[Samurai]

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

I would also like to raise a point. Samurai's diatribe about how engineering actually works is enlightening, but also disheartening. His example of his friend designing FFRA while being least interested in cars is more 'number-crunching' and less 'engineering'. The term engineer supposedly comes from the Latin, French, German term meaning ingenius and implying ingenuity.

His passion is designing cars, not driving them. He has also designed parts for submarines in his early days, but he has never driven one.

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

IMHO a mechanic adapting a part or making up something from scratch to fulfill a requirement holds more 'ingenuity' than someone optimising a design using CAD to optimise production and cost. Of course this is an important part of designing and manufacturing but is it 'engineering'?

It is part of product engineering. People who design concept cars have lot more leeway.

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

True engineering requires passion, true engineering requires 'empirical knowledge', true engineering requires experience, true engineering requires interest, true engineering requires RESPONSIBILITY.

Vehicle development is no more a simple thing. Every part of it has become highly specialized. The guy who designs suspension won't have anything do with the engine design.

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

No matter what the marketing guys and accountants are harping about, basic safety measures have to be insisted and ensured. The designing of a vehicle may require a large number of compromises, but then there are some things you just can't compromise on.

In a large company, marketing guys rule. The only exception is when the company is lead by a visionary techie (usually the founder), these are very rare. In smaller companies you can see more examples of engineers making final decisions. My company is like that.

Originally Posted by headers

Sir, You have stated a lot about your experience - Does that mean the other person knows nothing?

I don't know, you tell me. If you have worked in large product/manufacturing company, you would already know why compromises are made in any product. I explained it for the benefit of people who don't know. If you already knew it, good for you.

Originally Posted by headers

A COMPROMISE ON SAFETY cannot be neglected whether it be JT crowd or M800 crowd or THAR crowd. Life is NOT cheap.

Having been abroad and worked there, YOU should know this better

Actually I know. Safety standards are mandated by the law of the land. When government said every car should have seat-belts, every car maker added it. In future, if government says every car should have ABS and air-bags, every car maker will add that too. If you think SFRA is a compromise of safety in Thar, why stop there? It doesn't have ABS and air-bags for a Jeep that can go that fast. These days even hatches come with those basic safety features. What is more dangerous? Not having air-bags in a head-on collision or having a SFRA breaking while offroading? More than 90% of the Thar customers will never get into a situation where SFRA can break. However, 100% of the Thar customers will be ripping at high speeds on higway, where air-bags and ABS will be very very useful.

Originally Posted by headers

Sir, some of us wanted BD sir to explain why SFRA is put in the THAR and NOT FFRA when FFRA is available off the shelf at M&M.

Since he has maintained his silence on that, one can only assume that the decision process can't be reveal in an open forum. He is bound by NDA like any employee, we have to respect that.

Originally Posted by headers

In s/w lingo, when a API is available, why use another more resource intensive one that would work, but a little slower ?.. get the drift?

There can be numerous reasons. It could be bureaucratic, cost related, or something else. Behram can't reveal that info if it is confidential.

Originally Posted by headers

CORRECT - people are moving with time - Now why should unsafe vehicles be sold?

Again, who decides what is unsafe? Mahindra thinks SFRA is safe enough for 99% of usage, so they give SFRA. One doesn't design a vehicle for extreme conditions unless the primary target customers use it in extreme conditions.

Is Mahindra Thar unsafe? Yeah, I think so. It is unsafe because there is no ABS or air-bags for a vehicle that can be so easily pushed beyond 100-120-140+ kmph. But I don't see you complaining about that.

[georgev]

I expect the Thar to be pocket friendly compared to the future 4x4 chocalate SUV.s expected from MM. more over i love the classic jeep looks over the new MM grille. so when is the Thar turned into a reality ?

[headers]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Is Mahindra Thar unsafe? Yeah, I think so. It is unsafe because there is no ABS or air-bags for a vehicle that can be so easily pushed beyond 100-120-140+ kmph. But I don't see you complaining about that.

I have not shifted gears as yet Sharat!

BTW, I do understand Behram cant reveal all details, but, he can reveal the numbers to educate prospective customers of THAR.

1. An SFRA can break even ONROAD, not necessarily OFFRoad.

2. A R&P steering system is not the best to have on a 4wd machine.

And WHY are we cribbing about the THAR - Because, it is BETTER to CRIB now than after the vehicle is launched.

I understand many people have access to this wonderful database which thrashes every aspect of a vehicle. Hence IFF the manufacturer wants to take it correctly and rectify the issues, Good, Else, too bad for the prospective customers.

And I drive the same NEF engine in 2wd form every day - a average of 100kms a day at 120 kph - I WILL definitely feel reassured that if my axle breaks, my wheels stay on the road. Just imagine the same with SFRA

Though I'm no test driver. I have driven for the past 20+ years..

[DKG]

Which 4x4 sold anywhere in the world offers FFRA as standard fitment? Or even in their options list?

[svsantosh]

^^ LandRover - since its beginning of time (IIRC) came with FFRA. Still does...

[howler]

Originally Posted by star_aqua

Lets forget about this 1% crowd who are called as OFF-ROADERS.
There are places called as Chikmagalur, Coorg in karnataka. Let M&M guys visit these places and stay there for just two days to understand what a JEEP is and whether they can sell their THAR to them. The JEEPs are bread and butter for them. mind you a car is a second vehicle for them. Ok now dont think driving in estate is nothing in front of what JT does. the JEEPs are attached with the trailers and it will be loaded with atleast 2tons, yes im not exaggerating. and the workers will also be ferried back with the heavy trailer. all the women are into the JEEP and men are on the loaded trailer. head count will be like 15. i have seen this in estates where the JEEP used to do steep climbs with all those load in it. now imagine a axle break.

Now do not think these two places can be ignored as they are just two places in karnataka state. Now these are the ONLY places where JEEPS are still running and still they dont have a replacement for their 540s. JEEPs are parked in front of every house. So we can get an old JEEP there? NO, they dont sell it usually to outsiders as they have to buy it back during the coffee season.

And people have figured out the difference between a 540 and a 550, as 540 was made by artisans and 550 was made by engineers. They dont use 550 for their core work, they always use 540. 550 is preferred for only commuting purpose.

Amen to that sir, that is exactly what I had posted earlier to which I did not get any reaction from DB or Spike or the rest of the 4x4 brigade at M&M. We use 4x4s on a regular basis and off-roading is incidental, not a lifestyle. As long as M&M continues to be the sole provider of 4x4 UV s in india, we are compelled to buy the crap they turn out. Theres a reason we buy just one mahindra and then never sell it, whats the point of selling an old pile of crap when the new one stinks just as much if not more. As for the Thar, i doubt it will sell at all in our parts as no one will want to pay c-segment car money for a mm540 clone.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

^^ LandRover - since its beginning of time (IIRC) came with FFRA. Still does...

what about the Jeeps? including the Cherokees and Grand Cherokees?

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by star_aqua

Lets forget about this 1% crowd who are called as OFF-ROADERS.
There are places called as Chikmagalur, Coorg in karnataka. Let M&M guys visit these places and stay there for just two days to understand what a JEEP is and whether they can sell their THAR to them. The JEEPs are bread and butter for them. mind you a car is a second vehicle for them. the JEEPs are attached with the trailers and it will be loaded with atleast 2tons, yes im not exaggerating.
Now do not think these two places can be ignored as they are just two places in karnataka state. Now these are the ONLY places where JEEPS are still running and still they dont have a replacement for their 540s. JEEPs are parked in front of every house. So we can get an old JEEP there? NO, they dont sell it usually to outsiders as they have to buy it back during the coffee season.

@Staraqua there are also places named as Pullikanam (Idukki District), Mundakkayam, Peerumedu (Kottayam District), Konni, Pamba, Vadasserikkara, Sabarimala (Pathanamthitta District) were majority of the vehicles are CL/Commander and not even the MM540s. Why do you think this difference exists? Why didn't the MM540/550s sell similar to the CL/Commanders during the 90's when the 540s were still under production? FYI Karnataka is not the ONLY place where Jeeps are bread and butter for them, Kerala still stands among the most prominent places were these humble vehicle continues to sell (if you or any of your friends have traveled to these places you will understand what I am speaking, may be Jeep Captain/ Mallu forum members can add/justify this). Please note that I have mentioned only the Eastern/Travancore part of Kerala, the list is very long).
There is also a place called as Jhunjhunu in Rajasthan were you will find plenty of these Jeeps (may be DB Sir can add on).

Originally Posted by howler

Amen to that sir, that is exactly what I had posted earlier to which I did not get any reaction from DB or Spike

Hope ^^ answers your question.

Spike

P.S. I happen to be from Kerala.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Hi Arka,

Yes I agree I don't have a Jeep, not because I don't want one, I cannot afford one now due to financial reasons. But that does not mean I do not know Jeeps, let others in the forum say I do not know Jeeps and I will stop posting in the 4x4 forum.

There are several things which I cannot disclose in a public forum due to obvious reasons.

Hi Spike,

You don't have a JEEP, so you don't know the practicalities of owning one and running one.

Regards,

Arka

PS - Since you claim to know your JEEPs, how come you have still not replied to the scientific engineering behind development of the MM550XD Series.

Originally Posted by Samurai

If you think that was a textbook answer, please show me the textbook that describes such reality. What I have explained is real world scenario that happens inside every corporate. I have seen in India as well as USA. I doubt it is different in any other country.

Yes, I have constantly done it on an incremental basis. But that is not engineering, but artisan work by various mechanics.

I don't think there is anybody left here who doesn't understand FFRA/IFS and the pros and cons. Not after so many months of repetitive debate. You assume Behram doesn't know engineering simply because he didn't plonk in FFRA in Thar. What kind of logic is that?

You don't know how software products are built. After all, few software companies in India build products. Coding is just one aspect of building a product. Please don't start making judgement on my professional capabilities without knowing what I have done in professional life. I have never questioned yours, so let's keep it clean.

We are not talking science here, but engineering. And product engineering is always bound by economic reality. Until and unless you can understand that, why FFRA is out and IFS is in, will remain a mystery for you forever.

Hi Sharath,

I'll answer you in parts.

1) What makes you think we are not in touch with the real world scenario here? And what makes you think the corporate world is the REAL WORLD.

2) Why do you need to make incremental mods?

3) I don't doubt DB's capability as an engineer, but as an engineer he did not think that was necessary? What kind of engineering is that when it is a Safer Options, and can possibly save lives.

4) I have no interest in you professional or personal life. Just one questions
Have you designed or built a car?

5) If Engineering is not Science, I am lost here.

Regards,

Arka

[howler]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Hope ^^ answers your question.

Spike

P.S. I happen to be from Kerala.

err. no it does not. I made a statement; M&M continues to churn out sub standard vehicles that do not even perform the job they are intended to do and they continue to release vehicles that do not cater to requirements of the target market. that is if M&M even has a target market, i think they just close their eyes and shoot.. in the dark.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by DKG

Which 4x4 sold anywhere in the world offers FFRA as standard fitment? Or even in their options list?

Hi DKG,

FFRA as OEM

1) Willy MB/Ford GPW
2) Hothkiss- Delhaye VLD
3) Land-Rover Series and Defenders
4) TLC 70 Series
5) Force Gurkha
6) NGCS MM550XD(2004-2008)

Regards,

Arka

[DKG]

I feel that the appropriate question is what is the load rating of the SFRA installed in the Thar. Meaning in offroad situations, say stuck in two feet of slush what kind of load can the axle handle? 5000 lbs? 6000 lbs? That is ultimately the reason why a axle breaks.

In my opinion its not essential to have a FFRA in a offroader provided the SFRA axle has the strength to handle loads encountered in extreme offroad situations.

I vaguely remember Mr. Dhabhar asking someone, I think Spike, at the Blr event about some axle to consider when we were discussing MLD.

So SFRA are not inherently unsafe. It all depends on what kind of load handling strength has been designed into it.

And buying an offroader with SFRA in no way means you have a disaster waiting to happen.

As far as I can remember the Jeep Wranglers never came with FFRA nor offered it as an option (my memory fails and I could be wrong there). You know what Jeeps can do offroad.

So Thar with SFRA is not such a bad proposition guys, provided obviously they have addressed loading issues

I can understand that in trucks a FFRA makes sense considering the loads it has to carry. But a beefed up SFRA should be able to comfortably handle any kind of stress an offroad situation will throw at it. No reason why it should be inherently a compromise in offroad design

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi Spike,

You don't have a JEEP, so you don't know the practicalities of owning one and running one.

Regards,

Arka

PS - Since you claim to know your JEEPs, how come you have still not replied to the scientific engineering behind development of the MM550XD Series.

Arka, which practicalities are you talking about? Can you explain? AFAIK, whether it is a Jeep or a car the basic principles remain the same.

For your query on "Scientific Engineering", i feel it as an extension of mere common sense. What do you say?

Spike

P.S. Why are you behind the MM550 XD, just because you happen to own one?

[KMT]

Boss, in our market you can shoot in the dark and still hit a big target. How does a sardine can on wheels (Bolero) sell in record numbers or the ugly rabbit tooth scorpio be considered an aspirational ride??
We are beggars and not choosers... manufacturers know that well.

In the Thar discussions, basic safety (collapsible steering/crumple zones) or creature comforts ( waterproof interiors) are not even metioned. I reckon Tatas are more responsible on this front!!

What about a fundamental design thing like placing the intercooler in front of a radiatior on a 4WD, it is 'chalta hai engineering' at its best.
Because of enthusiasts like DB and spike we see some progress, if not the company would have kept selling us hurricane engined CJs.

Yeah, most owner drivers of 4WD Jeeps in rural areas will go for a Scorpio/Bolero and driver driven ones will go for the cheaper CJ/Marshall variants.

Depending on the pricepoint the Thar could go the way of the Scorp Getaway or the Xenon...ie Just a lifestyle niche.

If they pitch it for a volume play and have basic versions priced at Marshall money they have a chance of extracting another life of MM540 dies they bought 20 yrs ago. I would consider buying it as an estate vehicle (trailer/labour haulage) for Rs 5-6L OTR.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Arka, which practicalities are you talking about? Can you explain? AFAIK, whether it is a Jeep or a car the basic principles remain the same.

For your query on "Scientific Engineering", i feel it as an extension of mere common sense. What do you say?

P.S. Why are you behind the MM550 XD, just because you happen to own one?

Hi Spike,

Let get into the practicalities

1) Effect of a Heavier Wheel Disc (LP1109) on the Axle, Steering & Suspension. This of course was the pre NGCS MM550XD.

2) Rear Axle Failure with FWHubs, because the Hubs were not locked, hence eliminated in 2001/02 again on the Pre-NGCS MM550XD.

3) Have you driven back home with a snapped rear axle? Only possible with an FFRA.

4) Effect of Auto-Locker on the Rear-Axle if its not properly installed (the Installation Manual didn't cover this aspect) it throws the rear end of the vehicle while locking and unlocking. A play of few mm will destroy the internals of the Diff.

If scientific engineering is the reserved domain of M&M engineers, I have pointed out quite a few instances, that they have been missing.

But then again Common Sense, is not so common

Regards,

Arka

PS - I own a 1996MM540XD. I have learnt quite a bit along the way of making her a reliable and performing 4WD.

Originally Posted by DKG

I feel that the appropriate question is what is the load rating of the SFRA installed in the Thar. Meaning in offroad situations, say stuck in two feet of slush what kind of load can the axle handle? 5000 lbs? 6000 lbs? That is ultimately the reason why a axle breaks.

In my opinion its not essential to have a FFRA in a offroader provided the SFRA axle has the strength to handle loads encountered in extreme offroad situations.

I vaguely remember Mr. Dhabhar asking someone, I think Spike, at the Blr event about some axle to consider when we were discussing MLD.

So SFRA are not inherently unsafe. It all depends on what kind of load handling strength has been designed into it.

And buying an offroader with SFRA in no way means you have a disaster waiting to happen.

As far as I can remember the Jeep Wranglers never came with FFRA nor offered it as an option (my memory fails and I could be wrong there). You know what Jeeps can do offroad.

So Thar with SFRA is not such a bad proposition guys, provided obviously they have addressed loading issues

I can understand that in trucks a FFRA makes sense considering the loads it has to carry. But a beefed up SFRA should be able to comfortably handle any kind of stress an offroad situation will throw at it. No reason why it should be inherently a compromise in offroad design

Hi DKG,

I agree with you on the JEEP Wranglers, but then most of the models which are sold, are the lower or mid-range and then its After Market Mods (Dana 60s/Corporate 14 Bolt and Unimogs) Some even Uprgade to DANA44 SFRA.

But here in INDIA, M&M has done a fantastic thing by making the 1 Piece FFRA DANA44.

Why don't they use that, it has all the necessary attributes, this was the second instance where M&M Showed the JEEPing world (DANA44s) how it is done.

Regards,

Arka

PS - Can anyone quote the first Instance.