The government is yet to finalize the cut-off dates but commercial vehicles could be the first to make the transition.

To combat air pollution, the government of India is reportedly mulling the complete phase out of petrol and diesel vehicles in Delhi NCR.

According to media reports, the central government is said to be having talks with automobile companies and stakeholder ministries to come up with plans for the national capital region, starting with Delhi, followed by Gurgaon, Gautam Buddh Nagar and Ghaziabad.

While the government is yet to finalize the cut-off dates, reports suggest that new cars and 2-wheelers powered by internal combustion engines could be phased out between 2030 and 2035. Some restrictions could be introduced in this financial year itself, though.

Commercial vehicles could be the first to make the transition, starting with new buses running on cleaner fuels by the end of 2025 and 3-wheeler goods carriers around early 2026 to 2027. It is said that commercial taxis could get more time to switch to cleaner fuels.

The report also states that the government might ban all commercial vehicles complying with BS4 standards and lower from entering Delhi sometime this year.

Source: ET

In 2023-24, roughly 104,058 battery-electric passenger vehicles (BEV) were sold in India. Of those, 3,110 were from the luxury segment and the rest, 1,00,948 from mass-market brands.

BHPian pqr recently shared this with other enthusiasts:

Governments across the world have set agendas to promote EVs as a cleaner alternative. In line with that, the government in India has also come up with several policy initiatives to achieve two major objectives that can be summarized below.

• Primary: Environment sustainability, i.e., reduction in air pollution and lowering greenhouse gas emissions for a cleaner environment
• Secondary: Energy independence, i.e., cutback on imported crude oil to avoid outlay of foreign exchange

Action: 2019 GST reduction

To meet these objectives, the government took a major step in 2019 and lowered the GST rate in India on all electric vehicles.

Due to this reduction in GST, the government has effectively forgone 23% GST on each sub-4 m EV and 40% GST on EVs bigger than 4 m in length to achieve the above-listed objectives.

Can this GST reduction be regarded as a subsidy?

As per the government, such a tax-based incentive may be regarded as an indirect subsidy.

2023-24 EV Sales

In 2023-24, roughly 104,058 battery-electric passenger vehicles (BEV) were sold in India. Of those, 3,110 were from the luxury segment and the rest, 1,00,948 from mass-market brands. Effectively, BEV penetration in FY 2023-24 was 2.4% in the mass market segment and 6.7% in the luxury segment. Thus, luxury BEVs account for only 3% of total BEV sales in India.

This study will now focus on how far the defined objectives for BEV were met in 2023-24. To that end, this study has been separated into three chapters, as shown below.

• Chapter 1: Environment Sustainability
• Chapter 2: Energy Independence
• Chapter 3: Economic growth

Chapter 1: Environment Sustainability

Cars with an internal combustion engine (ICE) burn carbon-based liquid or gaseous fuels like petrol, diesel or CNG. Burning these fuels emits gases like carbon dioxide (CO₂), carbon monoxide (CO), nitrogen-based oxide (NOx), and particulate matter (PM). Different gases have different kinds of effects on human life and the environment.

Some of those harmful emissions like CO, HC, NOx, and PM are limited by government regulation in India under Bharat Stage Emission Compliance Standards.

The latest one is called BS6, which came into effect on the 1st of April 2020, and limits imposed on gases are summarized above.

CAFE is yet another tool deployed by the government to control CO₂ emissions of ICE vehicles.

Electric cars don't emit gases, so the public in general perceives that they don't pollute the environment. But then, in India, electric cars get their energy drawn from grid electricity and on-board batteries store it in chemical form. Indian grid electricity is generated from several sources, and the largest among them is a coal-fired thermal power plant (51%). And therefore, grid electricity has emissions. Because coal-based thermal power plants also emit similar kinds of gases into the atmosphere by burning solid fuel and emitting pollutants above the Indian subcontinent in bulk, similar to what an internal combustion engine (ICE) does on a discrete scale, wherever used across the Indian subcontinent.

So anything that draws electricity from the grid will have an emission footprint over the Indian Subcontinent, whether it’s an electric car or any household appliance. That’s why several appliances do come with energy efficiency ratings in India.

CO₂ emission

First, we will consider CO₂ in this study. Now, CO₂, from gas per se, is not harmful because what we exhale, as humans, is also CO2. That CO₂ is used by vegetation on the planet to convert it back into oxygen through the process of photosynthesis, and the cycle continues.

But then CO₂ is a greenhouse gas. What it means is that it has the ability to trap heat. And if we emit more CO₂ in the environment than what can be converted back into O₂, it will make the earth's atmosphere trap more heat from the sun and make the earth's atmosphere warm.

This leads to an increase in broad-based atmospheric temperature that has multiple consequences. Such as melting of the polar ice cap, change in sea level, submergence of coastal land, erratic change in climate, uncertain rainfall, floods, etc. And all this is mostly termed climate change, a threat to the life of entire mankind on Earth. Thus, governments all over the world and people have a collective responsibility to reduce CO₂ emissions as far as possible.

Indian power grid CO₂ emission

Indian grid electricity has a massive CO₂ footprint. This is quantified by the Central Electricity Authority in every financial year (FY) and can be found in this interesting report. As per the report, 51% of electricity is generated from coal-fired thermal power plants based on installed capacity, in addition to several other sources, including renewable energy.

Average CO₂ emission for 2023–24 can be considered as 0.716 t CO₂ per MWh. However, at night time there won’t be any solar power contribution to grid electricity; overall CO₂ output will be much higher—up to 0.970 t/MWh. This is crucial because several EV users charge their cars at night.

This data can be effectively used to deduce the CO₂ emission footprint for BEVs in India. Crux is what is emitted over the Indian subcontinent and will collectively impact climate change.

Indian BEV CO₂ emission calculation methodology

The first step is to convert higher (t/MWh) units to lower units (g/kWh) for practical usage, as electric car batteries have a kWh rating and CO₂ for ICE cars is expressed as g/Km, and hence an apples-to-apples comparison can be quickly drawn.

The next step is to calculate the CO₂ emission figure for an electric car. Here for illustration, the Tata Nexon EV facelift Long Range version is considered.

MIDC Part I (Modified Indian Driving Cycle) claimed range for Nexon is 465 km, and it has a 40.5 kWh capacity battery pack. Based on the calculation, CO₂ output over the Indian subcontinent when charged from grid electricity would be 62 g/km, provided Nexon delivers 465 km of claimed range in full charge. If the range drops in real-world conditions, actual CO₂ emissions will also go up.

Published EV range : Understanding MIDC vs. WLTC difference

Before we move to CO2 figures of all products sold in 2023–24, it is important to understand the different EV ranges published by respective brands. Here WLTC stands for Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicle Test Cycle.

Cars with an internal combustion engine (ICE) have to undergo emission testing for roadworthiness certification. These tests are carried out in the laboratory (ARAI or ICAT) on dynamometers, where the vehicle's body remains in stationary condition. Vehicles have to cover the modified Indian driving cycle, and equipment measures the tailpipe emissions.

The fuel consumption values are calculated from the hydrocarbon, carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide emission measurements taken in accordance with the provisions of AIS 137 Part-2, clause 6 of Chapter 2, in force at the time of the approval of the vehicle.

Fuel consumption figures derived based on standard formulas during this cycle are reported as fuel efficiency by manufacturers; these figures are byproducts of emission testing procedures.

It is important to note that during MIDC drive, all auxiliary power systems are switched off, i.e., no AC, no headlamp which consumes additional energy. And the average speed is limited to 32.9 kmph. These conditions are now part of standard testing; however, they vary drastically from real-world operating conditions. This is why, in real-world conditions, vehicles either don’t meet these figures or sometimes exceed them too.

When it comes to BEVs, as they don’t have a tailpipe, they don’t have to undergo emission testing. However, they are also subjected to MIDC drive, and the driving range obtained during the test is reported by manufacturers.

In India, for some EVs, there are two different types of drive range published by brands. The cars that are homologated locally bear MIDC range. Cars that are either imported as CBU or CKD assembled locally under GSR 870 having European compliance bear the WLTC range, that doesn’t need homologation in India if it carries a certificate from Europe, and annual units are limited to 2,500 units per financial year for a legal entity.

For illustration: Tata Nexon EV on the left has the MIDC Part I range published in its brochure. On the right, Mercedes EQS has both WLTC and MIDC data, as Mercedes chose to get the EQS 580 4MATIC homologated in India at the ARAI test center. The gap between MIDC and WLTC figures in the case of EQS is as high as 46%. Below is an explanation of such a high gap.

Indian emission standards are purely based on European standards, with a latency in implementation date. That also shows India lacks R&D culture and simply copies European standards without much investment.

But a major difference is in the testing cycle. WLTC became mandatory from 1 September 2018 for measuring CO2 emissions and fuel economy on all new cars in the EU region. India, despite adopting Euro 6 emission standards, is still following the old Modified EUDC testing cycle and only has plans to switch to WLTC by 2027.

Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicle Test Procedure

The New European Drive Cycle (NEDC) has certain limitations as the driving pattern has evolved in several regions. So a new procedure, Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicle Test Procedures (WLTP), has been formalized by UNECE. The WLTP is a global harmonized standard for determining the levels of pollutants, CO2 emissions, and fuel consumption of traditional and hybrid cars and the range of fully electric vehicles.

Major differences in the cycles are demonstrated in the above graph.

This is why a gap exists for products tested on the European WLTP cycle and simultaneously tested in India under MIDC. Here, WLTP is more realistic and close to real-world driving conditions as compared to MIDC.

Since MIDC is not close to realistic real-world driving conditions, the real range of current BEV products is even lower than manufacturers' reported data by 20% to 40% in real-world conditions.

Gap due to the testing procedure is summarized above in terms of grid CO₂.

2023-24 Product-wise grid-based CO₂ emission over the Indian Subcontinent

The below table summarizes the weighted grid-level CO₂ emission of each carline factoring in a mix of different variants sold in FY 2023-24. Also included are estimated GST forgone by the government to incentivize sales of these EVs in India.

• Luxury BEVs with bigger battery packs and performance-oriented motors have a higher CO2 footprint
• Slippery Mercedes EQE SUV & EQS have relatively lower CO₂ footprints compared to BMW, Audi & Porsche
• SUV-styled crossovers have a higher CO₂ footprint as they have higher coefficient of drag (Cd) values due to their upright stance
• At ₹ 74 lakhs, the BMW i7 consumed the highest GST incentive per car sales
• Tata Nexon EV consumed the highest estimated GST incentive of ₹ 760 crore in 2023-24

2023-24 Brand-wise grid-based CO2 emission over the Indian Subcontinent

The below table summarizes the weighted grid-level CO₂ emission of each brand, factoring in the mix of different product lines sold in FY 2023-24. Also included are estimated GST forgone by the government to incentivize sales of these EVs in India.

• CO₂ emissions of all EVs put together were 65 g/km, which is significantly lower than CAFÉ II reference of 113 g/km
• Luxury brands in India have a higher CO₂ footprint due to the WLTC test cycle and performance-oriented motor
• Sales of luxury cars are a mere 3%; however, they consume the bulk of the GST concession benefit (23%) as there is no cap on the value
• The CO₂ footprint of luxury cars is twice that of mass-market products

Real-world range of EVs and CO₂

Still, we are halfway through the CO₂ study. Values calculated above are based on claimed ranges by respective manufacturers based on MIDC or WLTC cycle runs.

In real-world conditions, the actual range of battery electric vehicles (BEVs) often shows significant reductions compared to the claimed figures. For instance, data published by Autocar India from real-world tests indicated that the Nexon EV’s range was 41% lower than the claimed figure in the spring season, while the MG ZS EV’s range was 26% lower than the claimed figure in the summer.

The graph above is based on extrapolated data that shows how a decrease in range leads to a larger grid CO₂ emission. Nexon EV's operational range increases to 100-125 g/km, greatly above the theoretical value of 62 g/km. During the peak summer season, it may worsen more.

Despite having a more powerful motor and a larger size, the MG appears to be more efficient and has a similar CO₂ operating range. The point is that MIDC test cycle statistics may look excellent on paper, but not in practice.

What about hybrid electric vehicles or strong hybrids?

Tata has long been opposing any sort of concession on hybrid cars as they have invested in EV technology and don’t have any competence in hybrid drivetrains as of now in India, though their subsidiary JLR has been selling PHEVs across the globe.

Now at this stage, a comparison can be drawn on emissions, as both technologies have direct or indirect CO₂ emissions over the Indian subcontinent.

At 27.97 km/l claimed fuel efficiency, Toyota Hyryder’s HEV CO₂ output would be 84.8 g/km. Hyryder is a bigger car here, but the CO₂ operating range of the Nexon EV and Hyryder HEV in real-world conditions remains largely in the same ballpark of 100-125 g/km, even if Hyryder’s real-world efficiency drops to 20 kmpl.

In terms of grid-based CO₂ output, the Tata Nexon EV is equally bad as Toyota’s strong hybrid. Data here is quite an eye opener, as neither Tata nor Toyota have ever substantiated their claim of protecting the environment in terms of CO₂ in the Indian public domain.

The Role of 12V and 48V Mild-Hybrids: Are they really worth it?

Mild hybrid technology is often seen as less impactful than full hybrids or plug-in hybrids. Which is true. However, their measurable contributions to lowering emissions, particularly when compared to earlier, non-hybridized versions of the same models, are significant. The Mercedes-Benz GLC’s and Maruti Brezza’s evolution in emissions data is an interesting case study of how each regulatory and technology shift (from BS4 to BS6 to BS6 RDE) influences CO₂ output.

BS4 emission phase:

The GLC's original 2.1L diesel and 2.0L petrol engines had among the highest CO₂ emissions in the BS4 emission compliance phase. As norms were less stringent and engines were prioritized for power and performance without substantial emissions-focused technology, leading to a larger CO₂ footprint.

BS6 emission phase:

For BS6 compliance, Mercedes introduced Euro 6d compliant engines in India with improved combustion efficiency and several exhaust gas after-treatment technology in late 2019. Mercedes in fact replaced the old 2.1L diesel with a new and more powerful 2.0L diesel engine. Detuned 2.0L petrol engine was brought to India with lower power and was devoid of an AWD system. These modifications resulted in significant emissions reductions, with the diesel engine alone cutting CO₂ emissions by 29%.

BS6 RDE emission phase:

The 2nd generation of GLC was launched with the same engine block, but this time they had electric assist, and the petrol engine was available in a higher state of power tune. GLC’s both engine options got 900 Wh Li-ion battery based on 48V architecture, which provides additional power assist through the ISG (integrated-starter-generator) system. The CO₂ level now came down by 9% for diesel because of the 48V hybrid system. And for petrol, CO₂ reduction is 30% from BS4 level, despite the engine being more powerful than what was offered during the BS4 phase.

Maruti Brezza : Mild hybrids based on 12V electric architecture case study

BS4 emission phase:

During the BS4 emission compliance phase, Brezza used to come with a Fiat-sourced 1.25L diesel engine with a CO₂ emission level of 109 g/km. Diesel engines are inherently low on CO₂ emissions due to the lean burning of fuel under high pressure.

BS6 emission phase:

Maruti replaced the diesel with a 1.5L naturally aspirated petrol engine and introduced a 12V ISG-based mild-hybrid system on the 4AT variants, featuring a 12V-36Wh Li-ion battery from Denso, Japan. CO₂ emission difference between 5MT and 4AT was 13 g/Km, or 9% due to Maruti’s mild hybrid system.

BS6 2nd generation Brezza:

With the new generation Brezza, Maruti has doubled battery capacity to 72Wh and was assembled in Gujarat at Toshiba-Denso-Suzuki’s JV unit. The CO2 gap between variants equipped with mild-hybrid technology is as high as 14%. Further, Maruti introduced the CNG version without mild hybrid, and the CO2 level is 107 g/km, slightly lower than the BS4 diesel version.

Conclusion

The 48V and 12V-based mild hybrid systems definitely play an effective role in improving efficiency and reducing CO₂ emissions in real-world conditions. Though reduction percentages remain modest compared to more aggressive cuts seen in plug-in or full hybrids. Still, mild hybrid technology is practical and cost effective in reducing emissions by harnessing energy from regenerative braking and electric boost, particularly when the reference point is conventional ICE engines.

In fact, diesel emissions have come down drastically in the BS6 emission compliance phase, and data shows it is not as bad as it is portrayed, especially for climate change targets, as it has lower CO₂ emissions compared to other fuels.

Does the Indian tax system effectively address environmental concerns?

This graphical analysis highlights the fallacy in the current GST vehicle tax structure, where tax slabs are based on engine capacity rather than actual emissions. The comparison between Tata and Maruti shows that Maruti Brezza’s 1.5L naturally aspirated petrol engine with 72Wh-12V Li-ion battery-based mild-hybrid technology has lower CO₂ emissions than Tata Nexon’s smaller 1.2L turbocharged petrol engine. Yet, due to its larger engine size, Maruti’s engine is significantly penalized with a higher GST rate (45%) compared to Tata's (29%).

In fact, CNG Maruti Brezza is low on CO₂, without even mild hybrid technology, and is still penalized with a higher GST rate.

The point is that engine size criteria is an absurd parameter to check a polluting vehicle. If pollution control is a major objective, then the parameter has to be the emission figure and not engine size. Emission figures based taxation system will push manufacturers to adopt cleaner technology to achieve meaningful emission reduction, regardless of engine size.

Is CNG a better option for environmental causes?

Maruti’s CNG portfolio has substantially lower CO₂ emissions compared to conventional petrol engines. Thus serving as an effective alternative environment-friendly option. Strong-hybrid technology-based Grand Vitara and large MPVs like Invicto have even lower CO₂ impacts.

Moreover, when it comes to CNG as a fuel, Maruti leads in achieving lower CO₂ emissions than Tata and Hyundai. Better efficiency is a technological competence, where Tata’s offerings even fall short in the EV world.

NOx & SOx

NOx emission data is published by every manufacturer in Form 22; however, that data set is not publicly available for every car for this research purpose. Also, the government does not publish NOx and SOx reports for the power grid, though the Pollution Control Board in every state in India regularly monitors such data.

However, the satellite pictures above clearly show how coal-fired thermal power plants in India have a grave impact on the environment with NOx and SOx emissions. And BEVs charged with grid electricity simply exacerbate that effect.

Chapter 1: Primary Objective: Environment Sustainability i.e., reduction in air pollution and lowering greenhouse gas emissions

Chapter 1: Key Findings

BEV emissions due to grid electricity :

BEVs in India currently rely heavily on coal-powered grid electricity. Resulting in a mere shift of emissions to the power generation stations, thus still having significant environmental impact.

Global Warming Impact:

Since Indian power grids are coal-dependent, BEVs indirectly contribute to global warming, undercutting their potential environmental benefits.

Real-World Efficiency Matters:

While theoretical emission figures are relatively lower than ICEs, this, however, depends on achieving promised driving ranges. BEVs with lower real-world range, such as those by Tata, have a disproportionately higher environmental impact compared to more efficient models like MG's. ‘Kitna deti hai’ needs to be taken more seriously in the EV era by carmakers, especially for Tata Motors.

NOx and SOx Emissions:

Coal-fired power plants have a high level of NOx and SOx content due to solid fuel burning and have a grave impact on air quality.

Charging timing matters:

BEVs charged at night from grid electricity, when solar power is unavailable, result in about 35% higher emissions due to the increased reliance on coal power during these hours.

Hybrid and Alternative ICEs:

Mild, strong hybrids, as well as CNG and diesel engines, under new BS6 emission standards and with advancements in emission control technology, produce lower CO₂ emissions than before. Thus, they cannot be undermined in India’s transition phase. After all, end customers need affordable vehicles that are financially viable and self-sustainable without GST support, unlike current EVs.

Chapter 1: Recommendations

Government should prioritize renewable energy:

India should first focus on expanding wind and solar energy generation further to make BEVs genuinely cleaner by reducing the grid’s reliance on coal.

BEV Efficiency Standards & Certification:

The government should introduce efficiency standards and certification for BEVs, similar to household appliances, to ensure carmakers improve range efficiency—especially relevant for manufacturers like Tata Motors.

Adopt Realistic Testing Standards:

Replace the MIDC-RDE testing cycle with a new WLTC standard that reflects typical real-world driving conditions, providing a more accurate measure of BEV efficiency. Moreover, focus should be more on R&D activities and initiatives similar to EU, rather than copying their standards.

Differential Taxation for Luxury EVs:

Luxury EVs should be taxed at a higher rate (28%) due to their higher energy demand and emissions impact on the grid, as their technology is unlikely to cascade effectively to mass-market models. Moreover, battery chemistry used is totally different in mass market (LFP) and luxury products (NMC), and electric motor technology is very generic now.

Emission-Based Tax System:

Shift the tax system to focus on emissions output (CO₂, NOx, CO) rather than engine size, making it technology-agnostic and directly linked to environmental impact.

Long-Term Transition Plan for ICEs:

A gradual and realistic transition plan is the need of the hour that supports cleaner fuel use and improved efficiency, rather than an abrupt push towards BEVs.

"Due to India’s current energy mix, the benefits of EVs are limited, unlike countries that have lower grid emissions like France."

Continue reading pqr's detailed study for BHPian comments, insights and more information.

Mahindra is also considering range extender hybrid powertrains for its born electric SUVs.

Mahindra is reportedly evaluating hybrid powertrain options, including strong-hybrids and range extenders, for its SUV line-up.

According to media reports, Mahindra is studying a strong hybrid system for the XUV 3XO. Codenamed S226, the XUV 3XO hybrid is expected to go on sale in 2026. While exact details are scarce, it could use a 1.2-litre turbo-petrol engine paired with a hybrid system.

Mahindra is also considering range extender hybrid powertrains for its born electric SUVs. Reports suggest that the design and development of range extenders based on the INGLO platform is already underway.

The new models, codenamed M130 and M330, will be powered by a battery and electric motors with a small petrol engine that will work as a generator for charging the battery and extending the overall range.

Mahindra is likely to take a final decision on the market launch of its range extender models in the next 6-8 months. It could target an annual production of around 40,000 to 50,000 units.

Source: Autocar India

Some examples of mild hybrid cars are Maruti Fronx and Brezza. Vehicles like the Honda City and Toyota Hyryder are strong hybrid models.

BHPian ferrarirules recently shared this with other enthusiasts.

With the rising popularity of EVs, Hybrid tech is also gaining traction. There is a lot of talk on the forum regarding different Hybrid options and their pros and cons. So here is thread to cover all the different hybrid drive train options.

The hybrid powertrains can be represented in the following diagram

Series Hybrid aka Range extended electric vehicle

Plugin Hybrid

Cons:

• In city, the car lugs around an ICE adding to extra weight
• On highways, the car lugs around a larger battery adding to extra weight
• If the user doesn't charge the battery, it still pollutes the urban areas
• If the user doesn't charge the battery, the fuel efficiency numbers will go for a toss
• Need to visit the fuel bunk to fill up the petrol tank.

Examples - Nobody is selling mass market plugin hybrid cars in India. MG has hinted on bring PHEVs to India.

Some history of different hybrids being covered on Teambhp

• Teambhp was invited to a Toyota Hybrid event in Japan in 2013. Toyota showcased both Strong Hybrid and Plugin Hybrid. Toyota launched mass-market hybrid in India in 2022 - Related thread
• Nissan note e-Power was caught testing in India in 2017. Nissan never launched the product in India - Related thread
• Plugin Hybrid for India? - The thread discussion was started in 2020. Not even one mass-market plug-in hybrid was launched in India - Related thread

Finally the question

Out of these which hybrid power train will you prefer or will you prefer an EV or will you prefer pure ICE - NA/turbo petrol/diesel

--Image credits to respective owners--

Here's what BHPian vinya_jag had to say about the matter:

Voted for PURE ICE

We are consciously trying to reduce Car usage in our family. This is mostly because of how the traffic around us is shaping up.

We take out our big car only on long drives which is kind of limited to around 5000Kms in a year. Our Workhorse Polo Diesel does the daily duties, which again has been limited by car pooling for routine drives, so the usage is down to around 50Kms per week (2500-3000Kms per year)

Newer cars are not getting any better dramatically anymore, other than powertrain and Gizmos. So, stick to your existing cars as long as it allows you to, fix dents, service them regularly, repaint.

And when the time comes to really really replace your car, a clean and efficient ICE car would do for us.

Added premium of 3-4 Lakhs (Considering a Honda City) for a Hybrid, and a similar premium for EVs too, I don't see a way how it would make economic sense for such low usage.

I agree, if you want the fun of driving an electric car, or if one likes the silent nature of those cars, or if there is no ICE model for a car that you love, you go for the alternate powertrains. But for most, it is the ICE that would make more sense. (YET)

Here's what BHPian riteshritesh had to say about the matter:

Nice information. Is there any difference between the ISG that the Kia Seltos IVT has and the Mild Hybrids of Suzuki /Toyota ( Ciaz/XL6 and the gang)?

I haven't seen any 'special' fuel efficiency on my Seltos nor is there any on the Ciaz in the family. I get 6~7 kmpl on the Kia IVT with ISG and 6~7 kmpl on a pure ICE Honda City CVT or the CVT BRV or a CVT Glanza.

his is for a daily 2 km to and 2 kms fro drive to work.

Here's what BHPian ashivas89 had to say about the matter:

Nice post OP.

For the sake of completeness, I'd like to add the fact that the biggest premise of both series and parallel strong hybrid systems these days is the non-conventional combustion cycle of the ICE. This is what enables mind-boggling fuel efficiency. The ICE in a hybrid powertrain does not bear the burden of "moving" the car by itself. Therefore, it can run on torque-deficient but efficient combustion cycles.

Another point is that the Honda hybrid system operates as a series hybrid for the most part and a pure ICE powertrain (via a direct clutch) for a very brief part of the speed range.

Check out BHPian comments for more insights and information.

Tata and Mahindra have focused a lot of their effort on EVs, effectively skipping hybrids. Toyota has been making hybrids for decades and that puts it and Maruti in a very strong position.

BHPian guru_max recently shared this with other enthusiasts.

With news reports from all over the world coming in that electric vehicle sales have cooled off, many carmakers have altered their targets for EV production. This has implications the world over, the biggest example being Toyota, which was hesitant to launch products in the EV space, focusing more on hybrids. Now they are in a great position to retain the number 1 spot. With range anxiety, cost and infra issues being a stumbling block for mass EV adoption in the medium term, hybrids will probably see a temporary peak in the next 10 years or so.

This, obviously, has a ripple effect in India and not all carmakers are on equal footing. CNG adoption is also growing rapidly. Carmakers can roll out a CNG vehicle quickly, but a hybrid is a different ball game. Tata and Mahindra have focused a lot of their effort on EVs, effectively skipping hybrids. Toyota has been making hybrids for decades and that puts them and Maruti in a very strong position. Global players like Hyundai and Honda can also quickly adapt to make hybrid vehicles in India as they have a good portfolio of hybrid vehicles in their product range.

The question is whether hybrids will take off in India like in other countries. Unlike EVs, hybrids do not suffer from issues such as range, charging infrastructure, etc. They are also much more economical than the ICE cars. The only challenge for hybrids is their cost. If the price difference between ICE cars and hybrids decreases, then we will see a definite increase in sales.

What do BHPians think? Will hybrids fill the gap for a few years? What other factors apart from cost will drive the adoption of hybrids?

Here's what BHPian bijims had to say about the matter:

Hybrids will be a stop-gap solution until EVs take over, with better range, more charging infrastructure and lowered prices, EVs will soon become the norm, but in the meantime, Hybrids will have their time.

Here's what BHPian Thyag had to say about the matter:

I have a different view on the whole, I don't think that EVs or BEVs are not the future (like for a long time, as ICE cars held the market). Rare earth elements being used, the longevity of the batteries and disposal of the same, is all together a bigger nuisance & unsustainable to our planet than the Fossil Fuels.

Hybrids will bridge the gap for now between ICE vehicles & BEV, but I think we will find out some major breakthroughs in the coming years (maybe in 10 years). Actually, hybrids should be given more importance than the BEVs!

Here's what BHPian Shreyans_Jain had to say about the matter:

We must keep aside the fancy noises made by managements of car companies and gauge their real commitment toward electric transition by their stubborn refusal to not launch mass market, affordable EVs and their deliberate half-hearted moves in that space. Ultimately, hybrids are a convenient way for legacy manufacturers to extend the lives of their conventional powertrains and by extension, their own.

Whatever innovation that has happened in the EV space has come from startups and outsiders, not the traditional car industry. This is why the Germans and Americans are so afraid of the Chinese. They are willing to make the products the old timers are not.

Check out BHPian comments for more insights and information.

The 100% tax exemption has come into effect from July 1, 2024.

The government of Uttar Pradesh has announced that electric vehicles and hybrid cars registered in the state will be completely exempt from road tax.

According to media reports, the 100% tax exemption has come into effect from July 1, 2024. It will apply to hybrid electric vehicles, strong hybrid vehicles, plug-in hybrid electric vehicles, series hybrid electric vehicles and series-parallel hybrid electric vehicles.

The registration fees for hybrid vehicles are set at 8% for those costing less than Rs 10 lakh and 10% for cars priced above Rs 10 lakh. The tax waiver will significantly bring down the overall prices of hybrid vehicles and boost sales. 

Several hybrid models have been launched in the Indian market in the past few years. Maruti Suzuki offers the Grand Vitara and Invicto, while Toyota has the Urban Cruiser Hyryder, Innova Hycross and the Camry. Honda also offers the City e:HEV in India.

Source: TOI

What if I am driving through mild floods, let's say in a Maruti Grand Vitara or Toyota Hyryder, and the car moves to the "EV" mode, switching off the engine?

Ambrish Khosla drops in this query via our share page!

I have a query due to the flood-like situation in North India.

In ICE cars, it is recommended to maintain some accelerator input when driving through mild floods (so water doesn't enter the exhaust pipe). In cars with idling start / stop systems, it is recommended to disable the idling start / stop in flooded areas.

But what about Hybrids like the Grand Vitara & Toyota Hyryder? What if I am driving through mild floods and the car moves to "EV" mode, switching off the engine?

I believe they don't have a way to disable "EV mode"?

Please share the best practices as hybrid looks like the near future before the EV wave hits India.

Thank you.

Here's what BHPian Rovergen had to say about the matter:

I come from Gen 3 Prius and think it should be the same for Hyryder. At slow speeds, it starts with the battery and moves to IC when you speed up. In case the battery is charged sufficiently then you have a button for EV-only mode.

I guess you have no option to cut off the hybrid battery and run only on IC unless your Hybrid battery is totally dead or you get the triangle of death which leads to slow mode.

Here's what BHPian MotoBlip had to say about the matter:

I'm not acutely aware of the switching characteristics of a hybrid car, but if there's enough juice in the hybrid battery and it has to navigate through a flooded road, won't switching to EV mode actually be a better option? The chance that the engine suffers a hydrolock would be minimal if not zero. Obviously, this is assuming that the electrical system and the e-motors have some sort of water ingress protection which they usually do since they are extensively tested by OEMs. In any case, it's best to avoid flooded roads altogether regardless of a car's powertrain, specifically speaking of Grand Vitara/Hyryder, as long as water does not enter the cabin/boot, I think the hybrid battery won't sustain any damage.

Found this video online by Toyota, which says the HV system is disabled during a flooding situation, which should mean that they will probably behave like any other ICE vehicle on the road, right?

Here's what BHPian Jeroen had to say about the matter:

I would be interested in hearing what the various owner manuals have to say about this topic! Maybe we should hold our opinions and suggestions until we have read the manual.

I know it’s a tall order because somehow most Petrolheads don’t seem to read manuals. But I would appreciate it if some of our members could dig up the owner manuals of their hybrid and or EV to see what it says if anything at all.

Here's what BHPian NomadSK had to say about the matter:

This is what the manual of Hyundai Elantra’s hybrid model says, scary though

Looks like in this model there’s an option to turn OFF the hybrid system.

As Jeroen have mentioned, please go through the owner manual.

Here's what BHPian Dhruv29 had to say about the matter:

It all depends on how the car is built (Air intake/Electrical connections). For my ES300h, I had to drive it 3-4 times over the period of 5 years on flooded roads where water is probably half the height of the wheel. Best is to avoid the flooded roads altogether, but if you have to drive through it, wait for EV batteries to charge up and then drive on EV mode by giving light throttle input so as to not wake up the ICE.

Image taken yesterday (Notice - EV mode):

If ICE starts, you have the option to stop and again charge up the batteries and continue or you can continue at idle pace if you know how the air intakes are designed in your vehicle.

Unlike the competition, It's rare for ES (7th Gen) to scoop up water from oncoming waves, as the intake design prohibits the water to make way through the grill to air intake directly by oncoming waves.

But it's a risky business. I have a certain level of confidence in my car because I got the car on lift at Service Centre, and checked the build quality of all the connections and air intake design. I have many times waded through the water at a snail's pace where Germans and other vehicles were stranded. Hopefully, this does not backfire someday.

Check out BHPian comments for more insights and information.

With the tax waiver, the on-road price of hybrid models is expected to be reduced by at least Rs 78,000.

The Chandigarh transport department has decided to waive off-road tax on strong hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicles for a limited period of 5 years, starting from March 18, 2023, to March 17, 2028.

The Union Territory of Chandigarh had earlier announced a road tax waiver for electric vehicles. This has now been extended to hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicles as well. The move is expected to reduce the on-road price of these models by at least Rs 78,000.

With an aim to encourage people to buy EVs, the administration is also offering incentives ranging from Rs 3,000 to Rs 2 lakh on e-cycles, e-bikes and electric cars purchased between September 20, 2022 and September 19, 2027.

Source: HT

Because of the fact that the batteries in the pure EV have to be always charged to the fullest to ensure maximum range, they tend degrade that much faster.

BHPian 84.monsoon recently shared this with other enthusiasts.

There has been a lot of talk about giving strong hybrid cars govt. subsidy. There are none as of now - but this is short-sighted. The arguments put up by Tata, Hyundai, Kia and M&M against any subsidies for hybrids are below. Of course, they argue thus because they do not have hybrid technology and have only ICE engines and pure EVs:

• Hybrids still consume petrol, so India will still have to import fuel, EVs don't consume any fuel at all.
• They also need batteries with finite life, so import dependency for batteries does not go away. Battery replacements also need to be imported.

The first argument is totally misleading. A hybrid will consume only 50% of the fuel as a ICE vehicle for in-town runabouts which is where the vast majority of passenger cars are used. So would you rather save 50% fuel imports for hybrid applications today or wait for a decade for pure EVs to go mainstream? Also, that pure EVs in India, is most almost certainly being charged from the dirtiest and most environmentally harmful source of power possible - old, coal fueled power plants, which make up 75% of our power generation. On top, we are importing coal as well these days as we can't seem to figure out how to extract all that coal that lies beneath our country.

What they don't say on battery life: The reason Toyota hybrid batteries last so long is that the vehicles feature an efficient nickel-metal hydride battery pack. Battery management computer systems and a computer-controlled charge controller ensure that the battery charge doesn't exceed around 80% or fall below 20%. This computer-controlled shallow cycling dramatically improves the battery's cycle life, thermal management control, and long-term life. You can see in the various test drive photos etc. the battery is always at 2-3 bars out of 5 and never goes to full 5 bars even after a long hill descent. Similarly it seldom goes to 1 bar as it will be recharged as soon as it drops to lower levels of the second bar.

The big difference is that unlike pure EVs, the hybrid's battery does not have to be charged to its full. The range is not going to depend on the battery carrying a full charge, because the vehicle is anyway never powered entirely by the battery. This is the main reason behind the difference between pure EVs and hybrids in terms of battery life. Because of the fact that the batteries in the pure EV have to be always charged to the fullest to ensure maximum range, they tend degrade that much faster. With the petrol engine on board, the hybrid battery can be charged just a bit as and when required and discharged just a bit as well. This provides the necessary shallow cycle charging conditions to prolong the battery life vastly.

This is also the reason hybrids only need such small batteries as compared to pure EVs. The Innova has a 1.6 KWH battery while a typical EV of similar size will need to have 60-70 KHW to achieve similar range. That is 40 times the capacity of battery! The amount of mining and refinement activity for rare earths and consequent global warming to make a 60 KHW battery is not small! I firmly believe hybrids are a more environmentally friendly solution than pure EVS at this point in time for India, for this reason. You get 50% fuel savings for 5% of the rare earths that a pure EV needs - so do you extract 40 times more rare earths or save only 50% of the fuel?

Check out BHPian comments for more insights and information.

Maruti will also focus on battery electric vehicles as well as CNG, ethanol and bio-CNG compliant engines.

Maruti Suzuki is plans to offer strong hybrid powertrains across its model range in the next 5-7 years.

According to C V Raman, Chief Technical Officer, Maruti Suzuki, every model will have some form of environment-friendly technology, be it mild-hybrid or strong hybrid. He further added that there will be no pure petrol powertrain across its range.

Apart from hybrids, the carmaker will focus on battery electric vehicles, CNG as well as ethanol and bio-CNG compliant engines.

Raman also reiterated that hybrid technology is a stepping stone towards pure EVs. Self-charging hybrids offers reduction in CO2 emissions and enhanced fuel efficiency. It has significant benefits over mild-hybrid powertrains currently offered by the company.

That being said, Maruti Suzuki is now gearing up to launch its first strong hybrid model in the form of a mid-size SUV. It's the sister car of the recently unveiled Toyota Urban Cruiser Hyryder and will take on the Hyundai Creta and Kia Seltos.

Source: ETAuto