[shireeshjacobs]

Hi. Ive got a petrol polo 2011 with 30k on the odo. Im doing about 40k a day in bangalore with probably three 1000km long distance trips. Im just wondering if i should consider buying a 2nd hand diesel at this stage given the rising diesel prices. I know i should have bought a diesel long time back! Very confused. If i sell the polo I would prefer getting an suv and hope to top up and have a budget of 5.5 to 6L for the next purchase. Please advise. Diesel or no diesel. I love the driveability and responsiveness of my polo and am very particular about this aspect of driving pleasure.

[sa_kiran]

Impose 30% cess on diesel cars, panel tells Supreme Court - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/h...w/30180391.cms

NEW DELHI: Senior advocate Harish Salve startled the Supreme Court on Monday by presenting a report which established a direct link between death of 3,000 children annually in Delhi to the increased pollution level attributable mainly to more diesel cars on the roads.

Salve said subsidized diesel price was almost at par with CNG, leading to a massive increase in sale of diesel cars. As a result, emissions have directly contributed in taking the ambient air quality in Delhi much beyond the danger level, especially the level of harmful respirable suspended particulate matter (RSPM).

[jessie007]

Originally Posted by shireeshjacobs

Hi. Ive got a petrol polo 2011 with 30k on the odo. Im doing about 40k a day in bangalore with probably three 1000km long distance trips. Im just wondering if i should consider buying a 2nd hand diesel at this stage given the rising diesel prices. I know i should have bought a diesel long time back! Very confused. If i sell the polo I would prefer getting an suv and hope to top up and have a budget of 5.5 to 6L for the next purchase. Please advise. Diesel or no diesel. I love the driveability and responsiveness of my polo and am very particular about this aspect of driving pleasure.

I would say, stick to your petrol Polo for a year, as a petrol VW hatch will not have a good resale value - so you might end up losing money while trying to save. It is better to use the vehicle a little longer and recoup some cost. See how the petrol / diesel price scenario pans out till then.

I personally wouldn't recommend second hand diesel vehicle, I would go for a new vehicle even if it is the lowest variant within my budget. There are options for you in the 6 lakhs price range, which you can look at. Now that Polo is supposed to be coming with airbags only, it might be priced higher, so it will be out of your range, as will be the i20. You can look at the rest including Grand i10 and upcoming Tata Bolt as well. Rest assured modern diesels will also give you driving pleasure and you'll like to ride the wave of torque on offer.

If it is an SUV that you really want, other than the current option of Ford Ecosport only, there might be new entrants after a year or so, but diesel variants of these urban SUV's will be well-over 6 lakh rupees.

[shireeshjacobs]

Thanks Jessie,

I was thinking of a 2nd hand SUV such as an old Safari or Scorpio. However, I note your point on retaining my Polo and getting full value out of it.

[asr245]

Got this as a forward in an email so not sure about how authentic it is.

Delhi’s air on average last year was laced with double the toxic particles per cubic meter being reported in Beijing

New Delhi: Molecular biologist George Easow’s move to India to start a clinical diagnostics business lasted just three weeks before he was convinced to return to the UK.
The convincing was done by his seven-month-old daughter Fiona. Within days of moving to New Delhi, the child was wheezing and gasping for air because of smog. “She could hardly breathe,” said her father.
Fiona was kept indoors and put on medication. Nothing worked. “We had to make a call,” Easow said, adding her symptoms disappeared once back in the UK and haven’t returned.
For the 16.8 million residents of India’s capital, the wheezing continues. The bad news is it’s going to get worse.
New Delhi isn’t alone as cities across the nation suffer from some of the worst air quality in the world. That’s costing the country Rs.1.1 trillion in shortened life spans of productive members of the urban population each year, according to a June World Bank report.
While Beijing and Shanghai make the headlines for air pollution caused by factory smokestacks burning coal, Delhi residents get their smog right in the face from cars and trucks running on cheap diesel.
India subsidizes sales of the fuel to the equivalent of $15 billion a year, encouraging purchases of diesel vehicles that can pump out exhaust gases with 10 times the carcinogenic particles found in petrol exhausts.
The result: Delhi’s air on average last year was laced with double the toxic particles per cubic meter being reported in Beijing, leading to respiratory diseases, lung cancer and heart attacks.
‘No doubt’
“I have no doubt, 100%, that diesel exhaust is contributing to a rise in asthma, respiratory illnesses and hospitalizations,” said Dr. T.K. Joshi, director of the Centre for Occupational and Environmental Health in Delhi at Maulana Azad Medical College.
“Diesel exhaust is a carcinogen,” Joshi said in a 5 February interview, referencing a report by the World Health Organization in October.
Diesel passenger vehicles accounted for 49% of all new cars sold in India last year, up from a third in 2008, according to the International Council on Clean Transportation, a not-for-profit known as the ICCT. The number of new passenger vehicles sold each year may almost double to 5 million by 2020 and the share of diesel models is surging as the fuel sells at a 24% discount to petrol. Beside diesel being cheaper—it also provides more mileage than petrol, adding to the economic attractions of vehicles running on the fuel.
Nine years
In comparison, only 0.5% of China’s new passenger cars run on diesel, according to Germany’s Bosch Group, which makes auto exhaust cleaning systems for the fuel.
Benchmark zero-grade diesel sells in Beijing for 7.6 yuan per liter, a 6% premium to petrol, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
India’s diesel fleet, which runs on emissions standards as much as nine years behind Europe, will remain on the roads for years to come even if tougher rules are introduced, said Anup Bandivadekar, India program director for the ICCT.
“The future implications are what make the problem so worrisome,” said Bandivadekar.
Air particulate pollution causes more than 116,000 deaths annually in India, hitting the younger, most productive members of the population the hardest, according to Muthukumara S. Mani, senior environmental economist at the World Bank.
Lethal particles
Carmakers from Daimler AG (DAI)’s Mercedes-Benz to Maruti Suzuki India Ltd (MSIL) to General Motors Co. (GM) have all introduced new diesel models since 2010.
In India, diesel exhaust systems don’t come with equipment mandated in Europe to scrub exhaust gases of lethal particle emissions. The reason for that comes back to the fuel itself: Oil refineries produce diesel with levels of sulfur that would ruin the exhaust-scrubbing equipment.
The automobile industry will have “no difficulty” in installing exhaust technologies once India raises emission standards and fuel quality, the Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers (Siam) said in an emailed response to questions.
“General Motors is committed to following all emission requirements and agrees with Siam,” said P. Balendran, spokesman for the automaker in India, in a 24 February email.
“The auto industry has been asking for a single regime of fuel and emission norms across the country,” said C.V. Raman, executive director, engineering at Maruti Suzuki. A move to current European standards for the fuel would reduce emissions by as much as 80% from present levels, he said.
Daimler’s India unit didn’t respond to an email and a phone call requesting comment.
Little incentive
Hindustan Petroleum Corp. Ltd (HPCL), Indian Oil Corp. Ltd (IOCL) and Bharat Petroleum Corp. Ltd (BPCL), state-run oil refiners, have little incentive to invest in technology to lower sulfur in the fuel as they lose money on every litre of diesel sold.
Upgrading one refinery to make Euro 5 equivalent fuel, Europe’s current standard, will cost Rs.2,500 crore, S. Roy Choudhury, chairman of Hindustan Petroleum, said on 14 January.
“Diesel prices need to be increased to cut demand,” he said. “That’s the primary issue.”
Yet, the government policy of subsidizing diesel is unlikely to end soon as it would raise prices during an election year.
Like asbestos
Diesel engines emit a pollutant known as PM2.5, or airborne particles and liquid droplets measuring less than 2.5 micrometers or one-thirtieth the width of a strand of hair.
Because they’re so small, they penetrate deep into the lungs and pass into the blood stream, according to the US Environmental Protection Agency.
In October, the World Health Organization classified PM2.5 as a Group 1 carcinogen, similar to asbestos and tobacco, saying exposure can cause lung cancer, complicate births, and increase the risk of bladder cancer. Short-term spikes can kill, triggering strokes, heart failure and asthma attacks, according to the American Lung Association.
In 2013, the annual average concentration of PM2.5 in New Delhi was 173 micrograms per cubic meter, compared with 89.5 micrograms in Beijing, according to data from India’s Central Pollution Control Board and the Beijing Municipal Environmental Monitoring Center. The threshold for average annual exposure as recommended by the WHO is 10 micrograms.
Susheel Kumar, chairman of the government’s Central Pollution Control Board didn’t respond to emails and phone calls seeking comment.
Street toxins
Fine particulate matter is also produced in India by coal-fired power plants, diesel generators, and cooking fuel.
“But the major source in the cities is vehicles,” said Sumit Sharma, a fellow at The Energy and Resources Institute in New Delhi.
“That’s dangerous because it’s happening closer to the breathing level of people,” said Sharma. “It’s not happening from a 220-meter high chimney but at the level of one meter.”
The World Health Organization uses data for larger, PM10 or 10-micrometer particles as a proxy. Its database for 2003 to 2010 shows annual average pollution in Delhi and Mumbai exceeded that of Beijing and Shanghai.
Anumita Roychowdhury, head of the air pollution programme at the Centre for Science and Environment think-tank in New Delhi, agrees on the reason why: “The diesel subsidies have filled up your city with millions of tail pipes spewing carcinogens.”

[StarScream]

Originally Posted by asr245

Got this as a forward in an email so not sure about how authentic it is.

it is from here:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...n-beijing.html

[aaggoswami]

Its clear that the Technology is available with manufacturers, but we are not ready with high quality fuel supplies. Why cant we have similar level of quality available across the country ? This all started way back in 2000 when MPFI was brought into as a compulsion by MSIL.

Its over a decade that we knew high quality fuel will be required in future. Nothing has happened and what is expected out of this report ? That people stop buying diesel cars ? Or stop using cars ?

These reports do not help any cause. All is known universally, only thing is when to implement. The report mentioned here mainly blames, directly or indirectly, diesel cars which is what hurts me the most. Why blame car or car owners ? When was last time CVs were checked for emissions ? Railway diesel emissions ?

Even if prices of diesel and petrol are equal, people are still likely to buy diesel for its efficiency. And manufacturers, may be due to higher margins, will market diesel cars citing higher FE. A 1.0 ltr petrol will most likely return FE equal or lower than a 1.2 modern diesel. Additional torque is added benefit which certainly helps in overall driving experience specially in full load situations with A/.C ( referring to small cars ).

[methecupid]

The debate between petrol and diesel will go on till the cows come home and probably even when they are ready to go out the next day. If I maybe allowed to sight a simple example, an average middle class family might want to change their car in 4 years. The car would have run around 50,000 kms till then. Assuming an avg. mileage of 11/lt for petrol and 16/lt for the diesels, and current rates of Rs.82 and Rs.67 respectively, the total difference between fuel costs till the end of the 4th year is going to be around 150,000.

Diesel cars cost 100,000 to start with, financing cost of 10.5% for four years and the additional maintenance cost of Diesel cars will still mean the Petrol car will be more economical (or atleast not as woefully bad as some of us think)

[AmazeGuru]

I believe an 'informed' car buyer would look beyond the numbers (cost of ownership, maintenance etc.,) when deciding to buy a new car. Given the improvement in road conditions over last few years, people would not think twice before taking their cars out on the highway. Besides excellent fuel efficiency, Diesel cars these days are more 'fun' to drive on a highway than majority of the petrol cars.

Having driven a lot of petrol and few diesel cars, I personally prefer driving a diesel on a highway. The improvement in diesel engine technology these days and enabling the diesel cars to complete with petrol counterparts even with the in-city driving (Ex: Amaze)

Also, the maintenance cost of diesel cars has significantly reduced over the years and it is almost comparable to that of petrol cars.

So, in my opinion, if one were to buy a car purely based on the numbers (calculation), he/she would probably end up compromising on the 'fun' of driving the car.

[StarScream]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

Its clear that the Technology is available with manufacturers, but we are not ready with high quality fuel supplies. Why cant we have similar level of quality available across the country ? This all started way back in 2000 when MPFI was brought into as a compulsion by MSIL.

Its over a decade that we knew high quality fuel will be required in future. Nothing has happened and what is expected out of this report ? That people stop buying diesel cars ? Or stop using cars ?

These reports do not help any cause. All is known universally, only thing is when to implement. The report mentioned here mainly blames, directly or indirectly, diesel cars which is what hurts me the most. Why blame car or car owners ? When was last time CVs were checked for emissions ? Railway diesel emissions ?

Even if prices of diesel and petrol are equal, people are still likely to buy diesel for its efficiency. And manufacturers, may be due to higher margins, will market diesel cars citing higher FE. A 1.0 ltr petrol will most likely return FE equal or lower than a 1.2 modern diesel. Additional torque is added benefit which certainly helps in overall driving experience specially in full load situations with A/.C ( referring to small cars ).

You need concerted government action to push for higher emission norms. Forget Euro 5 India hasn't even adopted Euro 4 across the country (only in select metros). As the story says till refiners are losing money on diesel sales they have no incentive to upgrade their facilities.

I find your questioning of the report amusing. It is explaining cause and effect - Why shoot the messenger? And where does it blame car owners? It clearly says the fuel efficiency and lower cost of diesel are what makes it attractive. If anything, it blames the government for letting things slide.

Why not blame railways or other diesel users? Because, unless you live next to a railway track, they aren't spewing the muck in your face where you live.

I know a little about these things so I can tell you why car diesel engines are deadlier. In an attempt to meet middling emission standards such as ours, they try to burn the fuel as completely as possible and produce the fine particulate that is a carcinogen and is invisible. Cruder diesel engines produce the not so fine visible smoke, which is also bad but not as insidious.

[rdhawan15]

Originally Posted by methecupid

Diesel cars cost 100,000 to start with, financing cost of 10.5% for four years and the additional maintenance cost of Diesel cars will still mean the Petrol car will be more economical (or atleast not as woefully bad as some of us think)

And, there is an increasing chance of a diesel cess in the offing on new vehicles. Nonetheless, it is clear that the differential between diesel and petrol prices has got to become narrower. This makes for a strong case for petrol cars.

[methecupid]

Originally Posted by AmazeGuru

Also, the maintenance cost of diesel cars has significantly reduced over the years and it is almost comparable to that of petrol cars.

Maybe I am old schooled, but diesels may have gotten better over the years - but considering it to be on the same keel as petrol is stretching it. Point in discussion, having two VWs at home, the diesel car has had clutch changes every now and then, the petrol one runs just as smoothly as ever.

Maybe experiences differ, am just stating my belief.

[jessie007]

• After doing all the calculations, most people usually forget to take the resale value into account. Resale value is an important factor and in most cases diesel variants have a significantly higher resale value, even if they have higher mileage as compared to the petrol variant.
• The higher cost of ownership of a diesel vehicle w.r.t to service costs are exaggerated - agreed the costs are higher but they are not significant enough as the comparison in my initial post portrays. Even if the difference is say Rs 10,000 over a period of 50,000 kms driving, it is not that significant, if we consider it as a percentage of the purchase price of the vehicle. Please check this thread where I've compared realistic service cost of hatchbacks (Swift is the best example):
  
  http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...tures-etc.html
• The current loss that oil marketing companies are suffering due to the lower/subsidized cost of diesel is around Rs 9-10 per litre. Even if we take this into account there will still be a difference between the price of petrol & diesel:
  
  Diesel price in Delhi: Rs 54.91 + 10 = Rs 65
  Petrol price in Delhi: Rs 72.43

[StarScream]

Originally Posted by jessie007

• After doing all the calculations, most people usually forget to take the resale value into account. Resale value is an important factor and in most cases diesel variants have a significantly higher resale value, even if they have higher mileage as compared to the petrol variant.
• The higher cost of ownership of a diesel vehicle w.r.t to service costs are exaggerated - agreed the costs are higher but they are not significant enough as the comparison in my initial post portrays. Even if the difference is say Rs 10,000 over a period of 50,000 kms driving, it is not that significant, if we consider it as a percentage of the purchase price of the vehicle. Please check this thread where I've compared realistic service cost of hatchbacks (Swift is the best example):
  
  http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...tures-etc.html
• The current loss that oil marketing companies are suffering due to the lower/subsidized cost of diesel is around Rs 9-10 per litre. Even if we take this into account there will still be a difference between the price of petrol & diesel:
  
  Diesel price in Delhi: Rs 54.91 + 10 = Rs 65
  Petrol price in Delhi: Rs 72.43

Aren't we missing the woods for the trees? What good is resale if you're dead?

Also diesel will not be cheaper if its not subsidized and the fuel is upgraded to the ultra-low sulfur variety needed for Euro 5 engines to come close to petrol emissions. Simply because ULSD takes more crude oil to produce a liter of fuel, compared with Euro 5 gasoline.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by methecupid

Maybe I am old schooled, but diesels may have gotten better over the years - but considering it to be on the same keel as petrol is stretching it. Point in discussion, having two VWs at home, the diesel car has had clutch changes every now and then, the petrol one runs just as smoothly as ever.

Maybe experiences differ, am just stating my belief.

It does boil down how the car is maintained and driven around. Not taking your example but will take my personal experience here.

Diesel's that were of the older generation were painful to run and maintain. We had a 1968 made Ambassador at home that used to leak, trouble during trips, rainy season and the car never ran. All such problems made my dad 'Anti-diesel' and from then on he was a petrol head totally. But only till the need of a diesel car in my family came up, thanks to me, the daily travel is 110 kms so using a petrol car was crazy by the thought. to tackle this we bought a Ritz VDi in 2010 @ 6L OTR and sold it in December 2013 for 3.3L (1,07,959kms covered). I can proudly say ZERO maintenance was done other than brake pads and 2 sets of tyres. Rest all was STOCK.

Seeing this development my dad's attitude towards the modern day diesels have changed and he has accepted the same. He used to drive an SX4 VXi but now he drives an Ertiga ZDi. Thanks to the Ritz diesel that changed the attitude.

This is just my personal example and such cases who have changed from petrol to diesel will be many thanks to the 1.3 MJD/DDiS.

Anurag.