[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

So when we say tuners don't have the capability/tools this is probably true. But for what tuners like to do, does it really matter?

If same engine and hardware is used in different variants, even the tuner can extract more power safely. It's just that the manufacturer can do the calibration very easily whereas the tuner have to tweak individual maps. I don't remember the car exactly, there was this Van from VW which had power jump from 84 hp to 150 hp just with remap

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

If same engine and hardware is used in different variants, even the tuner can extract more power safely. It's just that the manufacturer can do the calibration very easily whereas the tuner have to tweak individual maps. I don't remember the car exactly, there was this Van from VW which had power jump from 84 hp to 150 hp just with remap

My biggest issues with tuners is what they will do to your engine long term. Because they simply cant predict. Just by extracting so much power out of an engine doesn't necessarily mean the engine will not suffer in terms of additional wear and tear. And to the earlier discussion, seemingly similar engine do require different parts at high output power.

So you really need to ensure your tuner has a good understanding of this. In addition here in the west you need to make sure your car meets the very stringent emission rules.

And of course, if you ever show up with your remapped engine at a mainstream dealer to get something fixed, even a light bulb, they wont untill you pay them first to restore everything to factory settings. (Here is where the variant coding comes in handy for them. Hook it up to the machine and presto!

Jeroen

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

And of course, if you ever show up with your remapped engine at a mainstream dealer to get something fixed, even a light bulb, they wont untill you pay them first to restore everything to factory settings. (Here is where the variant coding comes in handy for them. Hook it up to the machine and presto!

I think you are confused between variant coding and software update (flashing). Do you know the difference between the two?

Spike

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

I think you are confused between variant coding and software update (flashing). Do you know the difference between the two?



Spike

You are confusing me, because in my mind a software update is not necessarily flashing and a remap is not a software update either, but it could be done with flashing. But it could be down to semantics/definition.

Just the definition of what a software update is, can be widely confusing. Let alone the difference between a software update and a upgrade, function change or parameter setting. (I ve done a bit of software coding projects, pricing and selling in a few different industries, but not the car industry).

But to try and avoid semantics and or definition issues: if you get your cars performance adjusted outside the authorized dealer channel, you will have a problem when you do visit an authorized dealer. First thing they will do is hook up your car to their electronic magic box that checks every piece of software, settings and parameters against the factory settings. Anything amiss and you will have to pay them to get it back to original settings or they simply wont work on your car. They wouldn't even top up the window wiper fluid.

Jeroen

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

You are confusing me,

No, I am trying to clear your confusion.

because in my mind a software update is not necessarily flashing

If it is a software update at the dealership, it IS flashing

and a remap is not a software update either

Not necessarily.

, but it could be done with flashing.

True.

My question was: how are variant coding and software update / flashing different at the dealer? Taking your example, someone changes some maps in the car somehow, and then goes to the dealer for some other repair. What will happen if a variant coding approach is taken / flashing (setting to factory recommendations) is done?

Spike

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

But to try and avoid semantics and or definition issues: if you get your cars performance adjusted outside the authorized dealer channel, you will have a problem when you do visit an authorized dealer. First thing they will do is hook up your car to their electronic magic box that checks every piece of software, settings and parameters against the factory settings. Anything amiss and you will have to pay them to get it back to original settings or they simply wont work on your car. They wouldn't even top up the window wiper fluid.

Jeroen

First of all get out of the typical software industry coding world sir , to understand remap or ecu programming.

The electronic magic box that you are glorifying is nothing but a simple OBD2 ecu scanner. It does not check every bit of software. It does not have winols or something similar that can extract your current map and check what parameters have been changes , rather which line in the maps have been changed.

Ecu scanner measures the parameters like fuel, boost, data from all the sensors - thats it.

Sincere apologies if my reply is too offensive.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

First of all get out of the typical software industry coding world sir , to understand remap or ecu programming.

The electronic magic box that you are glorifying is nothing but a simple OBD2 ecu scanner. It does not check every bit of software. It does not have winols or something similar that can extract your current map and check what parameters have been changes , rather which line in the maps have been changed.

Ecu scanner measures the parameters like fuel, boost, data from all the sensors - thats it.

Sincere apologies if my reply is too offensive.

I don’t take offence very easily, so not to worry

I’m very familiar with OBD scanners. Currently I own three of them and I know how to use them.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/diy-do...ml#post4178616

But I’m not so sure you are familiar with the current set up at mainstream dealers. I can’t speak for India, but in most of Europe the USA the electronic magic box is very different from an OBD scanner.

A typical set up of the electronic magic box at the dealer:



Say your car needs a new ECU or TCM or an update. In essence the ECU or TCM is one and the same box that is used on multiple version of this car. In practice even the ECU/TCM could come in a few variants So that’s where this setup comes in, which by the way uses variant coding. Variant coding is a clever way of keeping track (and allowing for chances) of all the relevant variants on a car and it’s components. That includes tyre size down to engine performance and anything in between. I understand that (some?) manufacturers consider the variant coding itself a manufacturing component and hence treat and use it as one.

I am by no means an expert on variant coding, but I have a few booklets om how it is used by various manufacturers. If you are interested in literature, check out Ebay regularly.


Jeroen

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Ecu scanner measures the parameters like fuel, boost, data from all the sensors - thats it.

The dealer can log all these values and can only suspect if the car has been remapped. Also I have read that the scan tools by few manufacturers can even read the flash counter. Even here, remap can be suspected. All OBD flash remaps increment the flash number.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

A typical set up of the electronic magic box at the dealer:

Attachment 1689225

Just adding the full content from which particular pic was quoted above...
ECU_Variant_Coding_System.pdf


I bought it from google on the way to ebay.

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

But, what about other tuners?

You mean international national players?

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

But I’m not so sure you are familiar with the current set up at mainstream dealers. I can’t speak for India, but in most of Europe the USA the electronic magic box is very different from an OBD scanner.

Say your car needs a new ECU or TCM or an update. In essence the ECU or TCM is one and the same box that is used on multiple version of this car. In practice even the ECU/TCM could come in a few variants So that’s where this setup comes in, which by the way uses variant coding. Variant coding is a clever way of keeping track (and allowing for chances) of all the relevant variants on a car and it’s components. That includes tyre size down to engine performance and anything in between. I understand that (some?) manufacturers consider the variant coding itself a manufacturing component and hence treat and use it as one.

I am by no means an expert on variant coding, but I have a few booklets om how it is used by various manufacturers. If you are interested in literature, check out Ebay regularly.


Jeroen

Ooh, i am totally referring to Indian car scene , car dealers in india just hook ecu scanner , that too when there is a problem with the car.

I am aware of the set up you mentioned here too. This is common in Europe.

Coming to the variant coding, i have done that and been there. My car runs a variant coding through which we can select 5 different maps using a switch(accl pedal) and indicator of the map selected (tacho/temp). But when it comes to mainstream tuners the good ones change the maps to the core, be it a smoke map, or the torque map or the fuel maps or boost maps. On my another car i dont have switchable maps and with whatever i have the dealer cannot detect whats done on my car. I have not had any warranty issues too.

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

The dealer can log all these values and can only suspect if the car has been remapped. Also I have read that the scan tools by few manufacturers can even read the flash counter. Even here, remap can be suspected. All OBD flash remaps increment the flash number.

Flash counter can be hidden while doing the remap. For example if you flash the ecu on MJD the flash count increments. But wolf has a clever way that the increment is never done and it always shows 0.

On my storme too the ecu flash details show as stock, no increment whatsoever.

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Flash counter can be hidden while doing the remap. For example if you flash the ecu on MJD the flash count increments. But wolf has a clever way that the increment is never done and it always shows 0.

Rajiv is an exception . He knows in and out of that Marelli ECU. Since he has cracked the codes, should be easy for him. But, what about other tuners?

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

Rajiv is an exception . He knows in and out of that Marelli ECU. Since he has cracked the codes, should be easy for him. But, what about other tuners?

I dont think its a big deal to hide the no of flash counts. A competent tuner should be able to do it.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Sankar

I bought it from google on the way to ebay.
:

I hate to tell you, but this one is downloadable for free from the internet:

http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/misc/E...ing_System.pdf

My wife and me have just bought a new home and last weekend I started packing up my office. So all my books are in boxes at the moment so i could not get a the few booklets I have. But the internet provided a few piccies as usual.

Our new house will have a 70m2 garage for me and my cars. So I have a long list of new tools, including several electronic boxes, that I want to get!

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Ooh, i am totally referring to Indian car scene , car dealers in india just hook ecu scanner , that too when there is a problem with the car.
.

Is it only the ECU, because in the set up I'm familiar with all computers get hooked up. How do they deal with a problem in the TCM, BCM etc.

Also, important to note this system at the dealer is hooked up to the manufacturers "back end system". That's where they keep track of the variants, changes, adoptions, updates etc. Is the dealer's scanner hooked up to the manufacturer's databases. Or does it just work (read/write) stand alone?

Jeroen

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I hate to tell you, but this one is downloadable for free from the internet:

http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/misc/E...ing_System.pdf

<snip>

Oh yes i know. I knew from which document that part you posted was as soon as i saw it. We all have some books packed in boxes.

[Dr.Naren]

A new ECU tuning tool is getting very famous. It's called Auto Tuner. This tool has the fastest read and write. This is the only tool which can do New Endeavour 3.2 fully by OBD. Another big advantage is life time free updates. The tool is very well priced too at 4900 Euros (both OBD and bench in one tool) for master version.

https://www.autotuner-tool.com/en