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Old 21st August 2019, 10:23   #676
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by locusjag View Post
https://theprint.in/defence/8-pieces...i-f-16/278752/
One only wonders why this author had to go and write for the ever dubious 'The Print'?
What a hard hitting factual analysis of the dog fight!! I am impressed by the amount of work in analysis from the various angles that has gone into this article. Thanks for sharing. Loved reading the whole article!

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Old 21st August 2019, 10:40   #677
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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What a hard hitting factual analysis of the dog fight. I am impressed by the amount of work in analysis from the various angles that has gone into this article. Thanks for sharing. Loved reading the whole article!
The funny thing is, I haven't even grasped its contents fully yet. We have a jovial/colloquial saying in Tamil for pieces of work where deep analysis has been put into it - "I will require a silent room sans any disturbance to read it, understand every aspect in it and digest it fully"

This article is so profound!
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:29   #678
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
...- No. 51 "Sword Arms", who later became famous as the "Guardians of Srinagar" and for Wg Cdr Abhinandan's exploits recently.

No. 108 Sqdn still flies the MiG-21M, so do No. 35 "Rapiers" & No. 37 "Black Panthers".

Skanchan sir, You are a living history book and wikipedia like Narayan sir!

I have a question, the MiG21 that Wg. Cdr. Abhi flew was it a M or an MF? How does the Bis/Bison upgrades and further improvements that subsequently happen (including Israeli electronics, EW suites etc.) changed the config? The basic airframe was/is still from the 80's right (except for the spinal fuel tank expansion)?
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Old 21st August 2019, 14:40   #679
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Skanchan sir, You are a living history book and wikipedia like Narayan sir!
That is flattering but I am not worthy of such praise, Thank you. But Narayan Sir's knowledge on these matter are on a different level, that us mortals can only dream about.

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
I have a question, the MiG21 that Wg. Cdr. Abhi flew was it a M or an MF? How does the Bis/Bison upgrades and further improvements that subsequently happen (including Israeli electronics, EW suites etc.) changed the config? The basic airframe was/is still from the 80's right (except for the spinal fuel tank expansion)?
Wg Cdr Abhinandan from No. 51 Sqdn "Sword Arms" was flying a MiG-21 Bison that day. The Bison's serial number was CU2328.

MiG-21 Bisons are upgraded Type 75 MiG-21bis, that airframe's former serial no. was C2328 (after Bison upgrades, the serial nos were changed from C2XXX series to CU2XXX, where "U" stands for the Upgrade). The MiG-27 UPG and MiG-29UPG follow similar follow similar upgrade serial number conventions.

The MiG-21bis was the fourth and last generation of MiG-21s produced. If you compare and IAF MiG-21bis to a previous(third) generation IAF MiG-21M/MF, the differences are not so noticeable.

MiG-21M/MF:
Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force-21m.jpg

MiG-21bis:
Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force-21bis.jpg

The 21bis has a larger dorsal spine(barely noticeable when compared to the M/MF) and the dorsal spine extends well into the tail fin and ends right in front of the brake chute container. Then there is the serial no differentiation method, while IAF MiG-21M/MFs had C1XXX series serial nos., the MiG-21bis in IAF serice had C2XXX series serial nos.

The Bison upgrade(also known as 21-93 upgrade by the Russians) was born because of delay in the LCA/Tejas programme. It was proposed to extend the Total Technical Life (TTL) of the MiG-21bis from the current level and Upgrade the avionics of the existing aircraft. The upgrade included major structural modifications by MiG which would incorporate Western Avionics and indigenously developed components.

The first two upgraded Bisons in Russia were CU2777 & CU2769 (former MiG-21bis C2777 & 2769). Other MiG-21bis airframes were upgraded to Bison standards by HAL in India.

As you rightly said, the basic airframe remained the same but there have a been a few structural changes. Most noticeable ones are new canopy, chaff/flare dispenser on the wing roots and new RWR and EW gear on the tail fin. Apart from that, installation of the the Kopyo radar Bison upgrade gave the aircraft BVR capability with the ability to fire R-27 and R-77 air to air BVR missiles and R-73 IRMs. The Bison can also fire TV guided bombs and missiles.
Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force-2195938-copy.jpg

The pics below show the structural differences between the MiG-21M/bis/Bison:
MiG-21M of No.37 "Black Panthers" Sqdn (Notice the dorsal spine is much smaller & ends near the data recorder access panel)
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MiG-21bis of No.26 "Warriors" Sqdn (the only IAF sqdn still flying the vanilla MiG-21bis.Notice the dorsal spine is a bit larger & extends well into the tail fin,ends near the brake parachute container)
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MiG-21 Bison(notice the changes in the airframe compared to the MiG-21bis):
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The standard IAF MiG-21bis never had BVR and precision strike capabilities(nor did any other MiG-21bis of any other nationality for that matter, the Soviet ones may have had some air to surface guided missile firing capability). The MiG-21bis could only carry Rocket pods, unguided bombs and as an interceptor could carry R-13/R-60/R550 IRMs. The only upgrade the vanilla IAF MiG-21bis received (much before Bison upgrade) was installation of an indigenously developed HUD.

Last edited by skanchan95 : 21st August 2019 at 14:51.
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Old 21st August 2019, 15:27   #680
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

A little bit on MiG 21s, Various variants of MiG 21 with the IAF are and were:

Type - 77 FL fitted with R-11 aeroengine inducted in mid late 1960's
Type - 96 M fitted with R-11 aeroengine inducted in 1970's
Type -96 MF fitted with R-13 aeroengine inducted in mid 1970's
Type - 75 fitted with R-25 aeroengine. Also known as MiG Bis inducted in late 70's and early 80's
MiG 21 - Bison- upgraded MiG Bis.

Trainers

MiG 21 Type 66 with R-11 aeroegines
MiG 21 Type 69 with R-13 aeroengines

Presently only few Bis and Bisons remain on active duty. Aircraft flown by Wg Cdr Abhinandan was a Bison.

Later IAF kept on changing between R 11/13 aeroengines in the two variants of T-96 depending upon availability.

Lastly about the basic structure of the aircraft, has more or less remained same from T-77 days, all the mods which have been carried out are mounted equipment. Perhaps easy way to explain is that these are monocoque structures and that has remained same.

Last edited by PGA : 21st August 2019 at 15:38.
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Old 21st August 2019, 16:20   #681
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by PGA View Post
Type - 77 FL fitted with R-11 aeroengine inducted in mid late 1960's
Type - 96 M fitted with R-11 aeroengine inducted in 1970's
Type -96 MF fitted with R-13 aeroengine inducted in mid 1970's
Type - 75 fitted with R-25 aeroengine. Also known as MiG Bis inducted in late 70's and early 80's
MiG 21 - Bison- upgraded MiG Bis.
You forgot the Type 74 MiG-21F-13s & Type 76 MiG-21PFs that flew in the 1965 war with No. 28 Sqdn.

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Originally Posted by PGA View Post

Lastly about the basic structure of the aircraft, has more or less remained same from T-77 days, all the mods which have been carried out are mounted equipment. Perhaps easy way to explain is that these are monocoque structures and that has remained same.
Not entirely true. The MiG-21 has been classified into four different generations.

Our very first MiG-21 - the Type 74 MiG-21F-13 was from the first generation of MiG-21s that included the F and Czech built F-13 MiG-21 variants. Again, very different from the later MiG-21 variants.
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The Type 77 MiG-21FL is from second generation MiG-21s that included PF,PFM and PFS MiG-21 variants.(C750 was the mount of No. 47 "Black Archers" Sqdn's Flt Lt B B Soni when he shot down a PAF F-104A near Jamnagar in the 1971 war)
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Whereas the MiG-21M/MF is from the third generation MiG-21s that included R,RF,S,SM & SMT MiG-21 variants.


The MiG-21bis is from the fourth generation MiG-21s that included bis SAU & bis LAZUR MiG-21 variants.


The FL is structurally very different and lighter compared to the MiG-21MF & MiG-21bis. The Spine is completely different. The FL had a single piece forward opening canopy, while the M/MF/bis have a smaller and side opening canopy. The M/MF/bis have an internal gun,while the FL did not have it(it carried a detachable GP-9 gunpod on the centerline station)
Front opening Canopy of the MiG-21FL:
Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force-fl_canopy.jpg

Side opening Canopy of the MiG-21bis:
Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force-bis_canopy.jpg

The FL initially had only one weapon station on each wing, while the M/MF/bis have two. The FLs were later strengthened structurally later and they too had two weapons stations per wing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PGA View Post

Trainers

MiG 21 Type 66 with R-11 aeroegines
MiG 21 Type 69 with R-13 aeroengines
The IAF had two variants of MiG-21 Type 66 trainers - the U-400 & U-600/US

The Type 66 MiG-21U-400 was first MiG-21 trainer that IAF had received. Notice the smaller tail fin type that did not have a brake parachute container.
Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force-u400.jpg

Type 66 MiG-21U-600/US. Notice the larger tail fin that has brake parachute container
Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force-u600.jpg

Type 69 MiG-21UM. Notice the Antenna on the dorsal spine, periscope in the rear cockpit(instructor's station) and the Angle of Attack sensor near the blue No.21 Sqdn "Ankush" logo on the nose.
Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force-um.jpg

Last edited by skanchan95 : 21st August 2019 at 16:49.
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Old 21st August 2019, 16:56   #682
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Kanchan Sir while you are correct, I am not wrong either.

AFAIK the aircraft which came to First Supersonics were only for conversion purpose and went back to USSR. They never formed in the order of battle for the IAF.

The spine of the aircraft ( dorsal fuel tank) and the front canopy mentioned are part of mounted equipment, they are removable without affecting any part of the structure. Infact the aircraft doesn't have a spine it's just a collection of bulkheads.

The tail chute on T-66 is mounted next to the ventral fin and not below the tail fin as visible in T-69.

There are some more minor difference as well which includes gun gundola and integral GSH 23 mm.
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Old 21st August 2019, 17:35   #683
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Kanchan Sir while you are correct, I am not wrong either.
Sure. Sorry if my post conveyed the opposite meaning.

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Originally Posted by PGA View Post

AFAIK the aircraft which came to First Supersonics were only for conversion purpose and went back to USSR. They never formed in the order of battle for the IAF.
No.28 Sqdn, aptly called, "First Supersonics" flew in the 1965 war with the six Type 74 MiG-21F-13s & four Type 76 MiG-21PFs. They had detachments based in Ambala and Pathankot. It was during a PAF F-86 raid on Pathankot that two MiG-21PFs were destroyed on the ground (I have the serial numbers somewhere in my notes and I am pretty sure they were BC8XX series serial numbers).

In the 1965 war, there was a particular CAP mission flown by 28 Sqdn where the CO, Wg. Cdr Wollen, flying a MiG-21PF (which did not have an internal gun). He fired both his highly unreliable K-13 IRMs on a PAF F-86. Both missed and the frustrated pilot wanted to ram the F-86 with his MiG-21. I quote the story below
Quote:
Wg. Cdr. M.S.D. Wollen, CO, and Sqn. Ldr. Mukerjee were both flying at 16,000 feet altitude listening to the radio traffic. On being directed by RT, Wollen flew his MiG to a lower level along with his wingman, and as he entered the engagement area, he noticed two Sabres cross his path. He pulled his MiG in a tight turn, so tight, that Mukerjee lost sight of Wollen, who was now chasing the Sabre all alone.

Wollen got a lock on his Sabre and fired one of his K-13s, which sped along and exploded just ahead of the Sabre. The Sabre pilot was now alerted, and a frantic chase ensued. Wollen fired his second and last K-13. But by now both the Sabre and the MiG were at very low level. The K-13 missile, once fired, falls for a brief second before its rocket motor starts and chasing the target. In this case, the missile fell and fired itself into the ground. Now Wollen was left with no missiles or guns chasing the Sabre. Frustrated as he was, he engaged reheat and zoomed over the head of the Sabre, barely controlling the temptation to ram him. He rendezvoused with Mukherjee and flew back to Pathankot.

45 Sqdn's Flt. Lt. F.J. Mehta was going thru the dispersal area, where he met a seething Wg. Cdr. Wollen. "Oh! For a 23mm, Just for a 23mm!" said Wollen, expressing his disgust for the lack of the cannon in the MiG-21PF. Mehta could do nothing but sympathise. Had he been flying the MiG-21F( which had an internal cannon) that day instead of the MiG-21PF, he sure would have got a kill
Not really sure if the Early Type 74s and Type 76s went back to Russia. After the 1965 war, No. 28 converted into the Type 77 MiG-21FLs. Atleast two Type MiG-21PFs are in India(on display, including this, identified by yours truly) and a Type 74 MiG-21F-13 is on display in some college in India.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PGA View Post

The tail chute on T-66 is mounted next to the ventral fin and not below the tail fin as visible in T-69.
Yes, Just like the MiG-21PF & MiG-21F-13. What I meant to say was that the Type 66 MiG-21U-600/US had a brake parachute container at the base of the tail fin, just like the Type 69 MiG-21UM. The Type 66 MiG-21U-400 as you said had the brake parachute in the ventral fin.

Last edited by skanchan95 : 21st August 2019 at 17:38.
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Old 21st August 2019, 20:02   #684
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Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
That is flattering but I am not worthy of such praise, Thank you. But Narayan Sir's knowledge on these matter are on a different level, that us mortals can only dream about.
Other than you the member with some serious knowledge is PGA. He writes few words but it tells me he has worked with his hands well and truly. I would not be surprised if PGA is an aeronautical maintenance engineer a class I respect deeply:-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PGA View Post
A little bit on MiG 21s, Various variants of MiG 21 with the IAF are and were:
Thanks for that list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
You forgot the Type 74 MiG-21F-13s & Type 76 MiG-21PFs that flew in the 1965 war with No. 28 Sqdn.
I didnt realize we had MiG-21PF's in service at one point. Always good to learn something new. I assume they came in as fly aways from the USSR to fill the gap till the FLs got out from HAL.
Quote:
Lastly about the basic structure of the aircraft, has more or less remained same from T-77 days, all the mods which have been carried out are mounted equipment. Perhaps easy way to explain is that these are monocoque structures and that has remained same.
Quote:
Not entirely true. The MiG-21 has been classified into four different generations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PGA View Post
Kanchan Sir while you are correct, I am not wrong either.
Quote:
The spine of the aircraft ( dorsal fuel tank) and the front canopy mentioned are part of mounted equipment, they are removable without affecting any part of the structure. Infact the aircraft doesn't have a spine it's just a collection of bulkheads.
Kanchan you are describing the differences {and your descriptions are perfectly correct and beautifully put} from the standpoint of an aviation observer and enthusiast while PGA is describing the fundamental sameness from an engineers structural point of view. Like in my ex-world the 737-600, 737-700, 737-800 and 737-900 were looked upon as essentially the same aircraft though they had differences other than just in length. PGA, Kanchan thank you for enriching us all with your valuable inputs. I really like it that the aviation threads stay sane and courteous and yet rich in knowledge sharing.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 21st August 2019 at 20:05.
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Old 21st August 2019, 21:48   #685
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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
I would not be surprised if PGA is an aeronautical maintenance engineer a class I respect deeply:-)
Sir thanks for these very kind words, it is humbling to get them from a person as illustrious as you. I appreciate your ability to hit the nail on the head on any issue, yes I worked as a maintenance man on MiGs for a decade and later for some time was involved with procurements. So have been directly or indirectly involved with some things being discussed on this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
Sure. Sorry if my post conveyed the opposite meaning.

He fired both his highly unreliable K-13 IRMs on a PAF F-86.

Atleast two Type MiG-21PFs are in India(on display, including this, identified by yours truly) and a Type 74 MiG-21F-13 is on display in some college in India.
Oh no Sir, I too was talking in lighter vein.

My knowledge is more based on the lores that go in any organisation. I still remember my instructor chastising me about R-13, he said forget about R-13 it was never with us and and even if we had it is never going into a conflict.
The tales of unreliability of R1L and RP 21 radars on T-77 and T-96 are legendary anyway.

My salute to your observation and knowledge, I have been to Deolali and never ever gave a second glance to the MiG placed there.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:07   #686
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

Although much has been discussed about the counter measures/evasive maneuvers by the Sukhois when the AAMRAM was fired at them, there is not any information on the counter measures employed by the Mig21 flown by Abhinandan. Was he not notified anything on his RWR that he has a missile lock from a F16 and did he use countermeasures /evasive maneuvers ? He fired the R73 Archer and turned around. He was hit approx 50 seconds after he fired at the F16.


Can anyone provide more information on this aspect?

Last edited by sagarpadaki : 22nd August 2019 at 10:09.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:47   #687
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On the topic of obsolete planes

How many of us are aware of the fact the Pakistan Airforce flies Chengdu J7
which is MIG 21 license produced in China with Chinese Avionics.
They have even older Mirage III with ROSE upgrade still in service.

They never cry about obsolete planes probably because not so many foreign vendors approach them seeing limited budget. This could be probable reason why they quietly accepted JF-17 Thunder at Initial Operations Clarence (IOC) stage and induced quickly in service and decided to continue integrations while it serves and have good number of JF-17s.

IAF on other hand keeps on upgrading its requirements ( GSQR) for Tejas and keeps on delaying the induction . As late as 2019 they updated the requirements calling for major changes in Canopy which would need structural changes.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:15   #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
I didnt realize we had MiG-21PF's in service at one point. Always good to learn something new. I assume they came in as fly aways from the USSR to fill the gap till the FLs got out from HAL.
Yes, the F-13s and PFs were an interim solution till the FLs deliveries started. It is widely belived that the IAF MiG-21 acquisition was a hurried response to the debacle of 1962. In fact, it was a counter to the PAF's acquisition of F-104A/Bs in 1961. License production of the new supersonic aircraft in India was an important pre-condition. Accordingly the French Mirage IIIC, English Electric Lightning and MiG-21F were evaluated. The Americans refused to offer F-104 to India. Of the three evaluations, the Mirage & Lightning were considered expensive and license production rights was also denied. The Soviets readily agreed to supply interim MiG-21Fs and PFs and gave license for production of MiG-21FLs in India. So, in August 1962 the Indian Govt entered into an agreement with USSR to license manufacture MiG-21FLs, its engine, forgings & castings, avionics, K-13 missiles in India .

Here's a brief time line of the early MiG-21s in IAF service:
1963 (September): No. 28 Sqdn formed with six Type 74 MiG-21F-13s(Srl Nos. BC816 to BC821)

1964 (January) : Two Type 74s lost in a Mid Air Collision during close formation practice for Republic day flypast (Wg Cdr MSD Wollen & Sqdn Ldr A K Mukherjee ejected and survived)

1965 (March): Six Type 76 MiG-21PFs(in CKD condition) arrive from Russia(Srl Nos. BC 822 to BC 827)

1965 (September): After a B-57 raid on Adampur, Type 74 MiG-21F-13 (Srl No. BC818) destroyed on the ground & Type 74 MiG-21F-13 (Srl No. BC816) lightly damaged (it was repaired and put back into service). At Pathankot, Type 76 MiG-21PFs BC 823 & 824 were destroyed on the ground after a PAF F-86 Raid.

Early 1966 : Type 66 MiG-21Us arrive

Late 1966/ Early 67 : First Type 77 MiG-21FLs deliveries start . No. 1 Sqdn "Tigers" first to convert, followed by No. 45 "Flying Daggers" and No. 28 "First Supersonics"(Till then No. 28 continued flying its three Type 74s, four Type 76 and Type 66 MiG-21s)

BC817 - The lone surviving Type 74 MiG-21F-13 in India -> Had a few animated discussions long time ago with Mr PVS Jagan Mohan about this particualr airframe, on whether IAF Type 74s were equipped with the second internal cannon on the port side or not. After seeing the available pics of IAF Type 74s, we came to a conclusion that unlike the early Soviet MiG-21Fs, IAF MiG-21F-13s had only one cannon on the starboard side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Kanchan you are describing the differences {and your descriptions are perfectly correct and beautifully put} from the standpoint of an aviation observer and enthusiast while PGA is describing the fundamental sameness from an engineers structural point of view. Like in my ex-world the 737-600, 737-700, 737-800 and 737-900 were looked upon as essentially the same aircraft though they had differences other than just in length. PGA, Kanchan thank you for enriching us all with your valuable inputs. I really like it that the aviation threads stay sane and courteous and yet rich in knowledge sharing.
Yes, I guess I should have been more specific. By "structure", I actually meant the way the MiG-21s were differentiated "externally:. In engineering terms, I suppose it means what you and PGA sir quoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PGA View Post
yes I worked as a maintenance man on MiGs for a decade and later for some time was involved with procurements. So have been directly or indirectly involved with some things being discussed on this thread.
Firstly, a big salute and thank you for your service. It is a matter of pride for us that former servicemen like you are a part of this forum. As a civilian, I feel the sacrifices that men and women like you make, have never been fully appreciated by us, as a country.

Secondly I feel embarassed . My attempts at giving gyaan to some one like you is like a noob student trying to teach a teacher how to teach!!!! And please, don't call me sir, now that I realise that you are much senior to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PGA View Post
I still remember my instructor chastising me about R-13, he said forget about R-13 it was never with us and and even if we had it is never going into a conflict.
The tales of unreliability of R1L and RP 21 radars on T-77 and T-96 are legendary anyway.

My salute to your observation and knowledge, I have been to Deolali and never ever gave a second glance to the MiG placed there.
Really look forward to reading about such tales.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:59   #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
On the topic of obsolete planes

How many of us are aware of the fact the Pakistan Airforce flies Chengdu J7
which is MIG 21 license produced in China with Chinese Avionics.
They have even older Mirage III with ROSE upgrade still in service.

They never cry about obsolete planes probably because not so many foreign vendors approach them seeing limited budget. This could be probable reason why they quietly accepted JF-17 Thunder at Initial Operations Clarence (IOC) stage and induced quickly in service and decided to continue integrations while it serves and have good number of JF-17s.

IAF on other hand keeps on upgrading its requirements ( GSQR) for Tejas and keeps on delaying the induction . As late as 2019 they updated the requirements calling for major changes in Canopy which would need structural changes.
Actually, The J-7/F-7 variants are reverse engineered variants of MiG-21F-13s, not license manufactured ones. In 1962, the Chinese had acquired license manufacturing rights for the MiG-21F-13s. Initial MiG-21F-13s were delivered in kits which the Chinese assembled in their factories. But they later discovered that not all documents for license manufacture of the aircraft were given to China. At around the same time, relations had started souring between China & USSR. It was during this time that China decided to reverse engineer the MG-21F-13 and call it the J-7/F-7. Thus began the J-7/F-7 production run that ended in 2013. The Chinese encountered all sorts of problems while reverse engineering but overcome them by sheer will. The lack of stronger protests by Soviet Union/Russia further encouraged the illegal reverse engineering practice which eventually led to reverse engineering of Su-27s to J-11s, Su-30s to J-16s and Su-33s to J-15. Its only a matter of time before they reverse engineer their Su-35s into J-Something!!!

As of the F-7s, the later variant delivered to the PAF - the F-7PG(based on the J-7E) is a heavily modernised variant. With its double delta wing, it is more manueverable than other J-7/MiG-21s. In fact it quite close the Bison, minus BVR capability. Inspite of being the Mirage III/V dumpyard of the world, Pakistan's uprgaded Mirages are quite capable precision munition delivery platforms. They even have a few dedicated maritime strike Mirage 5PA3s operated by the PAF and assigned to the Pakistan Navy.

The Pakistanis have to make do with what they have as they don't really have a choice because of political and economic reasons. While India has the economic might and political clout to get the IAF what they want, all procurements have been lethargic and slow because of the infamous babus and lack of vision from some govts. The lack of full support to indigenous defence projects didn't help things either. It was only after the Late Manohar Parrikar took over as the RM that things really started moving for the Tejas. The Pakistani went full steam ahead behind the JF-17, while India didn't do the same with the Tejas initially and there lies the difference. The JF-17s was still a WIP when
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Old 22nd August 2019, 15:50   #690
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Default Re: Combat Aircraft of the Indian Air Force

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Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
...there is not any information on the counter measures employed by the Mig21 flown by Abhinandan. Was he not notified anything on his RWR that he has a missile lock from a F16 and did he use countermeasures /evasive maneuvers ? He fired the R73 Archer and turned around. He was hit approx 50 seconds after he fired at the F16.
Can anyone provide more information on this aspect?
A RWR by definition is a Radar Warning Receiver - it will tell you if a radar guided air to air missile is painting your aircraft - it will usually indicate which quadrant it is coming from but not what kind of missile and may or may not be able to tell you the range. Wing Cdr Abhinandan was shot down by a passive infra red short range missile that by definition does not give out a clue of its release and is usually fired at short range taking 1 to 4 seconds to hit its target. It is the aerial warfare equivalent of a powerful pistol fitted with a silencer James Bond style. You usually do not know if a IR missile is on your tail unless your wing man happens to see it and can get a warning out to you in those few seconds. Even then it is most unlikely you will evade it.

On a different note - and pardon if I am sounding stern - in war some will get shot down and some will get hurt and killed - that is the sad truth of war. Today with aviation video games and social media it has become a fashion to over analyze a foggy rapidly changing life and death situation spiraling in three dimensions at forces of several G's and wonder why did he do this or not do this.

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Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
Yes, the F-13s and PFs were an interim solution till the FLs deliveries started.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by skanchan95 View Post
Actually, The J-7/F-7 variants are reverse engineered variants of MiG-21F-13s, not license manufactured ones. In 1962, the Chinese had acquired license manufacturing rights for the MiG-21F-13s.....
Kanchan, you rock. A treat to read your posts.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 22nd August 2019 at 15:51.
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