7th June 2009, 00:19
| #211 | ||||||
| Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Bangalore
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| I would have loved if you would have done little search before coming up with this idiotic blabber. Quote:
I am not talking of Wikipedia do some serious search or talk to people who work in this field. Also as per HDCP the rendering device need to be HDCP compliant why exactly you think people buy those expensive audio amps with HDCP from Onkyo and others Quote:
Read a bit on various encoders / decoders and container formats. Quote:
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Any way DVD-Audio and Blue-Ray are not same DVD-audio labels existed around 5 /6 years back but the format never took off primarily there is no great difference to normal human ear. a little bit of search on net from where you copy and paste stuff would have helped to find some consumer grade labels. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17080&type=page&qp=crootcategor yid%23%23-1%23%23-1~~q70726f63657373696e6774696d653a3e313930302d3031 2d3031~~ccat02001%23%230%23%235cvq~~nf207||4456442 d417564696f&list=y&nrp=15&sc=musicSP&sp=-bestsellingsort+skuid&usc=cat02001 Again my dear senior, there is no LOSSY algorithm implemented in the world on any of the DVD-Audio or Blu-Ray at 192Khz. (Yes, if you hear the lossy audio in a DVD-R or Blu-Ray, its not the master audio - its the substitute in DD/DTS which is actually bad quality than your CDs - Its for poor people those dont have a 96/192Khz card). Also dear honorable, its impossible to deliver a 5.1 channel audio in 192/24 because of the throughput limitation of the Discs. May i know the name of the sound engineer who delivered you a brilliant 24/192/5.1 audio using a lossy format? Is it MP3/AAC/DTS/DD? Quote:
When you sample and quantize any analog signal there is a loss , the quantized signal is not exactly what you want to store on the optical media one need to apply compression so that maximum amount of data can be stored and some interpolations for losses in human perceptible reigion is done. Why don't you start with studying some simple algos for which reference code is available example AMR NB or MP3 or even FLAC Quote:
Last edited by amitk26 : 7th June 2009 at 00:26. | ||||||
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7th June 2009, 00:46
| #212 |
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7th June 2009, 01:34
| #213 | ||
| Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Bangalore
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I never though that that A.R Rehman invents compression algorithms and Studio Sound engineers decide the PC card specifications and content protection compliance. I thought this work is done by some nerdy kind of guys who spend hours behind PCs studying theory and implementation is done by people who provide code and DSPs and get payed a monthly salary without anyone knowing them Anyway my purpose was to point out an obvious week link in your chain your ears may say it is decoded output of Dolby TrueHD or DTS MA but the specification of your sound card says otherwise. It is your choice and if you have any psychological benefit by believing that you are listening to a TrueHD output no one can deny it but then I am reproducing specification of one of the XONAR Card below pay attention to the highlighted portion. Even if your XONAR card is not exactly same you can check it's spec to see if it the TruHD/ DTS MA is for Analog ports I am also not payed to argue with people on net but your attitude is amazing an there is something which brings me back here. Please notice below it says HDCP 1.2 also the 192Khz lossless playback is on HDMI and SPDIF and not on analog output , This is not becuase it can not be done but it must not be provided for sake of HDCP 1.2 Specifications Processor and Interface Audio processor- ASUS AV200 (Max. 192KHz/24bit) Bus Compatibility PCI 2.1 specification compatible HDMI HDMI 1.3a, HDCP1.2, DVI 1.0 Video Specifications Video Resolution- DTV Resolution: up to 1080p - PC Resolution: up to UXGA Color Depth and Range- Up to 48-bit/per pixel color depths (RGB or YCbCr) - Broader xvYCC color space standard Audio Sample Rate and Resolution HDMI1.3 Playback Formats - 7.1 channel LPCM 192KHz/24bit - Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD Master Audio bitstreaming S/PDIF Digital Input and Output 192KHz/24bit I/O Ports HDMI Ports - HDMI-Out Type A x 1 - HDMI-In Type A x 1 Digital S/PDIF Coaxial/TOSLINK combo Front Panel Header - HD Audio and AC97 AUX in Aux-in-4-pin Header Driver Features - Complete Dolby and DTS technologies - DS3D GX2.5 - VocalFX - ASIO2.0 Software Utility- ArcSoft Total Media Theatre - 7.1-ch Blu-ray movie player[/SIZE] The following review confirms this Xonar HDAV1.3 Deluxe: Asus HTPC sound card does Everything | silentpcreview.com Quote:
Releases - DRM V 1.0 HDCP Digital Content Protection I may not know about audio or I may not even tell a sterio sound from Mono but whatever is provided above is correct. If MR. Bose or Rehman have entered in to busniess of DRM implementation or even reading spec surely many of us will loose our job About loss less remember it is just compression on storage media . there will be some loss ( may not be perceptible) while digitizing. Last edited by amitk26 : 7th June 2009 at 01:46. Reason: cleaning quotes | ||
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7th June 2009, 01:40
| #214 |
| Distinguished - BHPian   | |
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7th June 2009, 01:47
| #215 |
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7th June 2009, 01:49
| #216 |
| Distinguished - BHPian | |
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7th June 2009, 02:05
| #217 |
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7th June 2009, 02:13
| #218 | |||||
| Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Bangalore
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The broken part applies to key pairs on HDMI output so if one wants to pirate still using a non-compliant renderer and keys available ( total 40) that can be done but still device manufacturers don't provide the same signal on Analog. A slight correction whoever wants to manufacture consumer devices on which MPAA provided content has to implemet and license it , Samsung , Sony and all others including ASUS has implemented. Read the spec carefully and ask ASUS Tek if they provide the same signal on analog port after DAC conversion. Quote:
S/PDIF ( Sony _ Phillps Digital interface) can support at max 2 channels at this rate read the IEC 61937. When I wrote the use of SPDIF and your card's spec it does not mention number of channel on SPDIF. What I wrote was that due to HDCP restrictions card manufacturers deliver the high defination output only on S/PDIF an HDMI and after scaling down on Analog. The Card spec just says that but it omits to mention what it does not do. Half truth with reference to SPDIF and Analog ports from consumers point of view but that is what it is Quote:
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Also if you are limited by hardware throughput nothing on codec part can overcome if decoded data exceeds the limit. Quote:
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7th June 2009, 02:41
| #219 |
| BHPian Join Date: May 2008 Location: Chennai
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7th June 2009, 02:56
| #220 |
| BHPian Join Date: May 2008 Location: Chennai
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7th June 2009, 03:29
| #221 |
| BHPian Join Date: May 2008 Location: Chennai
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7th June 2009, 03:34
| #222 | |||
| Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Bangalore
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Listen again if the decoded data exceeds the available bandwidth nothing in codec can help you to transport the decoded data and that is why you can transport only 2 CH over SPDIF link, Is this not obvious ? What MLP has do with this once you decoe MLP is out of picture Quote:
I am not in position to justify the DTS-MA and TryeHD costs but they are propriety implemenations ,People do license propriety licensed technology for many reasons sometimes it is support , sometimes it is better output. but surely Dolby and DTS are able to convince thier customers due to some reason. Something similar to Linux vs windows Quote:
No one listens to digital isn't is obvious ? Now you said something about bitstreaming on analog and breaking HDCP which is beyond my understanding. I hope you understand what bitstreaming is ? So please care to tell what that special bitstreaming software is whcih can break HDCP and provide output on Analog ? Well you are partially right that one can break HDCP but that is using digital interface not analog. After decoding if you get the the raw bitstram somewhere it needs to be converted to analog and in any PCB that point is DAC Your information is halfbaked breaking the HDCP using bitstraming has entierly different meaning. Actually what HDCP does is that it allows the decoding on the PC side and then the digitised output is provided to the digital port ( either HDMI or S/PDIF for audio) and HDMI or DVI for Video. Now as per HDCP before the renderer ( amplifier / monitor) receives this data it has to be authenticated using a pair of keys one public and one private this is very similar to AKAv1 algorithm which is used in SIP and some other usecases . The problem was that out of original 40 private key which were released to device manufacturers most leaked but that problem can be fixed as these keys are modifiable actually by firmware upgrade. So as of today one can handshake and authenticate with HDCP compliant device and then receive bitstream. MPAA as of now does not care becuase there is no real content but the Keys can be updated ( by firmware update) So whenever the mass content will be released they hope to provide update and protect but current focus is to have devices in mass market. But there is no way one can bitstream some thing on the analog port becuase the port on which bitstreams are sent is known as Digital port. Hope this helps. Now one more thing breaking Video is always easier becuase for video you can rip and store it on the disk and play using DVI interface. DVI is not protected as it was released for moniters much before HDMI. Also if you are transcoding the ripped BlueRay Video still you can play over analog link. For Audio equivelent of this would be transcoding to some other format and playing back but then becuase your decoding and ADC is on the card it becomes difficult ( else you would not have purchased the Sound card at all) Last edited by amitk26 : 7th June 2009 at 03:36. | |||
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7th June 2009, 03:46
| #223 | |
| Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,089
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| Quote:
What is this special bitstream player you have ? Read my explanation carefully in other post , What you can break is handshake for getting bitstream on HDMI or S/PDIF or any other digital port but nothing for bypassing DAC on your sound card . If you realy have this special software to bitstream on analog port it is nothing but snake oil. If you have some method to prove it is not then congratulations you have invented a modulation technique to modulate digital data (bitstream) on Analog outpit but still it remains to be explained how your JBL Amp is converting this bitstream to Audio .. Ha Ha Ha So it is obvious you are listning to scaled down audio and are quite happy beliving it to be exact output of 192 Khz 24 bit sample and this proves that your ears can not make any diff between scaled down and exact and it is a good replica and my statement is proved. OK you may be a good sound mixer / artist but simply you need to understand the internal working and differences in how interconversion works. On other hand I do not have any kind of understanding of what people mean by tight bass or headroom and other such things | |
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7th June 2009, 03:57
| #224 |
| BHPian Join Date: May 2008 Location: Chennai
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7th June 2009, 04:30
| #225 | |||
| Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,089
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| Hey dude you need some serious update on your knowledge about which you are so sure , I am really enjoying this now. Quote:
Listen MLP is compression when you decode what you get is uncompressed bitstream ( Digital output in bits) at the same rate it was sampled from original analog now this digital data needs to be converted to analog and a TI or Bur Brown DAC does it on PC Soundcard for analog output. For digital output (using some interface such as HDMI or S/PDIF) there can be two ways (1) Your PC/ Blueray player does Decoding of TrueHD/DTA MA and provide uncompressed bitstream (still digital) per HDMI or S/PDIF protocol now if you have a digital receiver/amplifier with HDMI it will decode and convert to Analog. The Amp here just receives the decoded bitstream and converts to analog but does not have TrueHD ( MLP ) or DTS MA decoding algorithm implementation Most of the low end Amps with HDMI just do this In this example MLP compressed data does not go over the digital interface (2) Another way is that you are using a digital AV reciver with TrueHD / DTS MA decoding capacity Highend Yamaha ( Z11 ) , Onkyo , Danon digital receivers have this capability . In this case the HDMI connector on Amp will receive the MLP data and decode and convert to analog. Quote:
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why dont you search in google and read about it Well no one remembers any protocol off the hat specially if the job involves reading dozens of protocola so I have digged up following info for you. And the 2 192Khz Channel on SPDIF is possible with any manufacturer not just Asus. For sending 24 bits 4 extra bits which are normally set to 0 are used and also in control word bit for number of channels is not set ( meaning 2 channel) the subframesize as per protocol is 192 bits. So please be aware ASUS is just following the standard otherwise you can not use S/PDIF with any Amp. Still you are to explain what is that bitstraming on analog that can break HDCP content protection | |||
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