[uditsharma01]

Well, well, well! Guess who's gonna benefit from all this ethanol mayhem. Definitely Govt and its nexus.

First of all, ethanol has a low energy density. This means you have to burn more fuel to get farther than the usual petrol. Consequently, it will take a toll on the average. Resulting in more trips to the fuel pump. With skyrocketing prices of fuel, it will be icing on the cake for govt.

Secondly, there could definitely be some vested interest as mentioned by other members. Ethanol is a sugarcane product. So this nexus can be fostered with the E20 knocking in.

Wouldn't be wrong to say this is a very ill-structured policy that has fascinated the enthusiasts' attention.

[sriviswa]

With the uncertainty around the ill-effects of E20 petrol, and the issues with city only usage of bs6 diesel engines, would it be prudent to buy an used bs4 diesel (or older) car for a daily use of around 70km in city, especially if the budget is limited (6 to 7 lakhs max)

[CEF_Beasts]

BMW’s owner manual mentions fuel with upto 25% Ethanol content can be used.

[arpanjha]

The more I read about Ethanol blend % being increased, more I worry, since many Indians residing in cities have their vehicles parked outside, in open areas. However well protected we keep the vehicles, moisture is bound to get inside tanks when exposed to rain for long hours.

[Gotcha]

Ever changing policies and uncertainty:

https://www.thehindu.com/business/Ec...le37103252.ece
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/87194017.cms

I had booked a MG Astor yesterday but this news about flex fuels is making me feel jittery about going ahead with it. Should I cancel buying a petrol car now and instead wait to buy an EV after a year?

[Poitive]

Some thoughts on the issue:

1. Is there much reason to believe that E10 compatable vehicles won't be taken care of and be left in the lurch?

2a. Could this not be a step towards a graded change - one of many in the industry?

2b. It might just be a case of gradually shaping the market by changing pricing over time E10 vs E20. Diesel vs Petrol price changes in the past decade is an example.

3. As many things (BS2, BS4 etc) E10 too might eventually get obsolete (out of regular use). Of course, a vehicle on a relatively old standard might fetch lesser resale value eventually. Is the fear about usable life of the vehicle or of resale value?

4. Though there may possibly be nefarious interests at play, it is also possible that savings in fuel imports might have geopolitical implications, which an average person (without access to the data and reasons) might not be able to comprehend or appreciate.

[donabrh]

A driving incident. Could it be the corrosive effect of ethanol blended petrol on fuel line rubber components?

Sharing an incident which happened a week back. Took my car (Estilo 2010, K series, 3 cylinder) out for some work. As a habit whenever I start a parked vehicle, I roll down the windows and leave them open for sometime. I do it 1) to circulate fresh air 2) let out trapped mosquitoes 3) most important, to notice any new and peculiar sounds other than the usual noises emitted during the functioning of a vehicle.

Noticed a hissing sound, somewhat like air leaking from a hose and in about 50 meters could smell petrol fumes. Stopped and looked underneath the vehicle, saw petrol dripping right after the fuel filter near the fuel tank and the fuel tank and under body was all wet. I could figure out either the fuel filter was leaking or the rubber hose connecting the fuel filter to the metal fuel line leading to the engine is damaged / disconnected.

Drove down to the Maruti authorized workshop 5 KMs away which I frequent for vehicle maintenance. At the time I started towards the workshop the fuel gauge indicated 2 bars of fuel which I was sure would reduce quickly. As expected within 2 odd KMs the fuel gauge indicated 1 bar and soon it started blinking and the vehicle started stalling. Drove in to a fuel pump filled in 5 litres and then took the vehicle to the workshop which was nearby.

Without looking under the vehicle the workshop owner mentioned it seems to be the rubber hose, post diagnosis he confirmed the rubber hose had a rupture the size of a pencil tip and replaced the same. Total cost Rs. 300 (Rs. 100 for the hose and Rs. 200 labour). The rupture did not look like a rat bite damage. It was a puncture perfect round in shape.

The unusual element:
At the outset it seems to be a usual maintenance related issue, but the unusual and surprise element is this fact mentioned by the workshop owner,'that they have had around 60 odd similar cases in the last 2 months'. Rubber hoses used in the fuel delivery system develop a rupture. The workshop also mentioned the incidence has been noted in cars manufactured around 2012-13 and prior.

What could have gone wrong?
1) The hose turned brittle over a period of time. My understanding is these components are manufactured to last and withstand exposure to elements. Unless there is a quality issue with a batch.
2) Reaction to the ethanol mixed in the fuel. Could be considered as a reason due to the known corrosive nature of ethanol and considering the number of occurrences.

Learning's from my experience:
1) If fuel gauge suddenly drops check under the body near the fuel tank, fuel filter, fuel line components, rubber hoses for leakages.
2) There is a huge risk of the vehicle catching fire, avoid driving with fuel leaking. Ideally I should have got the vehicle towed, blunder on my part. Towing cost is minuscule compared to vehicle damage and loss of life due to fire. Advice to anyone experiencing something similar is to get the vehicle towed.
3) Attempt to patch the ruptured hose may not work as the pressure generated by the fuel pump is way to high for any temporary adhesive tapes to withstand. Also the fuel would weaken the adhesive quickly. If you are stranded in a deserted spot you may attempt a patch up.

Questions from my experience:
1) Has anyone else in the forum experienced something similar, vehicle make, manufacturer, vintage?
2) Could the reason be something else?

Observations from my experience:
1) My understanding (correct me if I am wrong) is that in the US and Europe fuel pumps dispense vintage compatible E5, E10, E15 blended petrol. Vehicle owners get to choose the fuel suitable as per their vehicle vintage. In India it may not be possible (while nothing is said to be impossible) for Oil companies and Petrol bunks to manage the infrastructure to dispense different blend percentage and cost associated would be prohibitive. As a user all I could do is preventive maintenance and upgrade the rubber components, challenge being components available for my vehicle are not updated to be compatible with the blended fuel.
2) Collective fuel loss across vehicles facing such an issue will never be documented or recorded but is seemingly humongous. That afternoon by the time I reached the workshop, lost close to 10 litres of petrol, 5 before refueling and 5 after. That’s Rs. 1,050 X 60 incidence in that workshop X similar incidence across the country.
3) Losses with a greater impact and which would never be estimated / recorded are the financial loss if the vehicle catches fire and emotional and financial impact to families in the event a life is lost in the vehicle fire.

Thanking all in advance for observations and recommendations.

[subbarp]

Hi,

I had 2 questions:

1. Someone mentioned about some brands being E25 compliant already (as per the user manual excerpts). This then becomes an important factor in car selection. However, this information is not easily available at the time of purchase but only on user manuals. Would it be possible to compile this information across cars on sale ?

One of the newspaper threads mentioned that only E20 fuel would be on sale post 2025. I would be uncomfortable with buying an E10 car now.

This possibly becomes an important criteria but is not discussed enough while assessing a car. Is this not a critical factor. This could affect a). Reliability b). power c). mileage d). resale and in my view becomes an important factor in car selection.


2. The thread talks of blending for Petrol. Is there any similar plan for Diesel blending and what are the implications ?


thanks.

[subbarp]

Some other questions that occurred to me after a few more days ( Mods, please merge this post and previous one if required for readability ).


3. What happens as ratio of Ethanol in the dispensed fuel is raised as we move forward. We do not know if the switch to E10/ E20 would be a 1 time switch or instead a rolling one.

If we have a rolling blend, what happens to Vehicle Warranty as we cross 10% blending?


4. Are we hoping E10 would be retailed beyond 2025 (Assuming that I may want to keep a newly purchased vehicle for 10 years)?

In such a scenario, are we buying any E10 certified vehicle and be uncertain about a lot of fundamental factors beyond 3-5 years ?


5. What is the role of manufacturers towards vehicles that are E10 compliant and require to use E20 fuel. Do we know if part upgrades are required, feasible and if so, which parts and how much would it cost. Alternately can manufacturers provide a longer warranty on all vehicle parts relating to fuel line including the engine?

6. Fuel efficiency is dependent on fuel type (as in the blend ratio). We do state the city/ highway mix while discussing fuel efficiency but not the specific fuel blend.
In such a case, what we observe today, need not be the fuel efficiency we observe 6-12-24 months down the line. How much of a difference would the blend make to the mileage ?


This would help prospective owners.


Thanks.

[AnandB]

I am not at all knowledgeable about this topic but i do follow Engineering Explained and he made a video about why using Ethanol is not actually how its marketed to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-yDKeya4SU

One of the top comments says

I'm glad you are shedding light on this again. Actually, these facts were known decades ago. Lobbies and special interests are a powerful thing.

[KuvamBansal]

Zac Hollis has replied to a query on twitter stating that all Skoda cars, both existing and future, will be made to comply with the new fuel norms.

[fhdowntheline]

Bumping up this thread again. I am in the process of deciding for a second city beater car. I have hatchbacks like the SPresso, WagonR, Ignis and Nios 1.2 in mind. But I am just doing a strong think on this whole E20 proposition- whether it may be worthwhile trying out a used car as a beater city car for a few years until this E10/20 fuel issue is taken care of and/or other alternatives emerge in the hybrid space. My problem with 2nd hand cars is that I do not see too many cars with ABS and dual airbags. Most of the reliable Maruti cars are from the pre-2017 vintage when these were not mandatory. And the ones that do have them, approach within 1.5 lac Rs. price point of an equivalent new car. Any thoughts/ ideas would be welcome.

[condor]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

. I am in the process of deciding for a second city beater car. ... But I am just doing a strong think on this whole E20 proposition- whether it may be worthwhile trying out a used car as a beater city car for a few years until this E10/20 fuel issue is taken care .

Yes, a used car for both - usage (beater) and the reason you stated. Switch to ethanol based fuel can not be overnight. Regular petrol will continue to be there for a few more years, though there may be a small premium later on. So you can start with a good (segment/feature wise upgrade too) used car for this, and later when things are clear and the engines ready for the fuel, you can get a new car.

[condor]

Which part of an engine would suffer most due to the ethanol content ?

[NJ_9]

Originally Posted by condor

Which part of an engine would suffer most due to the ethanol content ?

All the rubber and plastic components. It would gradually deteriorate.

Anybody from the OIL industry can confirm if this planned implementation is achievable? Does not look like a easy task reading all the variables involved in achieving this.