[julupani]

Originally Posted by torquecurve

The Safire65 that I have is also a VVT. I checked with a friend who is on the engineering side with Tata and he confirmed that VVT is present on both Safire engines which are helping them to give better FE figures even with such high kerb weights.

I checked the manual and it clearly mentions VVT engine.

I am sorry, but I still have my doubts. Already there is a contradiction between what your source says, and what is mentioned in the website. The website mentions VVT technology to be present only on the 90hp version, while your source says its on both.

Remember these engines are neither designed by Tata nor manufactured by them. They are designed by FIAT international, and manufactured by FIAT at their plant in Ranjangoan. And Fiat has not yet offered an engine with variable valve timing anywhere in the world, other than the MultiAir engines.

What I think may be the case, is that some confusion has occurred and mistakes have been made by Tata here. Fiat may be using the variable inlet manifold length system in India too, though they have not yet advertised it. And this has been confused by Tata as a variable valve timing system.

[indivic]

Originally Posted by julupani

What I think may be the case, is that some confusion has occurred and mistakes have been made by Tata here. Fiat may be using the variable inlet manifold length system in India too, though they have not yet advertised it. And this has been confused by Tata as a variable valve timing system.

The Tata speak for the Safire 65 was CVCP - Continuous Variable Cam Phaser. This was how it was advertised when the Vista was launched. I remember this very well, since a friend of mine has a Safire, and the salesgirl was tom-tomming this feature without knowing what it was.

Currently the brochure mentions VVT for the Safire 90 alone. It is not clear whether the Safire 65 still gets CVCP or not.

What remains open is how much advanced is the VVT , the verdict is still out on the other thread though

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-1-4-fire.html

The Multiair engines have hydraulically actuated system with full control over valve lift and timing, but I guess it is still only on the inlets.

Most likely the implementation in the Safire is like you have mentioned since there is never a kick up the backside while driving the Safire like in a Honda, so there is probably no "hot" cam.

[torquecurve]

Originally Posted by julupani

I am sorry, but I still have my doubts. Already there is a contradiction between what your source says, and what is mentioned in the website. The website mentions VVT technology to be present only on the 90hp version, while your source says its on both.

Remember these engines are neither designed by Tata nor manufactured by them. They are designed by FIAT international, and manufactured by FIAT at their plant in Ranjangoan. And Fiat has not yet offered an engine with variable valve timing anywhere in the world, other than the MultiAir engines.

What I think may be the case, is that some confusion has occurred and mistakes have been made by Tata here. Fiat may be using the variable inlet manifold length system in India too, though they have not yet advertised it. And this has been confused by Tata as a variable valve timing system.

My apologies, it is CVCP and not VVT. They are present on both Safires. They do not advertise it so and I dont know why.

[julupani]

CVCP is the most basic method of changing the timing. It is the most basic way of changing the way the inlet valve opens. All you do is rotate the cam by a certain angle. Thus in this case, if an valve opens earlier than usual, it will also close earlier that usual.

Modern VVT units generally use multiple cam lobes, or use variable lift together with cam phasing.

The intelligent port resizer is what I was talking about, that is variable intake manifold length, which has nothing to do with valve timing.

The 90hp 1.4L version made in India, has CVCP and Variable inlet manifold system, along with a few other things like an EGR system. The 65hp 1.2L version has the CVCP, but no variable inlet manifold or EGR.

But I dont think you can compare this with Honda's VTEC, or Suzuki's VVT, or Toyota's VVTL systems, all of which are a step ahead of the CVCP technology of FIAT's previous generation engines that are available in India. In the same breath, FIAT's MultiAir system is a step ahead of all the above mentioned technologies.

Seems like Tata is stretching their advertising here. And they seem to have taken the addition of the variable inlet manifold on the 90hp version as a VVT system.

[harimakesh]

Originally Posted by antz.bin

Just got a call from Tata Motors Showroom @ Wakdewadi Pune. There is a test drive mela especially for the newly launched vehicles Aria and Vista (Not INDICA Vista ) in the ground behind Agriculture College, Shivajinagar, Pune - 5. This will be held this Saturday and Sunday. Quite a lot of freebies going even for the new Launch. You get into a lucky draw by taking a test drive. You get 30k exchange bonus if you exchange your old car. AND a Tank full of fuel in your new car if you book at the mela.

@Harimakesh Vista VX gets ABS and EBD but no airbags

What ZX gets extra is the Airbags, the MID and the Alloys. Still 60 grand extra is not worth it.

ABS with EBD on VX is sufficient active safety with large 10cm brake boosters prevent the need for activation of airbags. other safety features offered on VX variant such as Engine immobilizer, demister, side intrusion beams on all doors, reare wipe and wash, Front & rear fog lamps offer a satisfactory level of overall safety package for an average Joes kind of the target audience.

Instead of inflated ex-showroom prices at launch and offer large discounts to lure buyers it makes sense to offer best VFM ex-show room prices which will result in reduced registration+insurance charges for the end-user.

With TATA's recent pricing on all their products are simply EXPENSIVE.

It seems to me that TATAs are on a mission to erase their VFM car maker tag that they earned so far.

[download2live]

Today I had the chance to sit in the new Vista in showroom. VX version.
From front its now almost impossible to make difference between this an Manza. Save for the chrome strips on on Vista bumper. Same strip is there running along the sides too.
The barrel headlights are looking good and the car actually looks larger from front. The Tata lettering on the boot looks good. But as many have pointed out this was a chance to transform the car a bit from rear. A chance not taken.

The interiors are decent. The switches and other things still have some way to go to reach that level of refinement. But at this price level there should be no complains. The car is loaded with features. Sad to see it clocking less numbers. I think time has come to change the Vista appearance radically. Especially from rear. Things will start falling in place.

OT: I sat in Nano for first time. And I am surprised at the amount of space it packs. Everything is good. Just need to let go of that hideous speaker box. And yes, my biggest complain, its AutoRickshaw sound. Remove the speaker and put that money in a decent muffler, silencer or something like that. With driver seat fully stretched back, when I sat in rear my knees did not touch the front seat. They do in Punto.

[julupani]

Hadn't really gone through the prices in detail. But I did just now, and I got a very rude shock!!!

How is the 1.4 petrol costlier across the board than the 1.3 diesel???!!!!!

Fiat Punto 1.3MJD is 50k costlier than the 1.4P, but the Vista Quadrajet is 20k cheaper than the Safire 90.

What's the story here??? Why are Tata charging so much for the Safire90??

There is difference of 90k between the Safire65 and Safire90, while FIAT charge only 50k extra for the 1.4P versus the 1.2P.

[VeluM]

Originally Posted by julupani

Hadn't really gone through the prices in detail. But I did just now, and I got a very rude shock!!!

How is the 1.4 petrol costlier across the board than the 1.3 diesel???!!!!!

Fiat Punto 1.3MJD is 50k costlier than the 1.4P, but the Vista Quadrajet is 20k cheaper than the Safire 90.

What's the story here??? Why are Tata charging so much for the Safire90??

There is difference of 90k between the Safire65 and Safire90, while FIAT charge only 50k extra for the 1.4P versus the 1.2P.

The 1.4 litre petrol probably has two additional costs associated with it:

1. Increased tax due to the > 1.2L engine
2. Increased cost of engine/royalty paid to Fiat for the engine

These can be the only two reasons for the cost difference, unless someone at Tata decided that this would be a low volume - high profit model

[julupani]

Originally Posted by VeluM

The 1.4 litre petrol probably has two additional costs associated with it:

1. Increased tax due to the > 1.2L engine
2. Increased cost of engine/royalty paid to Fiat for the engine

These can be the only two reasons for the cost difference, unless someone at Tata decided that this would be a low volume - high profit model

Increased tax or increased cost of engine is not really much of a point, since FIAT charges 50k extra for the 1.4P instead of the 1.2P on the same version.

As for royalty paid to Fiat, remember of the 12 trim and engine combos on the Vista presently available, 10 have engines provided by FIAT. Only the LS TDi and LX TDi variants get a Tata engine. So why the extra cost only on the Safire90?? I dont think FIAT would want so much more royalty just for the 1.4L engine.

And anyway, I doubt royalty paid to FIAT is a major cost, since FIAT receives a lot from Tata for giving out its engines.

The pricing is also crazy from another point of view. The Vista Safire90 GVX and Safire90 GZX variants are now actually slightly costlier than Punto 1.4P Emotion and 1.4P Emotion Pack models. Why would anyone want to buy the Vista over Punto, unless you have 4 six-footers travelling together in the car regularly.

[TeddyBear]

[ Why would anyone want to buy the Vista over Punto, unless you have 4 six-footers travelling together in the car regularly.[/quote]

You have got the answer :-)

+ Fiat's image among the Indian common consumers ( Not the enthusiasts), who wants top end model with 90ps power. Anyway it is not selling like Swift zxi but Vista have a model to match.

For somebody can live with 65bhp, then there is affordable 1.2 saffire.

They should have launched Vista QJD 90 bhp Sports model.

[julupani]

Originally Posted by TeddyBear

[ Why would anyone want to buy the Vista over Punto, unless you have 4 six-footers travelling together in the car regularly.

You have got the answer :-)

+ Fiat's image among the Indian common consumers ( Not the enthusiasts), who wants top end model with 90ps power. Anyway it is not selling like Swift zxi but Vista have a model to match.

For somebody can live with 65bhp, then there is affordable 1.2 saffire.

They should have launched Vista QJD 90 bhp Sports model.

What answer???

Is Fiat's image much worse than Tata's?? And remember both these cars are sold in the same showroom.

In my view less than 1 in 10 people who would be willing to buy the 1.4P Punto would want to go over to the Vista. But almost all who would want to buy a car like the Vista Safire90 would prefer the Punto 1.4.

Remember the question here is not of whether either the Punto 1.4 or the Vista Safire90 are likely to sell in large number. The question I am asking is the logic behind Tata's pricing of the Safire90 range, which seems pointlessly over the top.

[RajaTaurus]

Do you want to see review of new Tata Indica Vista,
Click here for a surprise.!
New Tata Indica Vista - The Times of India
A Blooper of different kind. (Check out comments)

[seby_v]

Originally Posted by RajaTaurus

Do you want to see review of new Tata Indica Vista,
Click here for a surprise.!
New Tata Indica Vista - The Times of India
A Blooper of different kind. (Check out comments)

Looks like TOI is speechless about the new Indica Vista .

[GTO]

Originally Posted by RajaTaurus

Do you want to see review of new Tata Indica Vista,
Click here for a surprise.!
New Tata Indica Vista - The Times of India
A Blooper of different kind. (Check out comments)

Thanks for sharing! Nothing like a hearty laugh on a workday afternoon. The comments are TOO GOOD.

BTW, our Vista review will be up in 48 hours.

[Latheesh]

Spotted a new refreshed Vista in Ecity today morning. Looked very Manzaish, rear does does not look different from current one.