[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

I cant, for the life of me understand how the Pilot in Command can have his license suspended because he did not approve a seat upgrade to a passenger mid-flight. First of all, it should not be any of the pilots business to look at who sits where unless it affects weight/balance and/or safety of the airplane. At 35000 feet, in cruise phase, should the pilot be worried about someone peeing on another or worry about the Outside air temp, fuel tank temp, route progress considering this is a ETOPS route, possibly going near polar latitudes. This is beyond ridiculous, frankly speaking.

It's nothing to do with the seat upgrade or change. It has to do with the fact that there was a unruly pax incident on board and neither the pilot in command nor the crew reported anything to the regulator. If they had filed an air safety report on this incident, nothing would have happened to the PIC.
Likewise that stupid fellow Tejaswi Surya opened the overwing emergency exit on the IndiGo ATR. Hopefully the crew have filed the relevant reports against this moron mantri.

[libranof1987]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

That Air India has completely lost the plot on this is the understatement of the year.

Looks like this is way worse. There seem to be internal communication informing the top brass of this incident, which they have earlier denied.

Air India’s senior management, including its chairman and managing director Campbell Wilson, were aware of the incident on Flight AI-102

The mail threads seen by HT include those sent to the head of inflight service department (IFSD), base operations in India, Lead HR head of IFSD, head of northern region of IFSD and of complaints (customer care), on November 27 by the cabin crew supervisor.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...239971335.html

To be made aware of this, and yet not do anything: publicly, or privately- enough to ensure this is handled to closure, is just baffling. The airline must realize it is a corporate now, not an entity protected (or hung out to dry) by Govt. machinery. A Tata no less, so they're going to be held against strict standards, for all the ethos Tata group is looked up for.

[ajay0612]

Originally Posted by KiloAlpha

I would disagree.

Hence, it does not matter what the facts of the case are and how it ends up being adjudicated. If Wells Fargo's name starts getting dragged in the muck, it will go into damage control mode and start taking action. Usually by firing the executives involved, and then a PR blitz if necessary.

There is something called 'suspension' in such cases. Outright dismissal based on heresay is excessive and unfair.

[fordday]

Originally Posted by volkman10

Air India fined Rs 30 lakh for urination incident, pilot-in-command suspended for 3 months.

Now that the DGCA has acted on the incident, doesn't it mean the incident is valid and 'urinator' is found guilty by authorities ?

His defence will be completely exposed now.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by fordday

Now that the DGCA has acted on the incident, doesn't it mean the incident is valid and 'urinator' is found guilty by authorities ?

His defence will be completely exposed now.

I was wondering the same. Apparently the DGCA has seen and heard enough evidence to come to this conclusion. I wonder if they overreacted? They have been often criticised as responding too slowly.

As you mention, it does make me wonder what such a verdict by the DGCA means in a wider legal context?

Jeroen

[thanixravindran]

Originally Posted by fordday

Now that the DGCA has acted on the incident, doesn't it mean the incident is valid and 'urinator' is found guilty by authorities ?

His defence will be completely exposed now.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I was wondering the same. Apparently the DGCA has seen and heard enough evidence to come to this conclusion. I wonder if they overreacted? They have been often criticised as responding too slowly.

As you mention, it does make me wonder what such a verdict by the DGCA means in a wider legal context?

Jeroen

I don't believe DGCA can pronounce the accused guilty as it is the job of courts in a criminal case. I believe DGCA would have investigated the procedural lapses by Airlines in handling incidents according to laid out procedure (or lack of) and awarded the penalty to airlines and its personal. Does DGCA publish investigation report for these type of incidents? I guess they do for air accidents. Probably aviation experts like Narayan can give insights.

[SR-71]

Originally Posted by ajay0612

There is something called 'suspension' in such cases. Outright dismissal based on heresy is excessive and unfair.

It’s not PSU or government job, he was employed in an MNC, suspension is an alien concept. Most employers, not just MNCs, expect you to ensure the company’s reputation is not put at stake, employment contracts are clear on this. If he was travelling on business, which is probably the case here, he is on the clock and the company is well within its rights to fire him. Maybe if it was on his personal dime, they would have thought twice before taking any action.

[charanreddy]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I was wondering the same. Apparently the DGCA has seen and heard enough evidence to come to this conclusion. I wonder if they overreacted? They have been often criticised as responding too slowly.

As you mention, it does make me wonder what such a verdict by the DGCA means in a wider legal context?

Jeroen

May I point you to the excellent observation by Hayek in post #164 ?

DGCA has resolved a civil matter while the courts are pursuing a criminal matter of a severe charge ( outraging the modesty of a woman) which was not warranted here (my take). Other offences yes, but this section no. I feel DGCA needs to make its rulings and findings public , which they will do if they followed due process and did not just succumb to public outcry !

The more I hear the more I feel there are a lot of fundamental questions that keep challenging the version of events as said by the complainant.

So,

1. the complainant gets peed upon in the business class of a flight where at least 20 passengers or more are present in immediate vicinity. A full bladder emptying takes atleast 30 seconds to a minute I am assuming.. how come no one noticed or stopped it.

2. She then calls the air hostess who don’t do anything for next two hours.. this is very unlikely.

3. The person supposed to have urinated apologises and agrees on a settle ment of $200. Come on you are travelling business class where the tickets costs may be upwards of 5000 USD and you accept only 200 for such a grave intrusion ! And more over you stay silent for a month !!

4. The person in the aisle seat adjacent to this passenger seems to be differing with the version of events above.


The above defy a rational sequence of events in many ways. As a country our justice system is extremely ineffective except in cases of public outcry where the hon. Judges overcompensate to pass quick , complying judgements to get the media off their backs and score brownie points ..

[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by libranof1987

The airline must realize it is a corporate now, not an entity protected (or hung out to dry) by Govt. machinery. A Tata no less, so they're going to be held against strict standards, for all the ethos Tata group is looked up for.

What is great about Tata? They are just like others. I don't know from where it got such reputation of being above others. Infact, there is no Indian company except Reliance Industries in the Forbes top 100 of the world's best employers: https://www.ndtv.com/business/forbes...forbes-3494891

[ajay0612]

Originally Posted by SR-71

It’s not PSU or government job, he was employed in an MNC, suspension is an alien concept. Most employers, not just MNCs, expect you to ensure the company’s reputation is not put at stake, employment contracts are clear on this. If he was travelling on business, which is probably the case here, he is on the clock and the company is well within its rights to fire him. Maybe if it was on his personal dime, they would have thought twice before taking any action.

Ohh. If that is how an MNC operates, it is not worth it working for it. It is grossly unfair to terminate without even calling for an explanation.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by ajay0612

Ohh. If that is how an MNC operates, it is not worth it working for it. It is grossly unfair to terminate without even calling for an explanation.

Welcome to the 'modern' way of doing business. A simple tweet, post or a video is enough to make you guilty without trial. Then it's your duty to prove yourself innocent. Even if you are proven innocent, it doesn't matter. Your job, life and status which were taken away will never be restored.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by SR-71

It’s not PSU or government job, he was employed in an MNC, suspension is an alien concept. Most employers, not just MNCs, expect you to ensure the company’s reputation is not put at stake, employment contracts are clear on this. If he was travelling on business, which is probably the case here, he is on the clock and the company is well within its rights to fire him. Maybe if it was on his personal dime, they would have thought twice before taking any action.

We dont know where he was based in. If it is India, you can ask a manager-level person to leave via discharge simpliciter. Otherwise one has to conduct an enquiry before outright dismissal.

[the.dogfather]

Originally Posted by ajay0612

There is something called 'suspension' in such cases. Outright dismissal based on heresay is excessive and unfair.

For an investment bank or retail bank, reputational loss is a big deal. This is one of the reason where many banks chose to not accept a regulatory issue and pay a higher fine rather than accept guilt or try to fight a case. They try their best not to get any negative publicity.

I remember once, when I was working for a bank, there was some strike in the city and we were asked to work from home. My internet was having some issue and I used to stay walking distance from the office, so I offered to login from office. My manager clearly informed me that it's fine if I do not login due to internet issue but not to venture out for office work. If something happens enroute, media will publish as so and so bank's employee ventured out for work on a hartal day. The reputation loss is a big risk and no bank would want that. The moment the bank's name started coming in news, they would try to cut any relation with the employee.
In India even a law suit won't gain much, but even if it had been in a country where the employee would win a huge law suit, the bank would rather pay a huge settlement out of court than let their name get dragged in the case.

[SR-71]

Originally Posted by the.dogfather

The reputation loss is a big risk and no bank would want that.

On a lighter note, in this case the per media posts the bank is Wells Fargo, if so what reputation are we talking about

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by charanreddy

DGCA has resolved a civil matter while the courts are pursuing a criminal matter of a severe charge ( outraging the modesty of a woman) which was not warranted here (my take). Other offences yes, but this section no. I feel DGCA needs to make its rulings and findings public , which they will do if they followed due process and did not just succumb to public outcry !
..

Legally, I doubt that a DGCA ruling can be considered resolving a civil matter. Far from an expert, but I thought the DGCA deals with aviation related stuff. So they have jurisdiction if you like on matters pertaining to aviation.

So the question remains, what is the basis of the DGCA ruling? Which (aviation) rules were broken by the commander and the airline? I believe the respective Indian pilot union wants to challenge this DGCA ruling.

Again, I am not an expert, but there have been far more serious and callous incidents aboard airplanes. Never heard of a civil aviation authority penalising pilots for those, unless there was a clear safety risk or risk to other passenger and so on.

So yes, would be great if the DGCA would publish their findings in these cases.

Not sure about India, but in most countries you can take civil cases to court as well. (E.g. Judge Judy does nothing but rulings on civil cases)

A civil case is, in my mind, a legal dispute between two parties. Big or small.

Jeroen