[dragracer567]

India weighing options in case of invasion of Taiwan (posting here due to the maritime nature of such a conflict)

According to this article, the Indian government has requested the Indian armed forces to develop options for possible responses in case of invasion of Taiwan by the PRC. This is due to discrete inquiries from the US on how India would respond in such a scenario (likely so that they can develop their own plans accordingly).

Likely options seem to include:

1) Strong statements in the event of a short and quick war (unlikely).

2) Serving as a logistics hub to provide repair and maintenance facilities for allied warships and aircraft, as well as food, fuel and medical equipment for armies resisting China.

3) In an extreme scenario being accessed, India will open a new front in the northern border potentially stretching Chinese resources (but risk a two-front war for India itself if Pakistan gets involved).

Option 2 seems most likely while option 3 is highly unlikely due to the Pakistan factor but things can escalate quickly. This really does seem like WW3!

There seems to be no scenario where the Indian Navy directly gets involved in the fighting at the Taiwan Strait.

Infact, three recently retired Indian service chiefs were recently in Taiwan (ostensibly in an unofficial capacity but it’s obvious they were sent to represent the position of the Indian military) for attending a conference and closed door dialogue with the Taiwanese government.

Seems like India won’t sit this one out like the Russia-Ukraine war.

[V.Narayan]

INS Imphal handed over to the Indian Navy

INS Imphal the 3rd of the Project 15B, 7400 tonne, guided missile destroyers was handed over to the IN.

https://www.news18.com/india/ins-imp...f-8627359.html

A well proportioned and handsome ship with a heavy armament and some stealth stitched into the design. The only area of risk are the Ukraine origin gas turbines. Next to commission will be INS Surat. Other ships of this sub-class are INS Visakhapatnam & INS Mormugao

File photos of Project 15B destroyers for illustration only


INS Mormugao


First of this sub-class, INS Visakhapatnam showing her forward armament suite.


INS Chennai {Project 15A}on top showing her layout to good effect. Note the classic layout of main armament {76mm gun, Brahmos missiles, Barak 8 SAMs, ASW rocket launchers} in the front, centre section devoted to bridge, funnels, CIWS and torpedo tubes and aft section carrying the hangar and two ASW helicopters. She is sailing alongside 6200 tonne JS Ikazuchi of the Japanese JMSDF.



INS Beas to be re-engined from steam to diesel

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com...le67426817.ece


Read in the papers that the Brahmaputra class INS Beas is to be taken onto the dockyard to be re-engined - steam turbines and boilers out, diesels in. This is the first time a re-engining project will be undertaken by the IN. I am curious to learn, once it is made public, as to which diesels will be installed. This sounds like tearing the gut of a ship - boilers, turbines, gearbox, shaft, propellors - I guess all will need replacement. Will INS Brahmaputra & INS Betwa follow suit?

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Read in the papers that the Brahmaputra class INS Beas is to be taken onto the dockyard to be re-engined - steam turbines and boilers out, diesels in. This is the first time a re-engining project will be undertaken by the IN. I am curious to learn, once it is made public, as to which diesels will be installed. This sounds like tearing the gut of a ship - boilers, turbines, gearbox, shaft, propellors - I guess all will need replacement. Will INS Brahmaputra & INS Betwa follow suit?

That’s quite interesting. These ships don’t seem particularly old with the last one commissioned as late as 2005 - barely 4 years before the Shivalik class ships rolled in. I wonder why they came with steam turbines in first place when diesel engines or gas turbines were the norm in the new century.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

That’s quite interesting. These ships don’t seem particularly old with the last one commissioned as late as 2005 - barely 4 years before the Shivalik class ships rolled in. I wonder why they came with steam turbines in first place when diesel engines or gas turbines were the norm in the new century.

These were planned as a follow on to the Godavari trio. To spread manufacturing, they were built in Garden Reach, Kolkata instead of Mazagon Docks, Mumbai. The ability of Garden Reach to build well and build on time is evident from the fact that the first INS Brahmaputra took 11 years to build from 1989 to 2000! Due to self-inflicted inefficieny and incompetence the second of the class INS Betwa was laid down only 5 years later and took 10 years to build {1994 to 2004}. Similarly, INS Beas commissioned in 2004/2005 after 8 years under construction.

India had invested a tidy sum in BHEL to build under license the Admiralty boilers and steam turbine propulsion unit. These indigenously built units only got fitted to, IIRC, 4 of the Nilgiri class and 3 of the Godavari class. The Brahmaputra were a modernized version of Godavari which in turn were enlarged versions of the Nilgiri* class and it didn't make sense to change the powerplant entailing an almost complete redesign of the ship and subsequent loss of time. Also, these were locally built in an era when we were short of forex and had limited budgets to buy expensive diesels and gas turbines plus this gave business to a local company (BHEL). I wish we'd built 6 of them but those were days of extreme budget pressures. IIRC these were India's last home built steam turbine ships.

*As I never tire of stating the IN and its excellent Corp of Constructors followed a step by step approach instead of going headlong at first attempt to build a superlative product (Tejas, Arjun MBT). We see it in the Nilgiri - Vindhyagiri - Godavari - Brahmaputra sequence and then again in the Delhi - Kolkata - Visakhapatnam sequence.

Link to old thread here - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/comme...ahmaputra.html (Indian Navy - A Shipbuilders Navy: INS Nilgiri, INS Godavari & INS Brahmaputra)


File photos of INS Beas.

[V.Narayan]

A first for the Indian Navy: Woman officer to take over command of warship INS Trinkat


https://indianexpress.com/article/in...-ship-9050386/

The Navy has appointed the first woman commanding officer in a naval ship in line with the Navy’s philosophy of “all roles-all ranks” to deploying women in the service, Navy Chief Admiral R Hari Kumar said on Friday. The officer, a Lieutenant Commander, would be commanding INS Trinkat, a fast attack craft based in the western seaboard.

Patrol Boats like INS Trinkat of which we operate ~46 are used for the very important role of constantly patrolling our high risk sea borders with for example Pakistan or the seas off Andaman & Nicobar. They are typically armed with an indigenous 30mm cannon and up to 2 12.7mm heavy machine guns to scare off trouble makers.

Photo of a INS Trinkat class of Patrol Boats

[dragracer567]

Ranks in the Indian Navy will be renamed to reflect Indian culture to "to erase Colonial military lineage".

PM Modi told the gathering that the nation is moving forward, leaving the mentality of dependence behind due to the inspiration of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj. “I am happy that the New epaulettes will now have a symbol of Shivaji Maharaj’s army. I had the opportunity to connect the Naval flag with the heritage of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj,” he narrated in his bid..

Speaking on the occasion, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh termed the unveiling of the statue of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj as a moment of privilege. “Chhatrapati Shivaji’s life continues to serve as an inspiration to everyone. He was a statesman who foresaw the future possibilities. He recognised the relevance of the Navy and added a new chapter to India’s rich naval tradition. In line with the Prime Minister’s call to get rid of the colonial mindset, the new ensign was adopted by the Navy, which is inspired by the glorious legacy of Chhatrapati Shivaji,” he said.

Indian Navy Chief Admiral R Hari Kumar, in his speech, acknowledged Shivaji’s foresight in investing in sea power. “The PM commissioned our indigenous aircraft carrier last year and the new insignia of the Navy was also unveiled. The new insignia is inspired by the royal seal of Shivaji Maharaj. After 300 years of subjugation, Chhatrapati Shivaji carved out ‘Swarajya’. He had the foresight to invest in sea power. Sindhudurg Fort here is the testament to his important message, that is, one who controls the seas is powerful,” Navy Chief said.

I don't know enough to comment on this, though I'm assuming Hindi names will be used instead of admiral, petty officer etc like in the Army where names like Sepoy, Naik etc. are used. It won't be easy to do the same for the Air Force though given aerial warfare was very much introduced by the colonizing Brits (to the best of my knowledge).

[ads11]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Ranks in the Indian Navy will be renamed to reflect Indian culture to "to erase Colonial military lineage".


I don't know enough to comment on this, though I'm assuming Hindi names will be used instead of admiral, petty officer etc like in the Army where names like Sepoy, Naik etc. are used.

Given how moving forward the IN is going to be the service most involved in working with other navies, this is sure going to throw in an added protocol headache for overseas officers to make sense of the new replacement naming structure. Trust whatever rubric still has the old ranking nomenclature next to the new ones to become highly valued tools then.

Again, just feels like a bit of a jingoistic exercise given I hardly doubt there was much of a furore to rename ranks.. Also I wonder what feeds into which historic state entity is chosen as the reference point for being the yardstick for these renaming exercises especially when applied in a pan-Indian context?

It won't be easy to do the same for the Air Force though given aerial warfare was very much introduced by the colonizing Brits (to the best of my knowledge).

I'd be remiss if I didn't say I'm curious to see and hear the mental gymnastics involved with renaming Air Force ranks based on pre-colonial historical precedent. Not like there are far more pressing issues at hand right?

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

Again, just feels like a bit of a jingoistic exercise given I hardly doubt there was much of a furore to rename ranks.. Also I wonder what feeds into which historic state entity is chosen as the reference point for being the yardstick for these renaming exercises especially when applied in a pan-Indian context?

I tried not to spell this out, least it gets too political/controversial.

For example, I’d argue that the Cholas would have as much stake on India’s maritime legacy as the Marathas. But then again, I guess the descendants of the Cholas don’t vote a certain way.

[V.Narayan]

Team BHP rules and basic good manners prevent me from expressing my true views. I'd end up sounding like Captain Haddock of Tintin comics fame. They may change the nomenclature of the Other Ranks which I am told were not titles our men could relate to - for example Able Seaman or Petty Officer or Master Chief Class II. I hope they do not tinker with the officer ranks. For example the word Captain has a certain historical positive appeal in almost all languages which trounces Uup Jahaz Adhikari other than these being internationally recognized and understood ranks. Over the years our uniforms and epaulettes for senior sailors have evolved to meet our local cultural needs. These initiatives came from within the Navy. All past Governments did not think it fit to interfere or politicize these things. For example our sailors do not wear the bell bottoms, or caps or scarves like sailors of almost all Western navies including the Russian do. It was changed in the 1960s. The epaulettes we use are aesthetic and simple and over the years through the Royal Navy the design and its aesthetic appeal has been honed to be timeless much like some cars like the Porche 911. When CEOs of companies are lost for a strategy they tinker with the corporate logos and tag lines. When politicians cannot address the big issues of the day they tinker with names of roads, towns......

What about changing the titles and designations in the Indian Railways. A title is meant to be something that all understand unfortunately we are tinkering with what we should not. After all the head of the district is still called the District Collector or better still Collector Sahib.

[skanchan95]

I agree with what all of you have to say.

The Navy has far more urgent needs in equipment that require attention than this exercise which is a bid to get rid of the so called "Ghulaami ki Maansikta". Like it or not, the modern Indian Army, Navy and Air Force, owe their structure and discipline to the Brits!!!

I wonder what about those men who fought wars under the IN flag in 1965 and 1971 have to say about it!!! Where they Ghulaams of the "Empire"? The modern Indian Navy, or for that matter all three wings of forces, are full of time honoured traditions that should not be touched, but when you let politicians meddle with the forces, it is bound to happen.

Part of the problem is the men at the top do not have the spine to stand up to the political masters and their foolish decisions or speak against it. We all know how politicians on both sides of the political spectrum like to use the forces and their achievements or losses for their own political goals. We all know how the Balakot airstrike was used to gain political mileage.

Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw had once said - I wonder whether those of our political masters who have been put in charge of the defence of the country can distinguish a mortar from a motor; a gun from a howitzer; a guerrilla from a gorilla, although a great many resemble the latter.- It stands true even today!!!

He was known to stand his ground, even if it meant antagonizing powerful people like the Defence Minister or the PM. He also once said referring to personnel who are submissive to political leadership, - A Yes Man is a dangerous man. He is a menace. He will go very far. He can become a minister, a secretary or a Field Marshall, but he can never become a leader, nor ever be respected. He will be used by his superiors, disliked by his colleagues and despised by his subordinates. So, discard the Yes Man.

Sadly there are no Sam Bahadurs anymore. It is also sad that a decorated pilot and a patriot like Admiral Arun Prakash is questioned about his morals and patriotism just because he raises some uncomfortable questions regarding the political meddling with the Navy.

[dragracer567]

Drone strikes ship off the coast of India

The MV Chem Pluto - a Liberian flagged ship operated by a Dutch entity and owned by a Japanese company (and somehow linked to Israel according to the BBC) has been struck by a drone off the coast of India. The ship was sailing from Jubail, Saudi Arabia to Mangalore, India. Further, an attack drone also came close to a Norwegian-flagged tanker, MV Blaamanen, while another tanker, the Indian-flagged MV Saibaba, was “hit by a one-way attack drone with no injuries reported”. Targetting of Indian flagged ship is significant. This comes among a spite of drone & missile attacks on ships in the Red Sea mostly by Houthis - supported by Iran in response to Israel's rather disproportion response in Gaza to the terrorist attacks on October 7th. However, this is the first attack so far away from the Red Sea, inside India's EEZ. While India itself is not part of the US led coalition of 10 countries to mitigate these attacks, India has deployed 2 destroyers - INS Kochi & INS Kolkata in the Red Sea.

As for the Chem Pluto, the crew are safe and established contact with Dornier aircraft from the Coast Guard (and I believe the Navy too). The newly inducted destroyer INS Murmagao is headed towards the location of the drone strike while the ICGS Vikram of the Indian Coast Guard is escorting the ship to Mumbai.

"The Coast Guard Dornier aircraft has sanitised the area and established communication with Chem Pluto. The vessel has started making way towards Mumbai post undertaking damage assessment and repairs on its power generation systems," it said.

"The vessel is likely to enter Mumbai and sought escort assistance due to steering issues. Indian Coast Guard Ship Vikram will be escorting the ship during its passage. The Indian Coast Guard Operations Centre is monitoring the situation closely," it said.

The Pentagon seems to believe that the attacks were directed from Iran which makes more sense given the distance from Yemen (as with the case with the attacks on Saudi ARAMCO infrastructure). What is worrysome is the fact that Iran is supposed to be a friendly country and them attacking international traffic inside India's EEZ is just outrageous. I assume that the MEA will have to jump through hoops to avoid an escalation or worse, having to pick a side. The Gaza situation is getting worryingly close to a potential spillover into the wider Middle East going up to the Indian West Coast which means we can't afford to be mere spectators any longer.

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4

The MV Chem Pluto

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Drone strikes ship off the coast of India

I feel there is a much bigger game being played here. Iran, probably at the behest of Russia, wants to the drag the US and its allies into a war in Yemen, thereby weakening and diverting attention from the western support to Ukraine.

Iran is not a saint. It's support for terrorism worldwide is well known. It is against every nation that has voiced support of Israel actions in Gaza. Given the choice, it will not hesitate in harming Indian interests - Indian investment in Chabahar not withstanding.

If it was a mistake, hope it is diffused diplomatically. But if it was deliberate, as you rightly said, if this escalates, India will have to take a tough stand to protect our maritime trade interests.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

I agree with what all of you have to say.

The Navy has far more urgent needs in equipment that require attention than this exercise which is a bid to get rid of the so called "Ghulaami ki Maansikta". Like it or not, the modern Indian Army, Navy and Air Force, owe their structure and discipline to the Brits!!!

If getting rid of Ghulami ki maansikta is so urgent, let us get back to dinghys , yachts, stop flying jet airplanes, because steam power was invented by the British wasnt it, as was the jet engine. And while we are at it, lets stop communicating in English. Because we are after all, “अश्व शक्ति समूह "

[DIY410]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

I feel there is a much bigger game being played here. Iran, probably at the behest of Russia, wants to the drag the US and its allies into a war in Yemen, thereby weakening and diverting attention from the western support to Ukraine.

Iran is not a saint. It's support for terrorism worldwide is well known. It is against every nation that has voiced support of Israel actions in Gaza. Given the choice, it will not hesitate in harming Indian interests - Indian investment in Chabahar not withstanding.

If it was a mistake, hope it is diffused diplomatically. But if it was deliberate, as you rightly said, if this escalates, India will have to take a tough stand to protect our maritime trade interests.

Russian oil comes via Suez Canal to India and Chinese goods going to EU also goes via this route. So I highly doubt Russia and China would agree to this. Russia is winning on the battelfield in Ukraine, they are just waiting for a new US president which will mean no more US funded wars.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by DIY410

Russian oil comes via Suez Canal to India and Chinese goods going to EU also goes via this route. So I highly doubt Russia and China would agree to this. Russia is winning on the battelfield in Ukraine, they are just waiting for a new US president which will mean no more US funded wars.

I doubt the Chinese have anything to do with this, they would never do anything that would jeopardize international trade. They know that their prosperity is dependent on having open and free sea lanes (except for the South China Sea) which is offcourse ironically guaranteed by the US Navy. The attacks in the Red Sea certainly has made the Chinese nervous though they can't risk deploying their ships given that Iran is a very close anti-West ally. The Chinese literally spelled it out saying "China stands for protecting the safety of international sea lanes and against causing disturbance to civilian ships. We believe relevant parties, especially major countries with influence, need to play a constructive and responsible role in keeping the shipping lanes safe in the Red Sea." - putting the onus on the Americans to do the policing for them.

But the Russians really do have a knack for suicidal decisions these days.