[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by ads11

On the topic of CDS, quick question - is there any written rule, or even unwritten one, in place that says that the CDS holder will rotate between the three services? I'm not sure if the similar Chairman of the Joint Chiefs position in the US has any such rule, unwritten or otherwise, that sets in the rotation between the services.

No such rule as yet. Only merit.

[dragracer567]

Sri Lanka's Hambantota port will have a new visitor next week which is a surprise in itself given that the port is empty most of the time. This visit is more surprising as the visiting vessel is the Yuan Wang 5 - a Chinese "missile and satellite tracking vessel" - codeword for spy ship. The ship apparently has a range of 750 km (probably more) which means that it would bring most of India's strategic assets and installations in South India pertaining to space, defense and nuclear energy under its surveillance. Placing such assets in South India has always allowed India to prevent snooping by its "friendly" neighbors to the North but seems like the Chinese have found a workaround.

It is quite appalling that the Sri Lankans are going through with this after taking over $4 billion of Indian aid over the past 5 months alone (here's hoping that the aid atleast bought the goodwill of the Sri Lankan people). I guess nothing can shake the leverage of those Chinese loans.

Meanwhile, another neighbor - Myanmar, the one we least think about is also increasingly under the patronage of China since the Chinese have given the junta the legitimacy they seek. India had gifted a Kilo-class submarine during better times - sunk costs (would've served better to gift these to Vietnam or the Philippines).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMZfM1eMvHs

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Soft discussions to consider repairing USN ships in India shipyards

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/us-n...s-here-2883734

Could be an outcome of the 2+2 meeting this week. If this were to happen it is a very big mental leap in proximity to the USN and USA Defence establishment. At the height of Indo-Soviet friendship the IN never had a single exercise with the Soviet Navy out of choice and of course repairing their ships or offering refueling rights was out of the question. The Soviets did seek refueling rights several times but we had to be careful to walk the balance then much as we are doing now (on Ukraine)

Turns out this has gone from soft discussions to being fully operationalized. The USNS Charles Drew - a US Navy Lewis and Clark class dry cargo ship will undergo 'repairs and allied services at the L&T's shipyard in Kattupali, Chennai who were awarded the contract by the US Navy. This is significant as this will be the first time ever that a US Navy ship is being repaired in India. Please refer to Mr. Narayan's post quoted above to understand the significance of this event, apparently, even the Soviets never enjoyed this perk!

The MoD has stated this as a huge boost for 'Make in India' and rightly so. Getting contracts from demanding customers like the US Navy should bring in contracts from other military and private players as well!

Meanwhile, the Americans exercising so close to the India-China border should give the Chinese some sleepless nights as well. After a long time, the Chinese are on the back foot, first in Taiwan and now on their Western border with India.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Sri Lanka's Hambantota port will have a new visitor next week which is a surprise in itself given that the port is empty most of the time. This visit is more surprising as the visiting vessel is the Yuan Wang 5 - a Chinese "missile and satellite tracking vessel" - codeword for spy ship. The ship apparently has a range of 750 km (probably more) which means that it would bring most of India's strategic assets and installations in South India pertaining to space, defense and nuclear energy under its surveillance. Placing such assets in South India has always allowed India to prevent snooping by its "friendly" neighbors to the North but seems like the Chinese have found a workaround.

And regarding this, turns out that the MEA have played their cards right! The Lankans have asked for the ship's visit to be deferred though not canceled outright to avoid pissing off the Chinese. Well, it's not easy to get wedged between two Asian superpowers!

[V.Narayan]

^^^^^
Great post dragracer567. This repair job reflects an acknowledged jump in trust levels on both sides more so on the U.S. side. The dial has turned a full 180 degrees. Our proximity to the US Navy has gone past the highest apogee our relationship with the Soviet Navy. We are now big enough to hold our own with them. And regardless of political views the US Navy is a very professional organization to learn from.

Many in India are nostalgic for the old USSR days. But threats have both changed and become substantially more sinister. Resources and potential alliances have changed too. Fortunately for India the MoEA and MoD have a pragmatic and long term view of India's threats and allies (full time and conditional).

The repair job, the joint exercises in the North are well timed for a reason. The repair job is symbolic and meant to signal. And the Tu-160 news if true means Russia wants to maintain a balance with us v/s China. Putin, better than us, knows the perils of becoming a vassal to China. He will work to balance his strategic dependence on Xi Jinping. And India remains the last major country willing to be open friends with Russia.

[Gannu_1]

Guys, this is slightly off-topic since the thread is on Indian Naval ships.

For the first time ever, a US Naval ship has come to India (L&T Kattupalli, Chennai) for repairs. The Defence Secretary Dr Ajay Kumar, VCNS (Vice Chief of Naval Staff) of Indian Navy, S N Ghormade and others were present when USNS Charles Drew arrived at the yard and a small function was hosted.

















Source

Quite a proud and historic moment for us and Indian shipbuilding/ship repairs.

Hope they would let us visit the ship.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Meanwhile, another neighbor - Myanmar, the one we least think about is also increasingly under the patronage of China since the Chinese have given the junta the legitimacy they seek. India had gifted a Kilo-class submarine during better times - sunk costs (would've served better to gift these to Vietnam or the Philippines).

It's pretty disheartening how rapidly Myanmar has backslid to the days of the junta again (they've started executing political dissidents again - I feel like it won't be long before the government starts getting hit with major sanctions from the democratic bloc, which in turn will only drive the junta closer to China). I can't blame India for gifting the boat, they were operating on the information at the time, and I guess they wanted to take the optimistic look at the country trajectory. What worries me is any future move to curry favour by gifting assets in such a manner will get railroaded after the Myanmar experience. It's never easy to map out where exactly circumstances might lead a country to, you have to make a well informed guess, hopefully the right lessons are learnt from this.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

[url="https://theprint.in/india/in-a-first-us-naval-ship-arrives-in-indian-shipyard-for-repair/1073477/"]Turns out this has gone from soft discussions to being fully operationalized.

I'm a bit amazed at how fast this all came about on the heels of the first stories breaking ground about the idea being mooted. Clearly discussions were ongoing long before those early stories. Hopefully this is a portent of stronger relations to come. Wonder how many other countries have shipyards rated to repair USN vessels, Congress is loathe to ever give up lucrative repair contracts in domestic yards so clearly this is seen as part of a much broader objective wrt India ties and US goals in the Indo-Pacific.

And regarding this, turns out that the MEA have played their cards right! The Lankans have asked for the ship's visit to be deferred though not canceled outright to avoid pissing off the Chinese. Well, it's not easy to get wedged between two Asian superpowers!

Good news for now re the Chinese SIGINT ship, though I feel this will soon become much more the norm (seeing PLAN SIGINT vessels in the IOR). As you said, it isn't easy for a small nation like Sri Lanka finding itself caught between much larger partners in India & China. Does the IN have any similar SIGINT vessels?

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

^^^^^
Great post dragracer567. This repair job reflects an acknowledged jump in trust levels on both sides more so on the U.S. side. The dial has turned a full 180 degrees. Our proximity to the US Navy has gone past the highest apogee our relationship with the Soviet Navy.

It's interesting that the Soviets never got that far. Pretty significant moment indeed for India US ties. Opens up a lot of possibilities in the naval domain between the two. I can't help but imagine that in France, they'll be rather weary at the implications it could possibly have on the ongoing carrier tender.

The repair job, the joint exercises in the North are well timed for a reason. The repair job is symbolic and meant to signal.

Can't help but crack a wry smile at the timing of the shipyard news coming on the heels of the joint exercises - I wonder what elements in the armed forces, both at the Pentagon and South Bloc, work with their colleagues at the State Dept. and MEA to get the timing aligned for major announcements. I guess it helps for India that the PLA is fully engrossed in sabre rattling over Taiwan at the moment.

And the Tu-160 news if true means Russia wants to maintain a balance with us v/s China.

Oh I must've missed this, what news is there re- the Tu-160? Is Putin actually looking to offer it to India?! Definitely agreed that Putin recognises the risk of becoming a junior partner to China as it would fully turn the already angsty extreme right wing elements in Russia against him (they're already salty at him for being too soft (!?!) on the whole Ukraine debacle! Which I think tells you all you need to know about how extreme they are). I'd also wager that the pragmatist in Putin will recognise that Indo-Russian ties will have to evolve as well (that's obviously taking the optimistic approach given the revanchist slide he's taken currently).

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

Good news for now re the Chinese SIGINT ship, though I feel this will soon become much more the norm (seeing PLAN SIGINT vessels in the IOR). As you said, it isn't easy for a small nation like Sri Lanka finding itself caught between much larger partners in India & China. Does the IN have any similar SIGINT vessels?

There are a couple of ships listed:

INS Dhruv "Missile Range Instrumentation vessel"

INS Sagardhwani "Research Vessel"

4 Sandhayak class "Survey Vessels"

INS Makar "Survey Vessel"

Same to assume that these all ships have atleast some SIGINT capabilities, especially the INS Dhruv which was inducted in 2021.

[V.Narayan]

@dragracer567 and ads11 thank you for your informative posts and analysis. @Gannu_1 thank you for this photos - a treat!.

My rambling thoughts in general:-

The repair job of 11-days is not likely to be a major one and could have been done at the US Navy facility at Singapore. Paraphrasing what you all have said the ship has been sent to L&T India to clearly cement an important relationship and make it more trusting and strategic than before and to of course signal to the Chinese and other players in the region including Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Myanmar. The choice of ship is also interesting - a large vessel, 40,000 tonnes - so not a minor matter. And because these are baby steps they went for a Military Sealift Command ship and not a fleet destroyer.

The Soviets were very keen to exercise with us and use our ports in the 1968 to 1989 period. We politely refused each time other than for diplomatic port visits because the impression we got was that we would get subsumed by them and be seen as too far left of our non-aligned stance. Though I'll always give them credit and kudos for (a) equipping us with the best they could give; and (b) genuinely assist us at a technical level to understand how to use and repair the complex equipment and become fully at ease with guided missiles, homing torpedoes, gas turbines, nuclear submarines et al. With the Americans today in 2022 we are in a far better position to hold our own and our military importance to them is way heavier than our value to the USSR ever was. Our value to the USSR was strategic and in terms of their global positioning. It wasn't military.

Coming to SIGINT ships. Every ship above a certain size say a frigate/corvette is equipped for recce and signal intelligence or electronic surveillance. Our 2nd dedicated ship for this role will be the 11,000 tonne INS Anvesh, pictured below, currently on sea trials. The first was INS Dhruv commissioned in 2021. The PLA Navy has several including using UUVs {Unmanned Underwater Vessels} and USVs {Unmanned Surface Vessels} in large numbers. The Chinese ship they planned to send to Sri Lanka is, as most of you know, designed for tracking and monitoring rocket launches of other nations. One of the most vital research and monitoring needed is of the oceans to feed submarines operations - sea bed especially that less than 400 fathoms, salinity, underwater currents, underwater sound propagation near enemy ports and at choke points. For that different vessels are used.

Sri Lanka gave approval for the PLAN spy vessel to visit Hambatota after their change of Prime Minster, after their President fled and after they had received tonnes of aid from us to save their skins! Clearly our security needs don't register within their bureaucracy. Possibly some key bureaucrats are 'beholden' to the Chinese or genuinely harbour pro-China sentiments. They are mis-interpreting our 'Neighbours First' foreign policy.


INS Anvesh on sea trials

India also operates the new INS Dhruv for missile tracking. I could not locate an accurate & download-able photo of the ship. As an aside every other news article of its commissioning has a different photo. Some have photos of US Navy and French Navy equivalents. Hence my wariness of journalists.


The ~24,000 tonne Chinese Yuan Wang class of vessels one of which was to dock in Sri Lanka.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

And regarding this, turns out that the MEA have played their cards right! The Lankans have asked for the ship's visit to be deferred though not canceled outright to avoid pissing off the Chinese. Well, it's not easy to get wedged between two Asian superpowers!

Spoke too soon I guess. It seems that the vessel will indeed be docking at the Hambantota port. Really curious what strings the Chinese pulled - the Chinese certainly have a lot of strings to pull when it comes to Sri Lanka - 10% of their debt infact. Pakistan's PNS Taimur entered Sri Lanka yesterday though that's probably less of a concern - being a conventional frigate.

The Sri Lankans claim that the Chinese ship will have to switch off its radars and other tracking equipment but how exactly can Sri Lanka enforce this? Indian ELINT aircraft will certainly be looking for signals coming out of the ship (and vice-versa I guess).

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The flags and uniforms and ranks and traditions of the armed forces are best left to them to decide. The armed forces are an independent society (and a great one at that) within the wider Indian society. The reason they are considered an asset of the last resort is because the civilian Govt needs them to be functional and effective when all else has broken down and stay apolitical at all times. So it is best to leave them insulated from political interference and views. Trying to look different for the sake of it does not change anything.

The Navy is proud about having fought under this flag in WW2 and before that in WW1. The need for insulation from our political jingoism is highlighted best by what happened to the officers of the INA (Indian National Army) in 1947 when Nehru insisted they be re-appointed back into the Army. Carriappa point blank refused. He said, and rightly so, that once you have taken an oath to serve the Army, follow the flag and obey the civilian Govt you cannot break it (regardless of the overwhelming situation of even the country's independence) and then expect to be taken back. Nehru, a proud man, baulked at this push back. Carriappa asked him if he (Nehru) would like him (Carriappa) to not follow Nehru's orders (as a PM) just because Carriappa personally had a different political view on a major subject. Nehru understood the need here to keep political views and symbols out of the armed forces. Sardar Patel advised him likewise. PS: I am a greater admirer of Netaji than of Nehru. Another example from a different time. In 1977 when the Congress and Indira Gandhi were toppled we had a non-Congress Govt for the first time. The then PM, Morarji Desai, wanted to bring some of his favourites into the armed forces - no rum, ceremonial swords should be changed from straight to curved (Shivaji style) and some other petty tinkering. Fortunately better sense prevailed and the IAS explained to him that there are bigger issues to solve for.

Quoting a very old post, but looks like Government has heard my request




Source: https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status...vvwpgeStnfv0sw

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Quoting a very old post, but looks like Government has heard my request

Attachment 2352752


Source: https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status...vvwpgeStnfv0sw

A sad day indeed that we need to tinker with flags we fought under to satisfy jingoism and play to the gallery of politics. I presume there are far bigger and more complex issues in the IN that need addressing and need the mindshare of the management. Are we so bereft of our own confidence and own place in the sun that we need to tinker with the so called George Cross to establish our independence. This is like politicians changing names of towns and roads when they can't address bigger problems. A great pity in my opinion. Why not change the ranks, the epaulettes, the uniforms. These things are a part of the deep traditions of the Armed Forces and act as a binding force that civilians don't understand. Tinkering with these in my view is shallowness.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

A sad day indeed that we need to tinker with flags we fought under to satisfy jingoism and play to the gallery of politics.

Fully agree sir. Just to satisfy the ego of a few hyper nationalists and jingoists, such theatrics are being done. While they are at it, why don't they re-name Army regiments and Air Force squadrons that have British roots as well

The cluelessness of these politicians reminds me of Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw's quote -

"I wonder whether those of our political masters who have been put in charge of the defence of the country can distinguish a mortar from a motor; a gun from a howitzer; a guerrilla from a gorilla, although a great many resemble the latter.”

The political class has always been clueless about the Military and it's traditions and the current ones are equally insensitive.

The Armed Forces have bigger issues to contend with and these fellows want the Ensign to be changed!!! Pitiful state of affairs.

[Foxbat]

I beg to differ from the majority opinion here, agree with Shiv Aroor on this one:

"I'm not saying we can erase our past. But let's not kid ourselves. India has a maritime tradition that stretches centuries before the British. It is both appropriate and just that the Indian Navy ensign says goodbye to St George's Cross."


Sourced from Twitter: https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status...Nb1f9F4nNDVbzw

[Gansan]

The maritime tradition stretches to a time when the British were living in caves. Roman coins were dug up in Pondicherry and Tamil kings coinage was dug up in Rome. There was maritime trade even before Roman times. There are records of a blue water navy (for the time) at least a thousand years old if not more. I don't see why the ensign should not be changed.

[ads11]

I have to say that this whole naval ensign change again is lip service tokenism frankly. It's hardly an important issue. It it really had been, why'd it take this long to change, a lot of things would've changed in the early years after independence. Fact it didn't then, when patriotic fervour was at its peak probably suggests that there were far bigger problems that needed fixing (rightly so).

Also, this isn't the first time we've had this whole circus. It was changed in the mid-2000s but correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the change rejected on practical grounds for not being very legible/distinguishable compared to the erstwhile St George's Cross bearing ensign? If so, it was clear that for practical utility the old ensign was preferred, why this sudden song and dance about changing it? If anything it just feels like jingoistic lip service in the face of much more pressing structural issues that would benefit from the mindshare this is earning.

Originally Posted by Gansan

..to a time when the British were living in caves..

Just wanted to caution against reductive rhetoric like this, generally speaking (this is in no way directed specifically at you Gansan, I know you mean well, just figured I'd point out a reservation I have). As we know now, this thinking where we "other" a different culture that doesn't align with our own framework of what classifies as sophisticated or advanced, was the very same rhetoric that perpetuated a lot of colonisation over the years, going all the way back to the Romans in fact. We know now that often the civilisations that were traditionally viewed as primitive were in fact sophisticated and multi-layered, just in different ways to what we thought of. Think of how now, research is showing that African culture was incredibly sophisticated but because it didn't conform to the prototype Western Europeans were familiar with, evangelists and slavers were able to exploit these "savages" because it was palatable to audiences back home and not reprehensible (like it really should've been). It was the same with what happened on the subcontinent. Inhuman treatment wasn't given the requisite outrage in the UK because the discourse had already been successful in other-ing Indians.