[scorpian]

Originally Posted by rakesh_r

Will a 2011 Alto and a 2014 Alto K10 survive the E20 fuel?

Rubber components will be heavily affected leading to failures specially pipes etc.

[achats]

Found this Minnesota study on the web - cant figure out the date of publishing but it must be recent enough. As per what I understand from the study, there is no show-stopping impact on rubber/plastic parts due to E20 exposure. So maybe we are overthinking this - I am sure there is an impact with parts like hoses/tubes having to be replaced in say 5 years instead of the usual 8 - but nothing to be all panicky about.

https://d35t1syewk4d42.cloudfront.ne...ve_summary.pdf

[whitewing]

Today's news letter from TheKen
https://the-ken.com/greenmargins/e20...-petrol-bunks/

Key takeaways
- ethanol is hygroscopic in nature. Whenever it finds water around it, as droplets in underground tanks at petrol bunks or inside the vehicle’s fuel tanks or even as humidity in the atmosphere, it absorbs that water. And at a certain critical point, water separates from petrol.
There are more reports of two wheelers facing this issue

- In older cars, the serviceability of the fuel pump—which pumps the fuel into the engine at high pressure—will get affected over time at higher ethanol levels and hence will need to be replaced

- Every litre of ethanol needs 2,860 litres of water. link

[Lux_Noob]

Another global study suggests that current vehicles can withstand E20 (see link below). Not sure what stops auto manufacturers to confirm the same. I have tried to reach out to Audi directly (been wanting to buy the Q3) and via dealers but no concrete reply besides sharing the user manual which has a confusing statement that "do not use high ethanol content like E30 and above" - which seems to imply E20 should be fine but then the more precise comment is - you can use E10 fuel for the car (also mentioned in the fuel flap).

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy22osti/81252.pdf

[Lux_Noob]

Finally, some research on E20 petrol impact from Indian automotive journalists. Per this report from auto car India (link below), the BS6 engines can handle higher ethanol blends up to E27.5 as the ECM can calibrate the fuel-air intake ratios to burn the fuel properly. I guess that is why the BMW cars display compatibility up to E25 (rounding off 27.5 lower). When I had asked Audi folks during my Q3 purchase discussions, they had said that the car can handle E20 (manual says “you can use E10”, “don’t use E30 and above”, seems like a hint) but they can’t officially stamp it for multiple reasons. (I was fairly new to this topic then and wasn’t ready to believe them at that point though). In the meantime, I have read about numerous other global studies which show minimal to no impact (including metal, plastic parts etc.) from E20 (and these studies are somewhat dated, like 2013, so newer cars should be even more tolerant given they were officially E10 compliant). There is an extensive study done by University of Minnesota (posted in this thread earlier by another member) which is the most exhaustive one (they tested vehicles for ~ a year). Even if the plastic/metallic parts require a change, it doesn’t seem to cost a bomb given the price of the latest E20 complaint versions of existing vehicles doesn’t seem to be significantly higher. Warranty becoming void can be an issue if E20 goes into the car, but given that E10 is going to be available till the next 5 years, most of the current warranty packs would not last beyond then anyway.

https://www.autocarindia.com/auto-fe...plained-427790

[Sumedik]

Originally Posted by Lux_Noob

Finally, some research on E20 petrol impact from Indian automotive journalists. Per this report from auto car India (link below), the BS6 engines can handle higher ethanol blends up to E27.5 as the ECM can calibrate the fuel-air intake ratios to burn the fuel properly.

This is very useful information from used car market perspective, since all new cars sold 1st April 2023 onwards will be E20 compatible anyway.

But the golden questions remain:

1. How long will E10 petrol be available?
2. Are BS4 cars E20 material compatible? (Except Honda, who have confirmed that their cars since 2009 are E20 material compatible)

[manoj.elan]

Bringing back this thread alive.

If ethanol is cheaper than petrol, why is E20 petrol being sold at same price as standard petrol (E10) ? This looks like more fleecing than benefitting public.

I feel the financial benefit of E20 mixture should be passed to end users.

[Mortis]

Originally Posted by manoj.elan

Bringing back this thread alive.

If ethanol is cheaper than petrol, why is E20 petrol being sold at same price as standard petrol (E10) ? This looks like more fleecing than benefitting public.

I feel the financial benefit of E20 mixture should be passed to end users.

Because allegedly petrol prices are still being subsidised and shortfall from covid needs to be made up and some oil bonds from the time of the previous govt still need to be paid off even though apparently they already have been several years ago and funds are needed for development and sugarcane factories are owned by politicians and so on and so forth.

[2wheelsvaga]

Hi all. I am looking for some clarifications about the upcoming E-20 fuel compliance. Why exactly is it supposed to be not good for the life of the engine?
Isn't that bad for the environment, given long-term repairs of the engines being used?
If I have an E-20 compliant engine, will it only run on a mix of ethanol and petrol? What if I used 100% petrol to power the engine? Is it legally allowed?
Is there a way in which one could still buy pre E-20 compliant engines? I am mostly thining of RE and Honda bikes.
Thanks!

[rishi.roger]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

Hi all. I am looking for some clarifications about the upcoming E-20 fuel compliance. Why exactly is it supposed to be not good for the life of the engine?
Isn't that bad for the environment, given long-term repairs of the engines being used?
If I have an E-20 compliant engine, will it only run on a mix of ethanol and petrol? What if I used 100% petrol to power the engine? Is it legally allowed?
Is there a way in which one could still buy pre E-20 compliant engines? I am mostly thining of RE and Honda bikes.
Thanks!

An ICE motor vehicle that is E20 compliant simply means in layman terms that its engine and parts that involve combustion have been coated with special materials that prevents corrosion that generally happens because of presence of ethanol.
So using regular petrol (E10) should be alright in a e20 engine. Using e20 petrol in an e10 or lower engine would in theory cause increased corrosion for which the engine didn't have tolerance for when designed.

E20 fuel in my understanding should be better for environment wrt air pollution and also the engine will have less carbon desposit comparative to a lesser ethanol blend, so over a period of time an e20 engine will have lesser decrease in performance (minimal I suppose), given that you use E20 blend fuel.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by rishi.roger

An ICE motor vehicle that is E20 compliant simply means in layman terms that its engine and parts that involve combustion have been coated with special materials that prevents corrosion that generally happens because of presence of ethanol.
So using regular petrol (E10) should be alright in a e20 engine. Using e20 petrol in an e10 or lower engine would in theory cause increased corrosion for which the engine didn't have tolerance for when designed.

E20 fuel in my understanding should be better for environment wrt air pollution and also the engine will have less carbon desposit comparative to a lesser ethanol blend, so over a period of time an e20 engine will have lesser decrease in performance (minimal I suppose), given that you use E20 blend fuel.

Oh, I see. That means I should be fine getting one of the newer bikes, and it looks like the older engines are in for a hard time. I would be surprised if there are numerous engines which get filled up with E20 fuel by chance. So many times has one heard of something similar happening to diesel and petrol cars.

But, what about the fact that the newer engines that run on E20 will have reduced engine life expectancy and will also have a lower BHP?

[Fastdriver]

Originally Posted by manoj.elan

Bringing back this thread alive.

If ethanol is cheaper than petrol, why is E20 petrol being sold at same price as standard petrol (E10) ? This looks like more fleecing than benefitting public.

I feel the financial benefit of E20 mixture should be passed to end users.

Yes the powers that be are fleecing the public with E10 petrol as well. They are least bothered to the engine problems that this type of fuel may cause to the older cars by not showing any prominent warning in the petrol filling stations. The car owners need to be well informed which is not the case right now. Also they are importing Russian crude oil at a much cheaper rate without benefiting the Indian public. Only beneficiaries are the owners of one well known refinery and another lesser known company. The refined products are mainly sold in Europe.Correct me if I am wrong. And it is done in the name of development of the country/nation building! Transparency is the very essence of democracy.

[condor]

Not sure if this has been posted before, but looks like a business opportunity for some component manufacturers if they can start producing E20 compatible parts for existing cars also, albeit at a small markup. This will help owners of existing cars to extend the life of their cars to at least some extent.

In quite a few cases like Maruti cars where they pretty much use the same setup across cars and model years, this will be easier to do. The raw materials will require an update, though.

[Sumedik]

Originally Posted by condor

Not sure if this has been posted before, but looks like a business opportunity for some component manufacturers if they can start producing E20 compatible parts for existing cars also

Absolutely agreed. It is impossible that the changes that need to be made would be impossible. Example: K15B engine by Maruti was E10 compliant previously and now E20 compliant and I do not think they are using any different alloy to make the engine block.

The tough part would be making an inventory of parts (mostly plastic and rubber) that needs to be changed in a car WITHOUT any input from the manufacturer.

[shankar.balan]

I have bought a little of this ‘special medicated juice ’ and intend pouring it into my Tank, at least for my Cooper, which has a high compression engine. Let us see if additives like this help us to preserve our beautiful cars.