the nuances of govt. income/expenditures. But neither does anybody else, except DRI.

Now for this you will have to start another thread.

Originally Posted by veyron1

In a sense, yes. Quality and production was a concern, yes, but primarily, the Japanese competition made sure that MZ's didn't sell. That point was put forth to highlight a TVS vs Suzuki scenario.

So, quality and production were concerns, read that post of mine again. I think it read as 'What really is the risk if the R&D, manafacturing & marketing has been taken care of systematically.

Originally Posted by veyron1

In case I wasn't clear enough, I was trying to insinuate that these bikes are assembled here with enough accuracy. They do not have any major issues such as with ECM, harness, etc. or engine/chassis. Most issues I've seen are related to minor assembling gripes, such as swingarm fastening, minor electrical work such as couplers hanging around, etc. None major enough to warrant engine replacement, or improper steering/head bolt/misaligned T or such. Perhaps you've seen worse.

Maybe not engine replacement, but i have heard and seen worse than you mention.
Actually wait, i have heard of and seen the engine swap of a ZX9. Do you know why it happened, the best mech in Mumbai put Amri powder in the engine to reduce noise, Then a used engine was imported, and the bike yet does not run anything close to perfect.
Somewhere DKG had spoken about crap assembling of these gray market imports, you should ideally pm him for more horror stories.

Originally Posted by veyron1

but I cannot risk getting my baby impounded. Too much sentiments and money involved. I can't risk everything going down the drain.

Well, with your previous R1 example, you almost propagated that having a gray market import was safe. So, why exactly are you faltering now, or maybe better sense has just struck you.

Originally Posted by veyron1

I had almost got my hands on an FZ6. But that's an old story. No point in beating dead grass.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by veyron1

You want some gray imports? Sure. If you can take the risk, that is. You know my number. With your contacts and financial support, it shouldn't be too difficult....

You make it sound like if i want Pizzas tonight for dinner.
But my contacts? I never mentioned any. Give me the bikes duly registered for the figure you mentioned, and take the money.
You can pm/email/call me once they are ready for delivery.

manson.

[veyron1]

Originally Posted by manson

ROI?? They have made a ton, every one of them. I do not know of any Japanese major that has set base in India and has to to leave.

How many SBK majors have set shop in India so far? If you remember, we were talking about manufacturing of superbikes here. Not cars. Like I said, manufacturing of cars is a different ballgame. You simply cannot "expand" the manufacturing process to two wheelers. Why do you think Mahindra bought off shares in Kinetic to start two-wheeler manufacturing, instead of going their own? Mahindra has been wanting to get into two wheeler manufacturing since quite some time. IIRC, Mahindra had almost developed a scooterette 2 years ago, when they shelved their foray. Why do Honda Motorcycles and Cars have distinctly separate manufacturing plants? Because it's easier said than done.

Originally Posted by manson

And, again please understand that not every country's growth comes via the automobile and allied industry, India is one of the few, and that is exactly why the government has made continous efforts to protect the same.

I hope I'm not taking any undue freedom when I say that you are living in a dream-world. Govt. is protecting the industry only in it's own interests. Do you know how much a Chevrolet Optra 2.0 LT, for example, costs off the assembly line? Barely 7 lacs. And that's because I've seen the invoicing myself. It costs over 12 lacs on-road. The difference is made up in taxes.

Trust me, no Jap SBK maker stands to gain here unless they commit themselves to localisation to the tune of 100%. Which is why they shouldn't (better?) set shop here. Perhaps you did't read my posts carefully enough.

Originally Posted by veyron1

Component/spare part manufacturing is one thing. It's different. The only body to gain if a SBK plant is set in India is the govt.

I never said anything about automotive ancilliaries. Yes, India stands to gain a lot from spare-parts and after-market production. Not company/factory production, because the company has to invest all the money by itself, and the returns in terms of sales do not justify production. Even Merc, for example, the largest selling premium brand in India on the northern side of 20 lacs, does not have a production plant here. BMW's plant in Chennai assembles kits. And they're still taxed heavily.

Originally Posted by manson

I said purpose based manfacturing facility, they manafacture engine components, and quite a bunch of spares at Navi Mumbai. And, this is directly owned subsidiary of RR.

And the point being? Does the "purpose based manufacturing plant" reduce the end-product's costs? No, right? Please go through my post again. "COMPONENT-MANUFACTURING", in all it's meanings (ancilliaries, after-markets, subsidiaries et.al.) is not in question here. Does RR have a dedicated plant here? No. Should they? No. Because volumes do not justify investment. Will they over 100 years? Maybe. We are talking about the current time-frame. The nearest 5 years, or maybe 10.

Originally Posted by manson

That is simply because the Indian consumer has typically desired a high fuel effieciency, low power commuter, than an out & out performance inline four.

Remember this? Your statement personifies the Indian consumer's mentality. Even if Govt. reduces the duty to 0%, the sales figures for these bikes will not jump through the hoops. And no ZMA buyer will pay 8 times its cost for a Fireblade unless he's in the market for one, which means that the domestic industry is safe.

In fair trade practice, competition is given an equal platform. For example, had Govt. stuck with Maruti and HM's "protection" and taxed every other car maker to even set shop in India, would we have seen the current scenario as it is? Let all SBK makers launch their machines (800cc+) at their normal prices, and IF Bajaj or TVS wants to launch a litre class, they can go ahead and do so and challenge the Japs. Again, their sales volumes would be negligible.

The current tax structure is to protect the home industry. Agreed. There IS NO HOME INDUSTRY for litre class now. Nor do I see so in the near 10-year term. And the litre class bikes will not sell in thousands no matter what their costs. 3 lacs, or 13. So what's the point in taxing them? THIS IS THE POINT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO PUSH THROUGH. We do not need to go deep into who should/would/could go into manufacturing.

Originally Posted by manson

So, quality and production were concerns, read that post of mine again. I think it read as 'What really is the risk if the R&D, manafacturing & marketing has been taken care of systematically.

Please read my post again. I've cited again and again that competition was the primary reason for MZ's failure. If quality and production were the only concerns, makes like Harley would have shut shop long ago. Now, Harley is one of the world's oldest bike makers. It's American. Do you see America taxing Japs for protecting Harley? Agreed, USA might not be getting it's bread and butter from it's automotive industry, but neither is India. We are talking of mainstream production here.

Originally Posted by manson

Well, with your previous R1 example, you almost propagated that having a gray market import was safe. So, why exactly are you faltering now, or maybe better sense has just struck you.

I never propagated anything, and neither am I faltering. I quoted the R1 example to highlight that there aren't that many assembling issues as being spoken of. I never promoted gray market bikes. I was only trying to highlight that there ARE bikes coming in for those prices, and that the current ring of SBK owners are being ripped off. So are the potential ones. The R1-wallah has enough contacts to ride through a nakabandi with no number plates, and no one could touch him. I don't. Hence my statement that I cannot risk getting my baby impounded. I was speaking from the average enthusiast's POV.

Originally Posted by manson

You make it sound like if i want Pizzas tonight for dinner.
But my contacts? I never mentioned any. Give me the bikes duly registered for the figure you mentioned, and take the money.

Hm. I'm confused now.

Originally Posted by manson

And, for the amount i paid for my Thunderace, get me a brand new R1, or any other liter class bike from gray, blue, purple, yellow market, and i will purchase as many as you can sell me. I will purchase each and very one of those units you manage, sell all of them to gray market dealer for atleast a 3 lac margin and import one official liter class for every four units you sell to me, ar Rs. 12 lac each.

This is what you said. Which means that you would buy any number of bikes for whatever price and then you'd sell them to the gray market dealer and blah blah; which one can't do without sufficient cash and contacts. No mention of "duly registered". But then, we were speaking of grey market. Not "duly registered". The debacle wouldn't have occurred, had we been speaking of "duly registered" bikes for 4.5 lacs. Now, if you still want 'em bikes, we can go ahead. Heck, with your good heart, perhaps you can help me rake in enough moolah to get my very own set of wheels....

Even if I had a B-king/FZ1/Bandit right now, I would still be arguing about the duty structure, because I know of so many capable riders (who can show a thing or two; who respect machines like I do), who would love to own an SBK; but can't, due to the pricing and fear of legalities..

Please. All I've asked for you is to look at this objectively, from all angles. We do not need to twist each other's words out of context.

[manson]

Originally Posted by veyron1

How many SBK majors have set shop in India so far? If you remember, we were talking about manufacturing of superbikes here. Not cars.

Lol, i cant beleive you are actually asking me that.
Honda, Yamaha & Suzuki, all three of them have manafacturing facilities in India. They are manafacturing low segement single pots for now though. But, by general sense, to manafacture their super sports in India will not mean having to start from scratch. I really hope you can understand what i have said, as this is the third time i think i've had to repeat the same.

Originally Posted by veyron1

Why do you think Mahindra bought off shares in Kinetic to start two-wheeler manufacturing, instead of going their own? Mahindra has been wanting to get into two wheeler manufacturing since quite some time. IIRC, Mahindra had almost developed a scooterette 2 years ago, when they shelved their foray.

Simply because M&M historically has had nothing to do in the two wheeler market, so buying out equity in another company was the most viable option. But champ, i am talking about International two wheel manafacturers who are already in the Indian market to start sales of te high spec motorcycles in India in their EXISTING facilities, and export the surplus.

Originally Posted by veyron1

Why do Honda Motorcycles and Cars have distinctly separate manufacturing plants? Because it's easier said than done.

I am not of the opionion that a four wheeler major manafactures a high spec superbike in India, i simply am trying to make you understand that Honda for example can mafacture their 600-1000 cc bikes in their mnanafcaturing facility where their Unicorn is manafactured. The same goes for Yamaha & Suzuki too.

Originally Posted by veyron1

I hope I'm not taking any undue freedom when I say that you are living in a dream-world.

Well, you are.

Originally Posted by veyron1

Govt. is protecting the industry only in it's own interests.

The goverment's interest mostly implies the interest of the national economy, so if it is in tgheir interest, i am certainly a happy man.
And, if you are talking about taxation and all that, pal almost everything you consume on a daily basis, is taxed very heavily. So, why just highlight automobiles?

Originally Posted by veyron1

Do you know how much a Chevrolet Optra 2.0 LT, for example, costs off the assembly line? Barely 7 lacs. And that's because I've seen the invoicing myself. It costs over 12 lacs on-road. The difference is made up in taxes.

Everything usually carries excise, that itself propels the price by quite a margin.

Originally Posted by veyron1

Trust me, no Jap SBK maker stands to gain here unless they commit themselves to localisation to the tune of 100%. Which is why they shouldn't (better?) set shop here. Perhaps you did't read my posts carefully enough.

What is the harm in 100% localisation? And, I have read every post of your very carefully, so once again stop gettin presumptious with i do, and how i do.

Originally Posted by veyron1

I never said anything about automotive ancilliaries. Yes, India stands to gain a lot from spare-parts and after-market production. Not company/factory production, because the company has to invest all the money by itself, and the returns in terms of sales do not justify production.

You seem to have very little idea of how automobile production is carried out.
The entry and exit of any car, motorcycle and heavy vehicle has a direct effect on the automobile allied industry.
The manafacturing company simply outsources most of its production to engineering and other companies.

Originally Posted by veyron1

Even Merc, for example, the largest selling premium brand in India on the northern side of 20 lacs, does not have a production plant here.

So now you want to talk cars again! Anyways, i am not sure, but what does Mercedes exactly have at Pune. I was told sometime back that they assemble cars there, again i am not sure about the same except for the fact that they have something at Pune.

Originally Posted by veyron1

And the point being? Does the "purpose based manufacturing plant" reduce the end-product's costs? No, right?

Lol, it obviosuly does, and the lowered costs mean higher profits for the parent company. If outsourcing does not reduce costs, why would any company outsource?

Originally Posted by veyron1

Remember this? Your statement personifies the Indian consumer's mentality.

Yes, but there is a miniscule enthusiast bunch who will buy high spec motorcycles, if the company can manafacture more than the demand at a feasible costs structure, then it could export the extra surplus
One very important thing, if Honda sell the CBR 1000 for an ex showroom tag of say 10,000 USD, thats about 4,30,000 INR, in the US, and then they started manafcaturing the same here and offered the same motorcycle for say 12,000 USD, thats 5,16,000 INR, it would yet do well, and eradicate the gray market for good. This is just for example sake, and please do not take literal meaning out of anything.

Originally Posted by veyron1

Even if Govt. reduces the duty to 0%, the sales figures for these bikes will not jump through the hoops. And no ZMA buyer will pay 8 times its cost for a Fireblade unless he's in the market for one, which means that the domestic industry is safe.

Read the above CBR 1000 example again.

Originally Posted by veyron1

In fair trade practice, competition is given an equal platform. For example, had Govt. stuck with Maruti and HM's "protection" and taxed every other car maker to even set shop in India, would we have seen the current scenario as it is?

We did not really have an automobile industry back then when the gandhi sibling brought down Suzuki, alllowing them to enter would only mean better for the allied industry.
Allowing any foreign make to enter the domestic market with its manafacturing facility could mostly on mean good news for the domestic economy.

Originally Posted by veyron1

Let all SBK makers launch their machines (800cc+) at their normal prices, and IF Bajaj or TVS wants to launch a litre class, they can go ahead and do so and challenge the Japs. Again, their sales volumes would be negligible.

Thats exactly why the Indian makes need protection, let the Japs enter in the domestic way and then they will not face any import duty.

Originally Posted by veyron1

The current tax structure is to protect the home industry. Agreed.

Thank God.

Originally Posted by veyron1

There IS NO HOME INDUSTRY for litre class now. Nor do I see so in the near 10-year term. And the litre class bikes will not sell in thousands no matter what their costs. 3 lacs, or 13. So what's the point in taxing them?

The point in taxing them i have clearly explained in a post prior to this, distinctly in respect to domestic produce. I request you to read the last few posts again.

Originally Posted by veyron1

Hm. I'm confused now.

This is what you said. Which means that you would buy any number of bikes for whatever price and then you'd sell them to the gray market dealer and blah blah;

I will clear it up for you.
Get me a Brand New liter class current worldwide spec motorcycle for the price (not whatever price like you mention in your post) i paid for my Ace, and i will busy every unit you could supply, with or without registration, its cool.
Lastly, if you think its blah blah, why even talk about it. If you cannot have a healthy coversation without making attempts to ridicule my opinion, i would not want to post after this.

Originally Posted by veyron1

We do not need to twist each other's words out of context.

I doubt i have been twisting anything, i am just trying to simplify it for you.

manson.

[veyron1]

Originally Posted by manson

Lol, i cant beleive you are actually asking me that.
Honda, Yamaha & Suzuki, all three of them have manafacturing facilities in India.

This is why I ask you to read my posts with a cool mind. Perhaps I should've been more clearer. Although we have the "brandnames" here, we do not have SBK plants. Hence my phrase. Again, let me try to be clear. Manufacturing single-pot machines is not like manufacturing SBK's. Yes, they do not have to start from scratch; and NO, it's not the same thing to expand an existing facility to produce SBK's. Computer numerical controlled machines have enough flexibility to allow for a certain degree of expansion; but the cells/volumes itself are under question here. The same turners and millers cannot be used for precision engineering components as vastly different as a single pot and a multi-pot.

Originally Posted by manson

i simply am trying to make you understand that Honda for example can mafacture their 600-1000 cc bikes in their mnanafcaturing facility where their Unicorn is manafactured.

You are joking, right? My friend, you need to see the difference in the engineering capabilities of the Japanese and Indian plants yourself before you come to conclusions. Let me quote an example. China already has plants from Honda. Labour is most definitely cheaper in China than India. So is procurement of raw materials. Why do you think Honda hasn't set an SBK plant in China? Like you say, it shouldn't be too difficult to expand, right? Why hasn't any other manufacturer, for that matter??

Honda's Indian plant at Manesar Haryana is like a joke. Of course, I haven't seen it, but from what I've heard, they are struggling to manufacture the current crop. Which is why they're already planning a second plant elsewhere. A bigger one.

Originally Posted by manson

Well, you are.

In that case, apologies. But you need stop being hypocritical and ridiculing my logic.

Originally Posted by manson

So, why just highlight automobiles?

Because that's what we're discussing here.

Originally Posted by manson

You seem to have very little idea of how automobile production is carried out.

And I'm the one being presumptious? Okay. Let me take a wild shot in the dark here. A company sets up a manufacturing plant where they machine the most basic parts like the engine block, frame, sheet panels etc. Once the model is finalised, they give their required designs to selected component manufacturers who manufacture and supply parts like fasteners, certain engine components, rubber components, fabric, etc. The final product is assembled in what we call the assembly line. That's production in a nutshell, ain't it? I'm not getting into details of R&D, paintshops, frame moulding and all that. But heck, what do I know.

The reason why I specified auto-manufacturing and separated it from the ancilliaries/spare parts biz is because it's a different industry altogether. Yes, it works in tandem with the brands, but only one component manufacturer in every hundred or so gets to be tagged as a OEM.

Originally Posted by manson

Lol, it obviosuly does, and the lowered costs mean higher profits for the parent company.

Let me clarify. I specified end-product. As in, the actual product cost to the consumer. More profits for the parent company doesn't mean cheaper products for the consumer. Like your RR, for example. The plant in Navi mumbai; what does it manufacture? How much has it reduced the Phantom's cost by?

Obviously, outsourcing reduces costs for the parent company and enhances profits. But think from the consumer's POV. What do we get? Jack. Sure, in the long term, when the company and government has raked in enough moolah, they might reduce costs. One word. Inflation. The adverse effect of the so-called growth.

Okay. Let me simplify this further.

Q: Should superbikes be taxed heavily?
A: No.

Q: Does taxing protect the home-grown automotive industry?
A: Yes.

Q: Does taxing SBK's heavily help the industry?
A: No.

Q: Why?
A: Because of lack of competition and volumes.

Q: Will the localisation of SBK's affect the industry positively?
A: In due time, yes.

Q: Will cancellation of import duties for 800cc+ affect the industry NOW?
A: NO.

Q: Should auto-majors set shop in India for SBK's?
A: Sure, if they want to.

Q: Can we wait till they do?
A: No. Not unless they do so in the next two years.

Q: Should superbikes be out of reach for the common man?
A: No.

Q: Should enthusiasts be able to afford SBK's?
A: Yes. That's the whole point. The common man would never go for an SBK in the first place.

Q: Are grey market imports cheap?
A: Yes.

Q: Are they viable?
A: No. Not because of technical feasibility, but because the stupid govt. can hold you ransom for duties. It's like legalised blackmail by DRI.

Q: Can domestic manufacturers produce SBK's?
A: Yes.

Q: So why not wait?
A: Because I won't be fit to ride an SBK in my seventies.

Q: Does the automobile ancilliary business depend upon the brands themselves?
A: YES.

Q: Is the spare part industry similar to OEM's?
A: No. Both lie on different scales.

Q: Is the profitability of outsourcing passed onto the consumer?
A: In most cases, no.

Q: Is the automotive ancilliaries/spare parts industry going to be benefitted by the setting up of SBK plants?
A: Not much. Because spare parts for SBK's are imported from Japan everywhere else in the world as well.

I hope I've put my points across as simply as possible.

[manson]

Originally Posted by veyron1

Okay. Let me simplify this further.

Q: Should superbikes be taxed heavily?
A: No.

Q: Does taxing protect the home-grown automotive industry?
A: Yes.

Q: Does taxing SBK's heavily help the industry?
A: No.

Q: Why?
A: Because of lack of competition and volumes.

Q: Will the localisation of SBK's affect the industry positively?
A: In due time, yes.

Q: Will cancellation of import duties for 800cc+ affect the industry NOW?
A: NO.

Q: Should auto-majors set shop in India for SBK's?
A: Sure, if they want to.

Q: Can we wait till they do?
A: No. Not unless they do so in the next two years.

Q: Should superbikes be out of reach for the common man?
A: No.

Q: Should enthusiasts be able to afford SBK's?
A: Yes. That's the whole point. The common man would never go for an SBK in the first place.

Q: Are grey market imports cheap?
A: Yes.

Q: Are they viable?
A: No. Not because of technical feasibility, but because the stupid govt. can hold you ransom for duties. It's like legalised blackmail by DRI.

Q: Can domestic manufacturers produce SBK's?
A: Yes.

Q: So why not wait?
A: Because I won't be fit to ride an SBK in my seventies.

Q: Does the automobile ancilliary business depend upon the brands themselves?
A: YES.

Q: Is the spare part industry similar to OEM's?
A: No. Both lie on different scales.

Q: Is the profitability of outsourcing passed onto the consumer?
A: In most cases, no.

Q: Is the automotive ancilliaries/spare parts industry going to be benefitted by the setting up of SBK plants?
A: Not much. Because spare parts for SBK's are imported from Japan everywhere else in the world as well.

I hope I've put my points across as simply as possible.

I agree with most of the above, a few parts of which i dont agree with i have posted my difference in opinions about in my various posts already in this thread.

manson.

[samyakmodi]

Originally Posted by maxj2005

There are a lot of modification you can do with a super bike to make it a true ghost rider.These super bikes are built to perform at much higher levels than they are originally sold at.

You can buy Nitrous Oxide Kits and enhance performance to 50% by just this mod.It gives you a 10-30 sec blast of power.

I wish to get my hands on these soon.

Check out these links for other modification.

13 Motorcycle Performance Tips - Super Streetbike Magazine
Racers Corner

nice tips there max. thanx.

But dude just think for a moment. 10-30 seconds of blast at a speed of 250kmph means you would be travelling close to 70 meters per second. I really do not know many places in India where you can get about a kilometer clear stretch of road with no cow/dog giving u a surprise or none of the other commuters deciding to stop in middle of the road, or maybe taking a U-turn or just simply cut across you while they are coming on a wrong side.

I am sure that all the riders must have had a fall or 2 atleast because of some "responsible" commuter on the road who didnt notice them.

Now just imagine you cruising at around a decent 70-80 kms an hour on your superbike and suddenly the gentleman in front of you decides to stop and take a U-turn without even looking. Or maybe someone just takes a right turn from the opposite direction cutting across right on your path.
Scary?!?!?
Trust me for this, this is one of the scariest thing you will ever come across in life. I have experienced it.

Now imagine your next door brat who doesnt even know how to ride a bicylce properly gets a superbike because "mom dad love their munna/guddu too much to say no." and its more affordable than ever before!!
Now this munna/guddu would not only break the bike and his bones but would make everyone else's life miserable on the roads.

All in all the more expensive the bike is the more out of reach it is for the munna/guddu/hero out there on the roads.

I say save up if you really want one. I belong to a middle class family and I saved up enough to realise my dream. Its not that difficult.

More so we also have to think about the Indian manufacturers. If those bikes are available who would ever buy any Indian bike? No sales=Huge losses. Huge losses = closure. Closure = unemployment.
So not only would we be taken down from the second most populated country, we would also be thrown into the most unemployed country.

For the better good of everyone, we should try and save up and realise our dreams

[maxj2005]

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

So not only would we be taken down from the second most populated country, we would also be thrown into the most unemployed country.

And also one of the most polluted countries too.

There are a few highways where you can try these quick blast's.One of them is the noida expressway which is quite famous among the speed crazy bikers.
I would surely not try it on a small busy road with cycle and autowalas around.

I am too saving to get my hands on the 09' R1.I has always been my dream to owe one.

All said Money hai to honey hai.

[straight6]

Originally Posted by maxj2005

And also one of the most polluted countries too.

There are a few highways where you can try these quick blast's.One of them is the noida expressway which is quite famous among the speed crazy bikers.
I would surely not try it on a small busy road with cycle and autowalas around.

I am too saving to get my hands on the 09' R1.I has always been my dream to owe one.

All said Money hai to honey hai.

SBK's are nowhere near as polluting as the 2-strokes and the ill maintained trucks, buses and tempos.

[maxj2005]

Originally Posted by straight6

SBK's are nowhere near as polluting as the 2-strokes and the ill maintained trucks, buses and tempos.

Of course I did not mean the SBK's .They are a state of the art machines not like our trucks which still run on kerosine in some places.

I came across this website while random web surfing in office (I am jobless most of the times). I read various threads and was throughouly impressed with the level of maturity displayed by the members.

Until I came across this thread. And posting in this thread is the only reason why I bothered registering here at all.

I did not understand how having peak duties of upto 300% can "protect" the splendours/victors/passions and the so called performance bikes like Pulsars/Karizmas/etc.

And do people who advocate for protectionism realize how ancient they sound? The "economic growth" that lot of people are seemingly holding on to their dear life, has come about by something called as globalization. But then, if you are a Rip Van Winkle you would not know.

If the Escorts, Bajajs where protected during eighties, we would not have RXs, Shoguns at all. Fact of the matter is, there is nothing sacrosanct about nationalism in business. If Bajaj or TVS canot give us superbikes then somebody else will. We do not become patriots by protecting few business families.

The only sensible point to come out of this thread is why dont the international majors set up manufacturing facilities here. One straighforward answer is the volumes here will be very low and would not justify such investments. BUt that still leaves the "exports" question unanswered. However, there is nothing sacrosanct about having their manufacturing facilities here either. Do you think there will be 1lakh R1's produced/year? And with the limited production how many people will get employment, which apparantely is the moral justification for having them here.

It is just a lousy attitude of government thats it. A sad remnant of socialist days, where the thinking is "if a guy can blow up lakhs on a motorcycle we (govt) are justified in looting them. I want my pound of flesh". And until we have Mr.Lungi as the FM expect no rationalization on that front.

[sreerama]

I feel samyakmodi is right. In india roads are not as lengthy as other countries & even the cost of fuel for superbikes would be high for india.

So only a few would be buying it & how can they setup manufacturing here for very few buyers?

& the low end torque would be low for superbikes & how can u ride it peacefully in the crowded city?

[given2fly]

please close this thread soon. lots of discussion and no real news (no offence to manson and veyron1).

[manson]

Originally Posted by NitinGirish

Until I came across this thread. And posting in this thread is the only reason why I bothered registering here at all.

So, we atleast got a lurker to signup and post.

Originally Posted by NitinGirish

I did not understand how having peak duties of upto 300% can "protect" the splendours/victors/passions and the so called performance bikes like Pulsars/Karizmas/etc.

Peak duties of 300%? Now that is certainly something new to me, care to throw some light?
If you are not updated, the two wheeler scene in India has just started to get if i could say *exciting* with the launch of thr R15, and the soon to be expected *modern* motorcycles from our domestic manafacturers. Gradually this will develop and the cubic capacities and cylinders may increase, this is exactly the market that would need protection.

Originally Posted by NitinGirish

And do people who advocate for protectionism realize how ancient they sound?
The "economic growth" that lot of people are seemingly holding on to their dear life, has come about by something called as globalization. But then, if you are a Rip Van Winkle you would not know.

Keeping India in mind, I see the automobile sector has been a major contributor in economic growth. This most certainly could not have come if we were allowed to import at a no so high import tariff.
You would have never had global major setting up manafacturing facilties in India in the first place if they were no offered protection against imports. GM, Toyota, Ford, Honda, Hyundai, etc are here only because they are protected.

Originally Posted by NitinGirish

If the Escorts, Bajajs where protected during eighties, we would not have RXs, Shoguns at all.

You may just want to compare the economic growth of our country between the eighties and the last decade.

Originally Posted by NitinGirish

Fact of the matter is, there is nothing sacrosanct about nationalism in business. If Bajaj or TVS canot give us superbikes then somebody else will. We do not become patriots by protecting few business families.

I am not rooting for any of the domestic players to give us a liter class, heck even a four cylinder 600 anytime soon. But, I would ideally want the four Japanese majors to setup manafacturing facilities in India to bring down costs and export the surplus.

Originally Posted by NitinGirish

The only sensible point to come out of this thread is why dont the international majors set up manufacturing facilities here. One straighforward answer is the volumes here will be very low and would not justify such investments. BUt that still leaves the "exports" question unanswered. However, there is nothing sacrosanct about having their manufacturing facilities here either. Do you think there will be 1lakh R1's produced/year? And with the limited production how many people will get employment, which apparantely is the moral justification for having them here.

I do not advocate that the immediate costs in the first year would be anywhere near what their global costing lies, but even at a 20-25% higher costing you will most definitely find some good sales volumes. Most big bike enthusiast settle for a 5-7 year old liter class for 5-5.5L, don't you think they would rather prefer a brand new bike instead?
Gradually the costing should eventually come down, and domestic produce mau just be viable enough to export.
I am sure the chaps hiogh up there could forecast some number for themselves and draw out a clean production plan.

manson.

Peak duties of 300%? Now that is certainly something new to me, care to throw some light?

Yes, when I get time, I will google it for you. All kinds of taxes, while importing I mean here.

If you are not updated, the two wheeler scene in India has just started to get if i could say *exciting* with the launch of thr R15, and the soon to be expected *modern* motorcycles from our domestic manafacturers.

I am very much updated Sir. R15 & FZ16 arent exactly superbikes are they?

Gradually this will develop and the cubic capacities and cylinders may increase, this is exactly the market that would need protection.

Why? why should I wait till Bajaj, TVS, HMSI, Yamaha India, etc do this? Why should I care if the Ninja 250 I ride is sold to me by Kawasaki or Bajaj? As a consumer, I dont give a damn whether it is imported or locally manufactured. I would look at more, what some would say mundane and what I would term as relevant parameters like value-for-money, reliability, etc.


Keeping India in mind, I see the automobile sector has been a major contributor in economic growth. This most certainly could not have come if we were allowed to import at a no so high import tariff.
You would have never had global major setting up manafacturing facilties in India in the first place if they were no offered protection against imports. GM, Toyota, Ford, Honda, Hyundai, etc are here only because they are protected.

Global majors didnt set shop here because they were offered 'protection'. They did so because they sensed they had a market here which they could serve profitably.



You may just want to compare the economic growth of our country between the eighties and the last decade.

And you are telling me that 90s economic growth happened because of 'protection'?



I am not rooting for any of the domestic players to give us a liter class, heck even a four cylinder 600 anytime soon. But, I would ideally want the four Japanese majors to setup manafacturing facilities in India to bring down costs and export the surplus.

Couldnt care less for their plants. As I have already said, it is not a HMT or BHEL which would give employement to thousands of blue collar workers.


All I can say is, in today nobody would advocate 'protectionism' in business. Yes, it is a different thing that it is resorted to buy even the so-called developed nations. But to tell that restricting imports to arm-twist global majors to set up shop here, which in turn would have any meaningful impact on the economy is taking things a bit too far.

[given2fly]

@nitingirish,

Buddy, please tone down your language. It is certainly not the kind of language A well respected senior deserves to be answered with and is not appreciated.