[DKG]

Originally Posted by wasif

But that is how a restored car will look DKG ...you are aware of this and I am sure its as close to what it looked new as it ever will get.

If you like the look of that Duesenberg its been restored on a need basis. I feel they have managed to retain its aging perfectly. This is what I would have desired for the RR

[wasif]

Originally Posted by DKG

If you like the look of that Duesenberg its been restored on a need basis. I feel they have managed to retain its aging perfectly. This is what I would have desired for the RR

Well whats done is done you can't change that so now if you can do smoeting to see it remains in this shape for a long tiem to come it will be great

Its the quality of what you start work with that matters, if there is someting that can be saved it should have been.

Maybe you cna PM me what you think should have been save so I can understand what you are saying here better

[DKG]

Originally Posted by wasif

Well whats done is done you can't change that

Its the most appropriate way to summarise and close this discussion

[harit]

Originally Posted by Bulldogji

This time around even i felt that the bombay show was better in every way.Having said this I must mention one thing that was common to both shows.The salesmanship .The poor judges, perhaps being used to honesty were told tales which were,well just tales.And that helped influence decisions.But at least I can say that most of us had a lovely time meeting old friends and relaxing.Of course we were amused at the way the tense salesmen were desperately trying to sell their wares.All in all great fun and hats of to Manvinder for the effort put in.

Originally Posted by Bulldogji

Harit,I always stand by what I say, and I retierate,some of the cars had no business to be there but end of the day we or at least some of us had fun.I thank the curator because he treated us with respect and dignity.The foriegners , well less said the better.They had agendas we were not privy to and behaved in an obnoxious manner, noticed by many car owners.There were many thoughts expressed on whether some would participate in future cartier events,not because of Manvinder who remained stern but helpful ,BUT due to the attitude of the whites.

Since you are so determined to praise the Curator, well go ahead. First there is praise for the effort put in to have fun, meeting old friends and relaxing. Then there is praise for respect and dignified treatment.
This sounds a bit, well corny, because the main purpose of holding a grand and serious show for vintage and classic car enthusiasts failed miserably. Salesmanship will always be there, that is why one should prepare a dosier with history, restoration steps undergone, past participation in events to impress judges about the exhibit. And judges should have enough experience to filter out the "stories". In the 2008 event, I went in with about 10 friends, met many more, but there was so much to do in meeting and talking to judges, visitors, other collectors, seeing all the cars, that I never had time to chat and catch up with friends, or have food and refreshments. This time apparently the show was so lacking that you had all the time in the world for all this. Whenever I am in Delhi I always catch up with fellow enthusiasts and have so much more fun and good time, all without the help of a curator

I am not aware about the details on "disrespect from whites", maybe you could enlighten us on to what had happened. In the first event there was a bearded royal guest who did tend towards quite a bit of stiff lip, he was present in the subsequent Bentley run fiasco and we all know what happened there. It was mentioned that one judge was not happy about being questioned on the Resurrection prize because the Mercedes which won was a running car 15 to 20 years ago. It was never a complete wreck. For this you can only blame the Curator, it is his job to select an appropriate number of entries to compete for a certain prize. To my knowledge there was no car which was brought up from a low level of rusty bits to a highly pleasing exhibit, maybe only the Morgan could have been a suitable contender .

In in the last event, there was so much work for the judges, they never expected that they would have to spend so much time with the cars and do so much work. This time they must have finished very quickly and had time to be arrogant, maybe because of annoyance at being asked to waste time on so many unsuitable cars which should not at all have been there in the first place. There were many thought expressed by participants on future participation because of the lousy line-up of cars than for arrogance.

Originally Posted by DKG

I hope Manvindra Singh reads this feedback and takes up the issue with Cartier. Its sad to read this. Quite obviously as a spectator we weren't exposed to all these issues and I hope by the next event corrective action gets taken !!

As mentioned, we do not know what the issues were, but primarily it is more for the Curator to take corrective action on his own role first. And have properly selected cars participating. And fear not, he has read all this feedback.

I have been talking to more participants and visitors, and have heard some more.
The Daimler has been converted from LHD to RHD
The DeSoto had non matching upholstry.
The Chevy 1959 has had covers fitted over the seats, those are not original.
The Fiat 1100 was made in Italy, not India.

The rule was one prize per car, I understand the Rolls and Daimler got 2 prizes each. In 2008 the Healey Westland deserved 2 prizes, best restored and resurrection, but they gave only one because of this rule.

Noted was the absense of a good crowd like in Mumbai. Those who were present in Mumbai will remember how much genuine royalty was present, they created an aura on their own when they sashayed around the grounds. And there were page 3 visitors too, not that they are important, but they felt they needed to be there.

All participants were asked to pick up their dinner invites and kits from the Hotel. That can be considered an arrogance.

The above I got as feedback, maybe somewhere subject to correction.
From all seen and heard, this event would get a rating of 70 on 100 from me, whereas I felt the first event was worth 500 on 100. So much difference.
Let us see if anyone learns from this, such an event should never be a one man show.

Quick question: Who organises events such as Pebble Beach, Hersheys, Beaulieu? Bet you do not know the answer, because it is always a committee, never an individual.

Cheers harit

[wasif]

Harit.

Those covers on the 59 Chevy are there from new , it was a dealer installed option.

I cam sure you must have seen other cars of this age with these covers too. One of my cousins has a 61 Impala in pretty much the same tmie wrap condition as the 59 shown at Cartier and it too has plastic covers on the seats from new.

[Bulldogji]

Harit, sarcasm will get you nowhere.Having said that, I will refrain from commenting on your darts at me as it serves no purpose.Instead why not work towards organising a show better than Cartiers?You seem to know everything that was wrong so you would be the best person to do it.ON the ressurrection issue, it was apparent to some present that in the minds of the judges ressurection meant restoration.Maybe they needed to have been told the difference between the two words.Anyway I hope you can put up a better show..Maybe even invite me???

[harit]

Originally Posted by Bulldogji

Harit, sarcasm will get you nowhere.Having said that, I will refrain from commenting on your darts at me as it serves no purpose.Instead why not work towards organising a show better than Cartiers?You seem to know everything that was wrong so you would be the best person to do it.ON the ressurrection issue, it was apparent to some present that in the minds of the judges ressurection meant restoration.Maybe they needed to have been told the difference between the two words.Anyway I hope you can put up a better show..Maybe even invite me???

Bulldogji, I do not see any darts being fired at you, by me because I never did. I used your shoulder to fire a dart at The Curator. But it is you who is recognising one fact, and that is when you have a prize for resurrection, the Curator should have seen to it that suitable cars are available for judging. The organisers, Cartier with the Curator, decided on the categories, the judges did not. So the judges mind must have gone by categories laid down by the organisers. So, therefore, it is the Curator who needs to be informed about the true meaning of resurrection so that he could select suitable cars. He probably overlooked this while playing his agenda.
And just who selected these many weird categories?
Jaguar Class: Can understand this as Jaguar were co-sposors
Roadster Class: The showing here was quite poor.
Indian Heritage Class: maybe should include Indian assembled cars. Many cars shown under this class were out of place.
Post-war Classics Class: OK
American runner up
European runner up
Winner
Ressurection Cup: Here there were no entries justified. Maybe as Bulldogji stated, restoration was meant, organisers can clarify at the next opportunity
Ladies Judges Choice: This maybe unscientific looking at the winner, maybe criteria should be more specific, something like Ladies selection. If the ladies actually judged cars, then they have to go by more than just appeal.
Classic Class: OK
Preservation Class: Abolish this or get suitable entries.
Classic Rolls-Royce Class: OK
Car driven on public highway greatest distance: well, ???
Children's Choice: whose children, and what was criteria?
Cartier Best of Show 2011: OK. But was the winner the best?
As you can see, restoration prize is not included.

I did not understand why I should put any show, better or worse. I have not been contracted by Cartier to showcase the best cars in India. One cannot answer criticism by saying that the critic should do better and show. Specially when we are not in the same field. So, if I do not like something in the government, one will not say to me to run it better. Or a restoration, if criticised, the answer is not "so you do it better" when I am not a restorer. Only exception would be if the Bearded man says "you run the club better", then I may accept. But his answer will always be that I am not in the committee, so who am I to question. Similarly, the Curator has not replied to anything, only talks about firing from someone else's shoulder which is wrong insuniation.
And you are always heartily invited for anything I do, I need not ask.

Cheers harit

[Advocatus]

Originally Posted by harit

I did not understand why I should put any show, better or worse. I have not been contracted by Cartier to showcase the best cars in India. One cannot answer criticism by saying that the critic should do better and show.
Cheers harit

There is absolutely nothing wrong with applying the highest standards to things. It would appear to me that you are trying to apply 5 star standards to an event that is clearly nowhere near that standard. Concours are an exact science in my experience and not something you make up as you go along.

There is plenty of intricate detail that would appear to have gone unnoticed, or deemed unimportant. Funny that, because that standard of judging is in fact, what a concours is all about - the very smallest details.

The Cartier event is perhaps a concours more in name, and a car show with prize categories in practice.

The simplest thing seems to be to accept the event for what it is, and if it has delusions of grandeur, to let them co-exist with your views.

That's my opinion. And before anyone attempts to jump down my throat, demand my credentials, etc, I can tell you quite freely that I didn't attend it and my view is based upon the pictures I have seen, the commentary I have read and my own personal experience of more concours events than I care to recall.

[harit]

Here is a report on the Cartier event 2011 from the Classic and Sports Cars magazine.

There are also two links one can view here:

[COLOR=#0000ff]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7SzUj10Eqg[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#0000ff]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37NBrv7gy2A[/COLOR]

Cheers harit