[W16rocks]

The Indian Navy may not be a behemoth but it sure is progressing, as an avid reader of defence discussions, I would say the commissioning of an indigenous Aircraft carrier is a moment of pride for all of us. I believe the time taken to make it was long, but along the way we have learnt an invaluable skill and I hope it can be utilised to make many more such Aircraft carriers with greater capacity and efficiency in a shorter span of time. I believe making such projects in India would promote growth and development of the industries which will help India become a defence superpower and also a defence exporter helping us economically, also the current regime at the centre has been more than supportive to make in India defence procurement which should motivate the private sector industries to also get in this race and do higher R and D for better designs and development in our Defence sector which is currently only run by government suppliers like HAL and DRDO.

[sukhbirST]

Could not stop myself from commenting, how proud we all should be, to have built all new Vikrant. The old one was non AC and only few privileged spaces had AC. One used to sweat even during a bath. Good ventilation and proper air circulation only helped, though at some places, it was not possible. Most of the sailors and officers slept in open at designated places and that too at night only. Last few years saw many small incidents where steam leak used to be a major problem. Still remember the last fire onboard where we lost two crew, one of them being a doctor (from IAF) who came for sailing for the first time. He just went the wrong way when smoke engulfed that part of ship. Tells us that personal safety should be a key focus area as it is being discussed now in the forum. Whatever we might say, building a ship is still a complicated/complex thing and that too an aircraft carrier. A start like this can take us anywhere, just look at TATA, who could have thought about current design of cars including EVs when Nano did not do well in sales.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by sukhbirST

Could not stop myself from commenting, how proud we all should be, to have built all new Vikrant. The old one was non AC and only few privileged spaces had AC. One used to sweat even during a bath. Good ventilation and proper air circulation only helped, though at some places, it was not possible. Most of the sailors and officers slept in open at designated places and that too at night only. Last few years saw many small incidents where steam leak used to be a major problem. Still remember the last fire onboard where we lost two crew, one of them being a doctor (from IAF) who came for sailing for the first time. He just went the wrong way when smoke engulfed that part of ship. Tells us that personal safety should be a key focus area as it is being discussed now in the forum. Whatever we might say, building a ship is still a complicated/complex thing and that too an aircraft carrier. A start like this can take us anywhere, just look at TATA, who could have thought about current design of cars including EVs when Nano did not do well in sales.

Always so fascinating to hear first hand experiences from people who've been on board! Please share more when you can!

I guess the requirement to limit the spread of fire makes most vessels intrinsically stuffy environments? Incredible to think how sailors coped on a lot of vessels back in the day, not just IN, when it came to having to deal with no environmental systems as such. In later ships, even ones procured from abroad, I take it the IN made sure to include a requirement for air conditioning for eg or is that only a very recent thing with the domestically built platforms?

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by sukhbirST

Being a naval aviation veteran, had the occasion to embark both Vikrant and Viraat. Still remember my long sailings on both carriers. Ask any veteran about the two, he will definitely like Vikrant. Part of my life (younger) has been spent on both the carriers. It never looked old though ageing machinery had its own share of incidents onboard. Remember getting my(only so far) tooth extracted onboard Vikrant with the dentist sharing my name. When I looked around the old equipment , the dentist assured me all was good. Few times there were even pigeons who sailed for 45 days (got stuck onboard).Only one who has sailed on these ships know what kind of world it was. Thanks for sharing the news and am eagerly looking forward for the commissioning.

And WOW!!!sukhbirST a warm welcome to you. thank you for joining this thread. We are honoured to have a veteran like you and would love to hear your anecdotes. My father served 40 years to 1990 and that's where my amateur's interest in warships arises from. We look forward to your posts and perspectives.

Originally Posted by ads11

In later ships, even ones procured from abroad, I take it the IN made sure to include a requirement for air conditioning for eg or is that only a very recent thing with the domestically built platforms?

The first partially air conditioned ships were the old INS Vikrant and the frigates of the 'T' and 'B' series that were British design Type 12 and Type 41. From I think {but this needs verification} INS Nilgiri, Leander class, 1972 the living spaces started getting air conditioned. Today's NBC citadel requirements and need to keep electronics cool make air conditioning of large spaces essential.

[handsofsteel]

Originally Posted by ads11

Always so fascinating to hear first hand experiences from people who've been on board! Please share more when you can!

I guess the requirement to limit the spread of fire makes most vessels intrinsically stuffy environments?

Incredible to think how sailors coped on a lot of vessels back in the day, not just IN, when it came to having to deal with no environmental systems as such.

In later ships, even ones procured from abroad, I take it the IN made sure to include a requirement for air conditioning for eg or is that only a very recent thing with the domestically built platforms?

Ships are not intrinsically stuffy. At least not these days if… the air conditioning is healthy. Notwithstanding, this doesn’t have anything to do with spread of fire. In case of a major fire, the ventilation systems are crash stopped. There are separate air flow regulating valves for this.

Back in the days, with air conditioning not being so robust (for that matter, even these days on steam ships), life was/is an ordeal with high temperatures and humidity. The machinery spaces on Steam ships are nothing less than saunas which cleanse every pore of your body. Having sailed on all “three” aircraft carriers and the LPD in various capacities, I can say, it’s not a place for those inclined towards comfort. I take the liberty of reproducing an anonymously penned piece which encapsulates a steam sailor’s plight even today

A Snipe’s Lament

Now each of us from time to time has gazed upon the sea
and watched the mighty warships pulling out to keep this country free.
And most of us have read a book or heard a lusty tale,
about these men who sail these ships through lightning, wind and hail.
But there's a place within each ship that legend's fail to teach.
It's down below the water-line and it takes a living toll
- - a hot metal living hell, that sailors call the "Hole."
It houses engines run with steam that makes the shafts go round.
A place of fire, noise, and heat that beats your spirits down.
Where boilers like a hellish heart, with blood of angry steam,
are molded gods without remorse, are nightmares in a dream.

Whose threat from the fires roar, is like a living doubt,
that at any moment with such scorn, might escape and crush you out.
Where turbines scream like tortured souls, alone and lost in Hell,
are ordered from above somewhere, they answer every bell.
The men who keep the fires lit and make the engines run,
are strangers to the light and rarely see the sun.
They have no time for man or God, no tolerance for fear,
their aspect pays no living thing a tribute of a tear.
For there's not much that men can do that these men haven't done,
beneath the decks, deep in the hole, to make the engines run.
And every hour of every day they keep the watch in Hell,
for if the fires ever fail their ship's a useless shell.

When ships converge to have a war upon an angry sea,
the men below just grimly smile at what their fate will be.
They're locked below like men fore-doomed, who hear no battle cry,
it's well assumed that if they're hit men below will die.
For every day's a war down there when gauges all read red,
twelve-hundred pounds of heated steam can kill you mighty dead.

So if you ever write their songs or try to tell their tale,
the very words would make you hear a fired furnace's wail.
And people as a general rule don't hear of these men of steel,
so little heard about this place that sailors call the "Hole."
But I can sing about this place and try to make you see,
the hardened life of the men down there, 'cause one of them is me.
I've seen these sweat-soaked heroes fight in superheated air,
to keep their ship alive and right, though no one knows they're there.

And thus they'll fight for ages on till warships sail no more,
amid the boiler's mighty heat and the turbine's hellish roar.
So when you see a ship pull out to meet a war-like foe,
remember faintly if you can, "The Men Who Sail Below."


With passage of time, air conditioning became more of a necessity in the radio and electronic spaces. In ships abroad, the heating component assumed primary significance during the harsh winters so they were also quick to adopt the concept of ACs. So, to answer your question, air conditioning was never an explicitly stated requirement of the IN while buying ships. It just happened. Older ships (Viraat when in service), the LPD, still resorted to individual package ACs in many living spaces. These days, on the latest platforms, especially those constructed indigenously, air conditioning is brilliant and deservedly so.

[Gannu_1]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

The venerable INS Rajput

In 2019, I had the privilege of visiting INS Rajput - the lead ship of the Rajput class at the Naval dockyard, Vizag. The intent of visiting the ship was to assess the feasibility of converting the ship to a floating accommodation unit for the officers and crew of other Naval ships after stripping off all the machinery and armaments inside and sealing off the overboard discharges. Plus, the staffs who served onboard the ship did not want the ship to be decommissioned, we were told.

Our phones were deposited at the security office at the one of the entry gates of the dockyard and we had a note and a pen to scribble down whatever we wanted. At this point, we did not even have a GA plan to check out the overall ship. Usually before a visit to a ship is planned, we would have access to the GA and other drawings so we could familiarise ourselves with the ship, know the areas of interests/conflicts, what not to miss, etc.

In 2019, the ship was over 39 years old - the oldest serving vessel of the Indian Navy back then. I've seen battered and rusted ships but the Rajput was anything but that. Clearly, the crew maintained her really well. Loads of cables, pipes and ducts were passing through the alleyway from one end to the other but they were all neatly tied, tagged and marked. Clean machinery rooms with the spick and span chequered flooring all-round. The gas turbine enclosures were massive! Plenty of tally plates on the machineries inscribed in Russian language. The hangar was a very unique and a complex one which would telescopically operate from the inner deck to the outer one with a lift-like arrangement - I was really blown away at this! Never seen anything like this before. The Rajput was also the first ship to be installed with the BrahMos missiles after serving as a trial platform for the test fires. The loading bays were empty during our visit however, as were the magazines. We spent an entire day in the ship, had lunch at the Wardroom with the XO and other officers - some very delectable dishes served by the crew including a cold chicken salad which I’ll never forget!

We returned home (Chennai) and were given access to the Russian hand drawn GA plans (unfortunately I cannot share them in public domain). I prepared the GA for the refurbishment plan and we submitted it to the Navy. But the plan was scrapped - perhaps this wasn’t a feasible idea to retain a hull that was close to 40 years old. This visit is however etched in my memories for life!

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by handsofsteel

Having sailed on all “three” aircraft carriers and the LPD in various capacities, I can say, it’s not a place for those inclined towards comfort. I take the liberty of reproducing an anonymously penned piece which encapsulates a steam sailor’s plight even today

A Snipe’s Lament

Thank you for sharing that most delightful poem. And you are right if a ship is hit the chances of the men in the engine room and other bowels of the ship getting out was slim on a good day. Thank you for serving in the IN and protecting the nation. Glad to have you on this thread. We eagerly look forward to hearing your anecdotes at least what you can share.

[handsofsteel]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you for sharing that most delightful poem. And you are right if a ship is hit the chances of the men in the engine room and other bowels of the ship getting out was slim on a good day. Thank you for serving in the IN and protecting the nation. Glad to have you on this thread. We eagerly look forward to hearing your anecdotes at least what you can share.

The privilege of serving is entirely mine sir. And if I may state the obvious, there are several of us here who really admire your passion of naval things and the way you set about educating many on all matters military. That is also a wonderful service. Kudos sir, Please take a bow

[handsofsteel]

Originally Posted by Gannu_1

In 2019, I had the privilege of visiting INS Rajput - the lead ship of the Rajput class at the Naval dockyard, Vizag.

In 2019, the ship was over 39 years old - the oldest serving vessel of the Indian Navy back then. I've seen battered and rusted ships but the Rajput was anything but that. Clearly, the crew maintained her really well. Loads of cables, pipes and ducts were passing through the alleyway from one end to the other but they were all neatly tied, tagged and marked. Clean machinery rooms with the spick and span chequered flooring all-round. The gas turbine enclosures were massive! Plenty of tally plates on the machineries inscribed in Russian language.
some very delectable dishes served by the crew including a cold chicken salad which I’ll never forget!
This visit is however etched in my memories for life!

Conveyed the above to the proud crew. This just made their day

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by handsofsteel

The privilege of serving is entirely mine sir. And if I may state the obvious, there are several of us here who really admire your passion of naval things and the way you set about educating many on all matters military. That is also a wonderful service. Kudos sir, Please take a bow

Thank you for your very kind words. In post#234 when you used the term SNF's I knew you were from the IN!!! Long ago you posted that the Soviet Typhoons were ~28,000 tonnes and not the 48,000 I'd mentioned. And you are right about that. I just went through your old posts and spotted that one which I realized I never responded to. Thank you for that correction. Things like this help keep our warship & aircraft threads factual, healthy and without jingoism or biases.

[sukhbirST]

Originally Posted by ads11

I take it the IN made sure to include a requirement for air conditioning for eg or is that only a very recent thing with the domestically built platforms?

Well the requirement is always from weapons and sensors. As the new age tech started coming and there being lot of data handling and automation, AC became an essential part. In fact if it is not as per the limits , there is a chance of malfunction or failure. Now there are alarms which indicate if the temperatures are within limits. Regarding heating part , it has been on all Russian or EU origin ships, though I personally experienced during trips to colder climates and realised how important it was.

[sukhbirST]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

And WOW!!!sukhbirST a warm welcome to you. thank you for joining this thread. We are honoured to have a veteran like you and would love to hear your anecdotes. My father served 40 years to 1990 and that's where my amateur's interest in warships arises from. We look forward to your posts and perspectives.

Sorry for replying late Sir. Have been an avid reader of your views on aviation subjects, though it is equally interesting to read other posts as well. There can be no better learning than from an highly experienced and knowledgeable person like you. Hope to continue learning and gaining knowledge. I served for 25 years and am now into the corporate world since last 10 years. Still admire your threads on IN ships and aircraft. A big thank you Sir

[V.Narayan]

Admiral R. Hari Kumar to be next Chief of Defence Staff

The present Naval Chief to take over as CDS. I guess a new Naval Chief will be announced soon. Good to see India getting sea minded at the national executive level. All the invaders who came by land by and large settled down in the Indian sub-continent and got absorbed in our vast plural society. The only ones to come by sea resisted getting absorbed and looted the most not once or twice but for 190 years.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Admiral R. Hari Kumar to be next Chief of Defence Staff

The present Naval Chief to take over as CDS. I guess a new Naval Chief will be announced soon. Good to see India getting sea minded at the national executive level. All the invaders who came by land by and large settled down in the Indian sub-continent and got absorbed in our vast plural society. The only ones to come by sea resisted getting absorbed and looted the most not once or twice but for 190 years.

Glad to see the Navy getting their due respect. They deserve the respect as despite receiving the least resources, they seem to be the most modernized and least import-dependent amongst our three forces. It's such an irony that while the Army struggling to induct an indigenous gun, the Navy is already building world-class frigates and destroyers that can stand toe-toe with western systems from the RAN and French Navy.

[ads11]

On the topic of CDS, quick question - is there any written rule, or even unwritten one, in place that says that the CDS holder will rotate between the three services? I'm not sure if the similar Chairman of the Joint Chiefs position in the US has any such rule, unwritten or otherwise, that sets in the rotation between the services.